snowleopard

@Leo Gura Another example that struck home very young, was when we first went for a nice peaceful drive in the countryside on a hot summer's night, in heavenly anticipation of a moonlight swim in a lake, and I became aware of the mass slaughter of lovely moths and other exquisitely intricate insects, which I once loved to playfully and gently examine, now mangled and scorched into the front of the car -- which when pointed out to my dad, he merely said, "So what, fewer mosquitoes to worry about," while belittling me for being overly sensitive about such things. To this day, I'm still not entirely cool with swatting even mosquitoes, wuss that I am

The 'Word' is generally understood to be the Logos, which can be interpreted, in terms of Idealism, to be like Divine, immanent, archetypal Ideas that would have no origin or causation, as the 'beginning is ever-now -- however inconceivable that may seem to the rational mind.

The intellect tends to get a bum rap being lumped in with the conditioned auto-pilot thinking of the egoic mind-set, but I feel a valid distinction can be made between that and the intellect as a tool for inquiring into the integral nature of the psyche, which, like any tool, can be used with fine-tuned precision, or clumsily, depending upon the amount of deliberate practice dedicated to it, as pointed to in this chat about the subtle difference between the expression/exploration of concepts vs ideas ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG7QAEAZYlk

This film looks like it will be worth a look, one of the best flicks of the year, according to some mainstream media reviewers ... Another indication that the taboo about psychedelics may be lifting ...

It's another seeming paradox that any 'experience of infinitude' must be both an experience of aloneness and all-oneness. But it does feel different from the sense of loneliness that arises within a segregated self apart from that infinitude, as Rupert speaks to here ...

lol ... Oddly enough, in the weird way this imaginative mind works, your words reminded me of the opening theme of the old Looney Tunes TV show, which kind of sums up the whole cycle of the incartoonations of life and death in one minute ...

@Nahm Well, no doubt that insofar as the exclusive egoic identification as a body is deeply entrenched, then the dream of its death will appear very real, and utterly convincing. But ultimately that experience can't be avoided, and eventually there will be no dream of a body to return to, and likewise the curtain falls on the whole human theatre, so might as well get used to it in dress rehearsal

@WaterfallMachine This depression may be to do with the loss of all those once-cherished egoic beliefs, but if the depression is prolonged then I'd suggest that it is a message that there is still some shadow stuff that is crying out to be investigated. You've probably already figured out that there is no causation 'out there.' It has to do with some subconscious identification with some core belief, and the only way to resolve that is through continued deep inquiry. It seems psychedelics, if used in the proper healing context, with experienced guidance, can greatly help with this . But with or without them, the message should not be ignored or repressed. Treat it more as an ally in the ongoing awakening.

@Gustav In this case, with about zero interest in spirituality/metaphysics, after a seemingly random, unexpected, inexplicable glimpse of "___", the mind became utterly obsessed with finding out what had happened. In those pre-internet days, books were the only option, and the reading was so compelling, I couldn't get enough of it, and can't recall ever asking for recommendations, coming across books that seemed to appear in the most unexpected ways, almost as if it were meant to be. While I'm not sure that it made one any more awakening-prone, it did play a big part in coming to terms with the event, and giving it some kind of meaningful context. Had I instead become a monk and meditated diligently for countless years, without reading any of the books, I'm not sure I would have been any more awake. So it may well be that we do what we are compelled to do, regardless of what anyone advises, and we don't really choose a path, but rather it chooses us. And having some fixated expectation of how it has to be may have no bearing on how it will be. In any case, keep the faith that it can be.

"Form is not other than emptiness ... emptiness is not other than form" ~ The Heart Sutra A dichotomous self attached to one or the other is futility.

Peace on earth ... perhaps all those meditators saved a mountain goat's ass

@Monkey-man Even the name 'God' is given for lack of a better name ... Freedom is another name for no name left to lose.

@egoless Seems you might have to change your forum pseudonym I agree that too much is made of this so-called ego 'death' -- and the heroic spin it is given. Yes, the dispelling of the exclusive segregated self-identity is crucial, but it is not the 'death' of an individual locus of perspective, without which this relational experience, however dreamlike it may be, wouldn't be happening. If anything, it's the 'death' of a belief. Ok, great news ! Now 'chop wood, carry water', as the zen saying goes.

What is important is the revelation of 'what one is in essence' -- yet another name, of course, for what defies all names. All the conventional tradition-specific names come with cultural baggage and/or semantic ambiguities. So perhaps best to keep it as nonspecific as possible. Not to say that they don't have some relative usefulness as pointers, but until there is an indelible knowing of what is being pointed at, then they can become traps. Once that is known, all names and descriptors can begin to feel like disposable answers to a koan.

Yet another professorial confession that materialism rests on shaky ground, in this Aeon article 'Minding Matter' suggests.

@Joseph Maynor Gotta love it ... Emerald truly does this heart good to see such wisdom in one so young.

@AleksM Interesting interpretations ... Another way to look at it would be to ask: what is a 'tree' mirroring when seen through the lens of a infant mind not preconditioned by its names and stories about it? Pretty much some colors and shapes in motion. Then the parent says, 'That's called a Maple tree, and its leaves are turning red and falling because it's Autumn', or 'That one is called a Spruce tree, and its leaves don't fall off, but don't touch them because they're sharp' or 'That's called Poison Oak, yada, yada yada' ... and after repeated variations on these stories, the 'tree' is soon mirroring a whole lot more than some colors and shapes in motion. This also speaks to Kant's phenomenal/noumenal distinction. As such, does one ever truly see a 'tree' as what it is in essence?

Perhaps best not get too caught up in the 'name' game ... God, The Infinite, The Absolute, etc, all names for the nameless, mere descriptors, which then all imply an opposing concept, which implies duality, which implies illusory, which makes for these "It is this, but not that" discussions. Yes, to refer to it here, it must be named, but always keep in mind it's not the name.

@Mighty Mouse Agreed, whereas QM is still clinging to materialism, it hasn't gone far enough to grok the profound implications of Idealism -- which is that there is no substrate producing any substance.

@Echoes In some interpretations of Idealism, what is perceived as a tree is the phenomenal manifestation of an ideation in Mind-at-large. But it still requires an individual locus of perception in subject/object relation to that information, for it to coalesce as the appearance of a 'tree.' In QM terms, this would be the collapse of the wave-function.

@Echoes Yes, as long as one is participating in this consensus dream, I'm not sure there is much choice whether or not to believe in trees or rivers. They come with the territory. On psychedelics, not so much

@Mighty Mouse What I interpret as so-called ego 'death' would be the termination of experiencing an exclusive identification as human. By termination of human experience I mean that the appearance of this body, however dreamlike it may be, would be gone, to return no more. In which case, good luck posting in this forum

Funny, as usual, how different interpretations are read into these descriptions. The message I read was that there may well be a point of no return, whereby the human experience could be fully transcended, and it wouldn't just be the so-called 'death' of the segregated, exclusive self-identity, it will be the termination of the human experience, and as such no posting in this forum. However, it could be a misinterpretation of the message.

Fully living the human experience does not equate with exclusively identifying as that human. Any exclusive identification or attachment, whether it is being human or beyond human, is bound to be problematic, as any such attachment is transitory. Again, just lovingly embrace it, and just as easily let it pass away. To everything there is a season.