snowleopard

It's only enlightenment if there's been the realization that this Joker doesn't exist, except as a fictional character, like everyone else

I can't really speak to specific body sensations, energy movements, perceptual shifts, etc. Assuming you are in good health, these will come and go. But going into story-mode about them isn't going to help the practice, and is just a counter-productive distraction, and totally optional. Focus on what remains when the sensations pass, without any story about it, that which is ever-present, the awareness of all things that pass. Rupert Spira is quite effective at pointing to this IMO ...

He is one who has journeyed the path of much suffering, addiction, hitting rock bottom, etc -- which can be seen in his countenance. I suppose his approach appeals to others on that path, and the path of recovery, as he can relate to those perspectives. He came through AA, and possibly (not sure) studied A Course In Miracles, and has some informal zen background. If you're wondering if his teaching and approach is valid, I suppose it is very subjective and relative to one's POV. I can't judge it, not having taken that kind of journey, but if it is working in some way for those who resonate with it, then to each their own. I seem to recall that I did watch his interview on batgap.com, when it first came out ... seemed like genuine enough guy.

@OnceMore I can only speak based on experience, and having experienced the passing of grandparents, parents, a newborn child, friends and lovers, even in the midst of the most profound grief, there is the possibility of the most profound love/bliss ... It seems there is neither cold-hearted detachment, nor needless, story-based, woe-is-me suffering. Just this ever-deeper appreciation for another mystery, another paradox, another wonder to behold. Anyway, best prepare for it, as best one can. Inquire, inquire, inquire, etc.

@Nahm Yeah, as for 'why the dreaming?' There has yet to have been revealed any definitive explanation for this, by anyone, that doesn't amount to speculation, philosophy and/or mythology. Maybe I'll find it in The Knowing Book ... And I've yet to ask the Mushroom As for the proper foundation, I can lay no claim to that. If one goes by some traditions, it may involve countless incarnations in relational experience as foundation construction apprentices. Don't know about others here, but I'm not sure that trade has been mastered yet.

In his own eloquent way, in the video Leo has just expounded upon the words of Lao (hmm, a poet could play with those two names) ... True words seem paradoxical ~ Lao Tzu

@Joseph Maynor In a way, I agree ... however, in an absolute nondual state there would be no possibility of this relational experience. So nonduality, all that is, allows for apparent duality for the sake of this relational experience. Realizing this, the dream doesn't end, it's just known as the creative play of Lila that it truly is, but free of the attendant suffering of not realizing this. Why the dreaming, is another question altogether.

@Nahm I think I see what you're getting at too ... That the nondual state reveals the seeming paradox as only apparent. Paradoxically, the only 'doing' that need be done is the undoing of the apparent paradox -- which makes for a good 'who done it' story

@egoless @Nahm It's a fascinating topic ... Clearly, duality is imaginable, as it is nothing but imagined ... but is nonduality? Leo's insightful 'strange loop' pointer seems like a way to visualize this apparent paradox? It's like a kind of visual koan ... he may well have pulled it off

@egoless Yeah, it's a good question, how to visualize what can't be imagined ... Maybe that's where psychedelics come into play ... intriguing idea.

@Shiva And here I thought you were on the awakened side of the strange loop ... Get back to the 'other' side impostor!

@Source_Mystic I concur about the used bookstores, wherein I spent a lot of time in quiet contemplation. I don't recall now, but I probably picked up both of those paperbacks in such a store. As wonderful as the internet is as a source of such information, I still do miss that musty old smell of well-worn, dog-eared books, handled by countless hands, while wandering those labyrinthine aisles as a bibliophile

Somewhat of a synchronicity, before reading this post, I just finished watching a video on the Kashmir Shaivism take on individuality vs segregated egoity, and it may well be relevant to the inquiry. Take a look if so inclined ... Universal Egoity & the Fivefold Nature of Oneness

@Source_Mystic The Essentials of Zen Buddhism is a classic ... I have a beat-up old paperback copy of that too, and here one finds it, thanks to the wonder of cyberspace, freely available online. I also have a copy of The Way of Zen by Allan Watts from 1960, another such brilliant classic, and that too is available online as a pristine pdf version ... If you haven't already read it take a look here. Youngins don't know how fortuitous it is to have these resources freely available these days !

@Jedd Like Azrael said, this isn't unexpected; it isn't about 24/7 bliss ... Using the strange loop metaphor, try looking at it this way: That which 'one' is in essence is never dichotomized into two apparently separate opposing sides of the strange loop ... It is ever-knowing the only side there actually is. So it is not dichotomized into euphoria and depression, the extraordinary and the ordinary, the highs and the lows, and there is no exclusive identification as such. It is not any identity -- some happy me vs an unhappy me. To paraphrase the song lyric -- freedom is another word for no identity left to lose. There is only the strange loopiness of all that is, never not right here, right now.

@John Iverson Sure, when I've got a year or two to spare, I'll just scan 10,000 pages of hardcopy and email them to you as a pdf. I've read hundreds of such books, and I don't think I've ever asked anyone for a book recommendation. And I don't usually recommend books, because it's very subjective what resonates with any individual. Maybe check out Leo's list. Anyway, these days there's so much available online, that if you can't find something meaningful to read, then you aren't trying very hard. Google 'spiritual book lists', then check out interviews and videos of the authors, and if you like what they have to say, then you might also like their books.

@John Iverson I could mail you a few boxes of such books that I won't read again, but it would cost hundreds of dollars. Lately, I've been reading Bernardo Kastrup's books, who covers many of the subjects you mentioned. Here's his website, which has a link to his available books ... http://www.bernardokastrup.com/p/about.htmln

@Brandon Nankivell There is of course some very ancient vedic science behind the chakra model, which has now been co-opted by the new age scene, and bastardized into a lot of nonsense. So if there's some interest in it, then maybe best to stay with the original teachings. However, I'd suggest that while it may be somewhat useful as a model or map that can be used as a pointer or tool towards some deeper understanding of phenomenal reality, like all such models or maps, they shouldn't be confused with the actual territory. And the only way to deeply explore that territory is through self-exploration, and once the territory is truly known, then the map can be dispensed with. So I wouldn't take any model or map as the literal truth.

@Samurai Y There's no doubt that giving birth is a profound spiritual and heart-opening experience. Then there's the real test: can that quality of consciousness be extended to relationships in general, not just toward and around one's children? But parenting I suppose could be thought of as a kind of spiritual practice. Having raised two kids, I know for sure there will be tests. Life has a way of doing that.

@AleksM And I thought I spent too much time on the internet Now I feel so much better about having a sedentary lifestyle ... if a hyper-spatial torus can be sedentary !

@Deep Excellent ... Pretty much covers the entire spiritual lexicon. Somewhat surprised I've never heard of Paul Chek, and constantly amazed at how such Speakers keep appearing, as if out of nowhere ... Thanks for sharing.

Yes, and therein lies the dilemma ... the one standing on the unenlightened side of the strange loop wanting so bad to join the ones on the enlightened side, when actually they're all on the only side there really is. That is what is realized! The 'one' that realizes it never changed. There's just no longer any two-sided dilemma.

@EyeOfTheStorm Again, I suggest that you don't get too hung up about how one can make this happen, or expectations about how it is going to unfold, or how "if I do such and such, then I can expect something special to happen." The fact is that there is no way of knowing how it is going to happen, no matter what one may try. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't bother trying different practices, or psychedelics, or following someone's prescribed techniques, if that is what resonates with you. And any of that might possibly work, But just keep an open mind that it could happen in some way that one can't predict, or even currently imagine. There are actually countless examples of 'awakenings' that happen, without any self-inquiry, or practices, or psychedelics, or even any prior interest whatsoever in spirituality and metaphysics, when out-of-the-blue, while going about one's daily routine, absent any kind of warning, an indelible revelation of Reality will blow the mind wide open, bring the body to its knees, and the world as it was known is changed forever. I know this for certain, because that is what I went through, while having no clue about spiritual ideas, and is actually what started this journey to discover some explanation for what the fuck had just happened apparently for no reason at all. Who can really say? So just saying this could happen in any number of ways, and no-one can cause it to happen in any given way, as it could actually be determined by circumstances that there is no control over, or so it seems ... The strange loop of the Ineffable Infinite Creation works in mysterious ways

Wonderful story, and so eloquently written ... Thanks for sharing. This deeply resonates with some rare non-psychedelic experiences I've had, but are almost impossible to put into words. I am constantly amazed that the mainstream scientific paradigm dismisses such profound experience -- or even ordinary waking experience -- as just the epiphenomenon of brain activity, an explanation that somehow seems woefully inadequate. But perhaps that paradigm is finally beginning to be seriously questioned, and other valid experiments and explanations are now being explored, that may finally help lift the taboo against such experiences, and their benefits, beyond just entertainment value -- thanks to all you serious psychonauts. Apologies if this is not apropos here, but I posted this link to a Scientific American article by Bernardo Kastrup, about the neural correlates of transcendent states, in another thread that somehow got lost, and it's a topic that may have already been previously discussed here, but it may provide some useful insight into the notion that all experience -- consensus waking reality, dreams, psychedelic, hallucinatory, NDEs, transcendent states, whatever -- are all just an epiphenomenon of brain activity. if, as the article suggests, that is not the case, then what is the source of that experience? I have little experience with psychedelics, except for some mescaline many years ago, so I don't claim any expertise on that specific kind of experience. Note: I do not condone or condemn any activities mentioned in the article, and expect that you're all adults that would use appropriate discernment and precaution before trying anything potentially damaging.

I wondered what happened to that thread. For the record, I felt it was a valid discussion, and worth exploring further. Too bad one takes the time to comment and provide what may be a useful information and links, only to see it all go for naught. Out of curiosity, if a post is hidden, is there something that indicates that is the case?