snowleopard

@Dsteller This sure seems like suffering. I've been there done that with a lover once. And learned there's no way that it's going to help anyone, to be pulled into their dysfunction, and suffer along with them. It's just going to perpetuate it. The best you can do is to be a clear and constant example of what the alternative to suffering is, and trust that they will be moved in that direction. If not, then they do what they're compelled to do, regardless of your best intentions, and you're probably best to let go as compassionately as possible, as painful as such tough love can be, and focus on your own deep inquiry, until suffering is no longer triggered by such situations. Nothing else is going to make much difference in lieu of that.

@Adam M I've never tried it, but here is a chat with some 'floating' advocates, which goes into what the experience is like, what to expect, etc.

@Vinnie Depending upon location, there are many monastic options, pretty much all of which have some traditional religious affiliation. Although mainly Buddhist or Christian, there are also Taoist and Sufi monasteries, and no doubt other kinds. Whether or not they accept anyone who shows an interest is another question. A google search would hopefully find the closest ones, and answer questions about how to join. However, the monastic life shouldn't be confused with solitary isolation. They are highly structured, community based ascetic orders, requiring mutual cooperation in almost every aspect of their operation, wherein everyone follows the same rules, schedules, diet, etc. Even meditation is largely communal, albeit there would also be some opportunity for solitary contemplation. So while they are certainly isolated communities, they are not a place for someone seeking prolonged time in solitude. If that's what one is after, then it would probably have to be a cabin in some sort of unpopulated wilderness. Needless to say, that is not easy to achieve. However, it is possible, and countless autobiographical books have been written about such experiences. Again, google will reveal many, but one I really enjoyed was A Point of Vanishing. Also, here is a Salon article written by the author, as well as a good interview.

For sure, language is a function of the very dualism it hopes to transcend. Once again, the strange loopiness of 'this sentence is false' speaks to this. Makes one just want to say AARRGGHH!!

@egoless If by 'personal' this means a segregated self-identity, then yes, developing that seems problematic. Perhaps the indivisible individual expression of what one is in essence being freed from its segregated self-identity then just flows and is fulfilled quite naturally. Knowing the difference seems key.

@Will Bigger So naught being not unties the knot?

I expect that, as always, 'nothing' will be happening ... But it's realized just how utterly astonishing that is.

@Monkey-man I suggest that the spell of duality is the price to be paid for the sake of having this relational experience. For example, without the dreaming up of a 'self' and 'other-than-self', this conversation would never happen. But then the spell of this dream becomes so compellingly believable that most just take it as reality, and thus become completely invested and indoctrinated in it -- even despite all the attendant suffering that comes with it. And so only the revelation of what one is in essence will dispel the dream. However, as Leo points out, Reality can't really be communicated by mere descriptions, which will never suffice in lieu of deep inquiry. What instigates that inquiry may well have to do with reaching the limits of existential suffering. But I'm not even sure about that, as it can often seem to be a complete mystery why that inquiry begins. But whatever the case, even then, I don't feel that the dream just ends. Rather, it is just revealed to be what it actually is: a clever ruse for the sake of having this relational experience. One is just delivered from the unquestioning belief in it, such that, with some intentional suspension of disbelief, the 'play' is consciously acted out, but absent the existential suffering part. However, whether falling under the spell in the first place is even avoidable may be a moot point. Clearly Maya-mode seems to be destined.

@Shanmugam I look forward to whatever you come up with, as I find this equally intriguing.

Presumably you're referring to substance dualism, the notion that mind and matter are categorically distinct and separate. The scientific problem with this view is that it is not compatible with most quantum investigation, and leaves unexplained many of the anomalies of the mind/body relationship, not to mention countless inexplicable paranormal and transpersonal events, which are simply dismissed as superstition, without any further empirical investigation. The philosophical problem is that it is totally at odds with most serious metaphysical and spiritual inquiry, which point toward some version of nondual idealism. As for materialism, the notion that mind is an emergent epiphenomenon of matter, the problem is its inability to explain how this happens, along with its spiritually deprived paradigm that prioritizes material obsession/possession, and which has fostered an ethos of rampant consumerism and environmental degradation. Whether Idealism can be reconciled with current scientism seems doubtful, and it may indeed have to involve some significant change in the scientific paradigm, which wouldn't be the first such shift in perspective. And while all ontological models are ultimately, at best, true enough under the circumstances, surely there is the possibility of some improvement over the current status quo.

@Monkey-man There may be no more profound mystery than the 'why' of the compelling spell of Maya. I can only imagine that that too has its integral Divine role to play.

@Shanmugam Mark is a someone who I've chatted with in another forum. Other than that, I don't know much about him.

@Shanmugam That is a fascinating correlation between the Divine triune of Father/Son/Holy Spirit and Sat/Chit/Ananda, which I too have speculated about. There are of course many expressions of the trinity archetype that one comes across in metaphysics, including Buddhism's Trikaya, which although it is referring to the three bodies of the Buddha, also shows some intriguing correlation to a Divine triune: The Dharmakāya or Truth body which embodies the very principle of enlightenment and knows no limits or boundaries; The Nirmāṇakāya or created body which manifests in time and space; The Sambhogakāya or body of enjoyment which is a body of bliss or clear light manifestation Here is another elaboration on that Trikaya/Trinity theme which I resonate with ... "In general, the trikaya teaching is a way to explain a Buddha's experience of being. There is the apocryphal story of how the Buddha found his name. Seeing him shining brightly on the road, a man asked him what he was -- a god, a wizard, a man? “No,” said the Buddha, “I am awake." What did the man see? And what was the Buddha feeling? Being/Sat/God/Dharmakaya can be understood as the formless groundless ground, the "empty witness" without attributes that is behind or primordial to appearances, as the Origin or Source. But that description is not complete because it lacks dynamism, intent, feeling tone, life. If we conceptualize God as solely that then the materialist's argument against Him has traction -- because how could such a complete nothing be effective in any way? But the Dharmakaya, like the vacuum state, has an energy associated with it, the Sambhogakaya. You can get something from nothing because the actual nothing is more than the concept nothing. If the ground of being is not material, then “nothing” cannot be a mere absence of material. It is something else, with its own being. This energy can be understood as the natural expression of the fundamental emptiness itself, of its being. The Holy Spirit is associated with this energy as the creative energy that impregnated Mary. This is how Jesus was both the son of man and God. God the Father, Dharmakaya, emanated a Son, Nirmanakaya, through the intermediary of the Holy Spirit, the Sambhogakaya. As an incarnation, a gross form in our dualistic world, Jesus was a Nirmanakaya (tulku/Rinpoche), but his Consciousness/Chit/Sambhogakaya was an energetic expression of the Father, the Dharmakaya. Buddha was similarly a Nirmanakaya, an incarnation or embodiment of the Dharmakaya. At the level of expression or message or transmission of the Buddha, we speak about bodhicitta (awakening-mind). Bodhicitta is known for its compassionate warmth, but it is rooted in the absolute being-knowledge of the Dharmakaya, which is utter absence of limitation, restriction, or suffering. Bodhicitta is symbolized by a lotus, which begins in the mud and then sends a shoot up through the water, blooming in a pristine, stainless flower. The Sambhogakaya is especially related to symbol. Normally we think of symbols as pictures that we invent to refer to actual objects. But it would appear that there are natural symbols that are not merely conceptual fabrications that illuminate gross objects, but those which naturally arise directly from the Dharmakaya as expressions of its qualities. At a deeper (that is, more subtle) level than their Nirmanakaya manifestations, both Buddha and Jesus are symbolic expressions of the Dharmakaya, though in different ways. Where the Sambhogakaya of the Buddha was a presence of profound peace, scintillating intellect, and a glowing, blissful brightness, Jesus was like a bolt of lightning that connected Heaven and earth, a shocking transmission of knowledge. The beginning of Valentinus' Gospel of Truth states it this way: The gospel of truth is joy to those who have received from the Father of truth the gift of knowing him by the power of the Logos, who has come from the Pleroma and who is in the thought and the mind of the Father; he it is who is called "the Savior," since that is the name of the work which he must do for the redemption of those who have not known the Father. For the name of the gospel is the manifestation of hope, since that is the discovery of those who seek him, because the All sought him from whom it had come forth. You see, the All had been inside of him, that illimitable, inconceivable one, who is better than every thought. Think of how different the conditions were where Jesus taught. The Buddha appeared in a place and time uniquely suited to his transmission, and he found his place immediately as a culmination of existing teachings. On the contrary, Jesus, while a fulfillment of prophecy, was both a great joy but also a terrible affront to those who "did not know the Father." So where is bliss in all this? This is the feeling-tone of the energy of this transmission, which is beyond merely feeling good. The fact that we don't associate bliss with crucifixion gives some clue to the special meaning of that word as it applies to the Sambhogakaya. This special meaning becomes most clear when we add the fourth Kaya, the Svabhavikakaya, which is the union or experience of them all together, and also the essence, the single meaning. That meaning is pristine purity: The profoundly simple, ever-fresh, brilliant isness of form, which never impedes the infinite, spacious peace of being. The crucifixion is a testament to the difficulty of living that view and also shows that it is possible." ~ Mark Robert

James W Jesso shares an intriguing trip report, wherein he says 'fuck it' to the fear of death, with an amusing part where some eros daemon advises him not to take his pants off during an erotic episode, which he does not heed, disregarding that the 'Mushroom' knows best ... But all ends exquisitely.

@Dodo Well yes, whatever the circumstances, 'nothing', amazingly enough, is what's happening. But I still prefer that it doesn't feel like indigestion

@Nahm

Love this short film about Jim Carrey, actor come painter, which I deeply resonated with, evoking art as a metaphor for life. As a gift from our grandson I received a cup depicting the art of Frida Kahlo, with this quote from her: "I never painted my dreams ... I only painted my own reality" -- which deeply stirred some inspiration too. We are all artists expressing the Artist-nature that is our Source ... I wish inspired 'painting' to all

Yet another scientific case for a Cosmic Mind ...

Right now, 'nothing' is happening ... and it's amazing !

'Nothing' changes ... what else ? But it sure seems like 'something.'

Deeply appreciating 'nothing' is an art ... not easy to master. But you seem to be off to a good start !

It's pretty much another strange loop example -- which side is life and which side is death, when there actually aren't two sides? But one has to go full circle to grok that you're no more dead, nor alive, right now, than ever is the case.

I'm reminded of a poem that speaks of this ... then out of some wordless depths of fertile silence and stillness, a wormlike sentence is born, and crawls across the page, devouring the empty spacetime, whereupon it spins a lyrical cocoon, emerging after a cryptic timeline, as if by divine grace or magic, as an intricately transfigured metamorphosed metaphor ... an utterance taking wing, that in a flight of imagining, like Logos bewitched by Eros, sings words to awaken by.

So basically you're asking what if you didn't understand english?