Matt8800

People should do whatever they are going to do. If you feel you need to smoke and drink, then do it. As for me, I choose not to for health reasons.

The Bhagavad Gita says that there is no "you" that can kill "them". Nobody dies and nobody kills. It is not the act that is "wrong", it is the motivation behind the act. Who is "harmed" and who is doing the harming? If a chicken is killed instantly, explain how this is "bad" from the chicken's perspective. Do you consider people that eat meat "bad"? If so, do you lump Nisgardatta and Tolle in with that group as "bad" people? We agree that if a chicken is killed instantly, there is no conscious suffering. How can you claim something is "bad" if there is no suffering? (Before you compare a chicken to a human and a human's potential for enlightenment, I touched on that in an earlier response)

Not only are their bodies merely matter, our own bodies are merely matter. We are not our bodies and pointing that out doesnt make me a devil. I see a lot of judgement in the spiritual circles around this issue and I think it is a subject that deserves a discussion.

Im a devil for eating meat? Would you say that Nisgardatta and Eckhart Tolle are also devils or does meat eating only make me a devil?

I suppose that would be a natural assumption but that is incorrect. I dont feel any need to defend my position but I do enjoy stimulating conversations. I think there is some inconsistencies between non-duality and people that insist others eat meat. As for vegetarians that just do it as a personal choice and dont cultivate personal aversion and judgement towards meat eaters, more power to them.

Personally, I eat mainly cooked white meat, vegetables and drink lots of water because that is my preference for numerous reasons. I try to avoid the meat of animals with higher intelligence, such as pigs, for my own subjective reasons. I also try to avoid factory farmed meat where the animals may experience suffering in their conscious experience. I dont see the connection between suffering and a painless death however. I seems to me that typically only people that identify with the body make that connection. Social conditioning and biological hard-wiring largely determines what is "ok" for most people. As to what other people do or dont do, that is up to them. With that said, I will take whatever opportunity that may arise to encourage people to avoid cruelly farmed animal meat. Regarding cannibalism, that is something I dont do so I dont have any comments about it other than I dont interfere with animals that have the intelligence to grow towards enlightenment. I personally believe only humans are the only animals that have the intelligence to see through the illusion of the body identification.

We are talking about eating meat. There is no reason that someone's meat eating status has anything to do with "figuring it all out". Eat meat if you want or dont....its as simple as that.

It doesnt matter how I confirmed it just like it doesnt matter to me if anyone believes I have confirmed other things, such as no-self, impermanence, etc so that is a moot point to me. What makes you think eating meat makes me feel guilty? That is an assumption based on nothing I have said.

You are correct that chimps dont BBQ but they do eat meat. It is ideal to cook meat to avoid sicknesses and parasites.

That is not what I said. Anyone that knows me knows I dont give two shits about what someone else thinks, regardless of who they are, unless I investigate it for myself My point was simply that there seems to be an assumption by many that eating meat makes one "un-spiritual".

I have confirmed them for myself and it appears others have as well.

It seems you start with the assumption that your view is correct and Nisgardatta and Eckhart Tolle's view is "wrong". That is merely a subjective opinion.

I agree. Eat meat if you want. Dont if you dont want but there seems to be some dogmatism among vegetarians. This was basically a post to say there is no need for the dogmatism. 1. Yes, the meat farm industry can be disgusting in the way they treat animals which is why I think meat should be sourced from smaller farms with humane methods. 2. Human diet is causing climate change due to overpopulation. Overpopulation is the root, indirect cause. Nobody cares what Chimpanzees eat because there isnt enough of them to make a difference. Climate change is a massive problem but if meat could be produces with nil effects on climate, I doubt it would make a difference to most vegetarians. 3. Unless you can provide a link to a scientific study that shows that is true for white meat, I claim that statement is false. 4. Different people require different amounts of meat. People should do what is most healthy for themselves. Regarding justification, do you think Nisgardatta or Eckhart Tolle try to manufacture justification for their actions? If you think that, I doubt you are very familiar with them.

Enlightened guru, Nisargadatta, along with many other enlightened masters, would have to agree to disagree with you https://happy.guide/2013/03/17/does-eckhart-tolle-eat-meat/ http://www.wearesentience.com/nisargadatta-on-eating-meat.html

I agree...there is no duality. It doesnt matter what one eats. Thats my point so it sounds like we agree

Yes, I tried going without meat and I felt extremely unhealthy. A lot of other people have felt the same. The Dalai Lama eats meat for health reasons.

If you understand that you are the chicken, and you dont have a negative attitude towards death, then what is the issue?

Is there a problem?

I will answer that in the hypothetical situation that humans and chickens have equal levels of intelligence and consciousness: If I didnt know about it, I wouldnt have an opinion and there would be no suffering I direct my value and compassion towards conscious experience, not the body.

A couple points on that: 1. Different species have different levels of consciousness. If a chicken could see through the illusion of the ego to realize the True Self and become enlightened, you would have made a great point 2. If someone suddenly killed a body that is not actually "me", it wouldnt matter to me because I wouldnt know. 3. There seems to be an assumption that death, even without suffering, is "bad". Why is that? You are projecting your own fear of impending death and identification with the body onto the chicken. Here is a question for you - Did the chicken experience suffering before or after the moment it was killed?

There seems to be a concern in many spiritual circles around the idea of eating meat.

Does the fox end the mouse's live prematurely or was the mouse destined to end at that time?

Are you saying the chicken is feeling existential dread of the ending of their falsely identified bodies? For a human, the only suffering in that scenario is the anticipation of the harm to the "self". If you could communicate the same concept to a chicken, you might have a point

You are going through the dark night of the soul. This is normal and natural but you need to take certain steps to get out of it. Here are a few questions to ponder: 1. Why are "you" attached to purpose? 2. What is the "you" that is attached to purpose? 3. Why does it matter that nothing has purpose? 4. Why does it matter that "you" are bothered that nothing has a purpose? Your ego is fighting to not be dissolved. Its scary but just have faith in the path and let go. You will no longer exist but your life will open up to freedom and beauty unlike anything you have ever experienced. "Your" purpose is getting in the way of God's movement. Let go, accept all and surrender. You are getting close... https://alohadharma.com/2011/06/12/the-dark-night/

People say a lot of things but unless it is backed up by scientific studies that support those conclusions, those claims are useless. I remember hearing the refer madness stories as a kid and believing those also. Taking oral steroids are hard on the liver, which is why one shouldn't do it for longer than one cycle. Injections are much safer but one would have to get over the idea of it. Rice contains some arsenic. Too much arsenic will kill you but that doesnt mean that rice will cause you damage. People have died of caffeine overdoses but that doesnt mean you shouldnt ever drink coffee. Do research based on science and studies and use common sense.