snowleopard

Well Leo, wherever he may be, will have to address that concern.

@SOUL But this dualism can be transcended, as Shankara attempts to do in the quote I posted above, as it points to the 'Dreamer' and its 'Dream' as being not two, and thus the apparent real/unreal dichotomy is resolved.

@7thLetter This point has been addressed in other threads related to Leo's 'Life is a Dream' video, and of course I can only give an interpretation of what he's getting at, but I see it as an allegory intended to loosen the grip of the materialist paradigm and the idea that there is a mind-independent world of matter 'out there', and that consciousness is an emergent property of that world of matter. So to turn that around, and place consciousness as the fundamental essence of being and the source of all phenomena, it may be useful to see that all phenomena are the emanations of a cosmic consciousness, and therefore can be called dreamlike in essence. So in that regard it may be a useful pointer. But, of course, like all such pointers and models, it must be seen in the context of the opening few lines of the Tao Te Ching: "The Tao that can be told, is not the eternal Tao." But if it's taken for what it's intended to achieve, and it serves that purpose, then it can be let go of without getting hung up in the allegory.

I can only suggest to follow a path that speaks to your heart. Some rational types seem to need an intellectual verification of the heartfelt intuitive insights, in order to fully commit, and that may be where philosophy comes in. But it certainly isn't imperative.

Brahman alone is real The world is a dream Brahman is the world

@Joseph Maynor Sure, let's drop it, no problem.

Yes, hence no conflict mode.

@Joseph Maynor Used to be in conflict mode too, so I can empathize.

@Joseph Maynor If it were taken personally then where is the trigger switch for conflict mode? Anyway, maybe I could get into impersonal development

You seem to have mistaken me for someone you imagine me to be

@7thLetter Another example of how old this insight is, paraphrasing Shankara ... Brahman alone is real. The world is a dream, Brahman is the world.

@7thLetter Leo did not come up with this insight ... It is as old as the most fundamental original spiritual insights, including the Vedas and Buddhism ... from wiki: According to contemporary teacher Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, all appearances perceived during the whole life of an individual, through all senses, including sounds, smells, tastes and tactile sensations in their totality, are like a big dream. It is claimed that, on careful examination, the dream of life and regular nightly dreams are not very different, and that in their essential nature there is no difference between them. The non-essential difference between the dreaming state and ordinary waking experience is that the latter is more concrete and linked to attachment; the dreaming experience while sleeping is slightly detached. Also according to this teaching, there is a correspondence between the states of sleep and dream and our experiences when we die. After experiencing the intermediate state of bardo, an individual comes out of it, a new karmic illusion is created and another existence begins. This is how transmigration happens. According to Dzogchen teachings, the energy of an individual is essentially without form and free from duality. However, karmic traces contained in the individual's mindstream give rise to two kinds of forms: forms that the individual experiences as his or her body, voice and mind forms that the individual experiences as an external environment. What appears as a world of permanent external phenomena, is the energy of the individual him or herself. There is nothing completely external or separate from the individual. Everything that manifests in the individual's field of experience is a continuum. This is the 'Great Perfection' that is discovered in Dzogchen practice.[8] It is possible to do yogic practice such as Dream Yoga and Yoga Nidra whilst dreaming, sleeping and in other bardo states of trance. In this way the yogi can have a very strong experience and with this comes understanding of the dream-like nature of daily life. This is also very relevant to diminishing attachments, because they are based on strong beliefs that life's perceptions such as objects are real and as a consequence: important. If one really understands what Buddha Shakyamuni meant when he said that everything is (relatively) unreal, then one can diminish attachments and tensions. The teacher advises that the realization that life is only a big dream can help us finally liberate ourselves from the chains of various emotions, different kinds of attachment and the chains of ego. Then we have the possibility of ultimately becoming enlightened.[1] Different schools and traditions in other strains of Tibetan Buddhism give different explanations of what is called "reality"

@MarkusSweden There are enough synonyms that I may just manage to get by. How a science, and a cultural ethos, based in idealism would change 'the world' is interesting to speculate about. We may never really know for sure, unless it comes to pass, as it may be beyond what the current paradigm can even imagine.

It just means uncovering the subconscious self-identities and their emotional attachments that compose the shadow, finding their roots, investigating and deconstructing them, so that they are seen for what they truly are. As long as they remain subconscious and repressed they just keep recreating the same patterns of behavior, over and over.

An alternative map to materialism would be some version of idealism, and there are quite a few versions to choose from -- unless you dream up your own.

As long as the science in question is fixated in a physicalist paradigm that assumes consciousness is an emergent epiphenomenon of brain activity, and/or certain arrangements of matter, then whatever it is telling us about consciousness can only be filtered through that mindset. A science based in idealism would tell us that consciousness is the fundamental essence that is the source of all phenomena, including brain activity. That switch of mindset would be paramount to any deeper scientific investigation.

@perlita Shadow stuff coming into the light, pleading to be set free. The more light, the more it will be exposed. Resistance is futile. Who is that 'toddler'? That hidden self-identity? Investigate ... Let it be heard ... Then it can be kissed goodbye.

The one that is worried about that is another egoic self-identity. Absent that, who or what is worried about that?

Well, the limitation may be the rule-set of the 'dream' of Cosmic Consciousness that its alters must conform to while exploring that given consensus 'drealm.'

Is this what it feels like to be on display on a stage -- or in a cage --- for a bunch of bored popcorn munchers to get their kicks? Well there ya go ... glad this chat wasn't a waste after all

@SOUL Or many ways that the infinite expresses as 'you' ... maybe the same diff

@Patang I wonder, would the dispelling of irritable 'self-identification' syndrome also be relevant to the topic 'What enlightenment feels like?' I'd at least hope that that could be disposed of

@SOUL Shape-shifting ape

@Shin Perhaps this chat is relevant to the question of problematic self-identification as someone who is upset, even by some playful interaction, and about how such self-identification may be able to fall away, to reveal that which is not upset ... ever. Or must every discussion fit your definition of what's relevant?

Umm ... Then who cares that it's not in PM mode?