Jamie Universe

The word 'should' is tossed around when one believes that one should do something for some reasons. But reasons and 'Shoulds' aren't 'destiny' Why should someone leave the body forever? idk, people say it makes you 'happy' or beyond happiness. Its not like you have too, its not like there's some ultimate cosmic force and 'destiny' for your life (not taking into account the whole free will debate), in the end, you will make a choice, and I guess whatever you choose is your 'destiny'. And because of that choice you may be better off, or worse. Every time I hear the word 'should' or 'important' I know its probably because someone has an agenda at mind. If you want reasons why someone should choose to leave the body forever. Well, fuck it. That's why. Its a gamble, it can be shady biz at times, lots of traps... But that's pretty much life for you in general. Unless you can predict everything, going forward in life is always unknown. What feels known is an illusion, sure there's a 'high-probability' of stuff happening. For example there's a high-probability your physical body might die someday, but for all you know it will just keep living on and on, it seems impossibly stupid, but that's not the point. If you watched Leo's video on what makes a good researcher, he basically says that, "A good researcher will research the unnecessary bullcrap, for the sake of finding something amazing" and when it comes to researching potentially dangerous stuff, you need to consider for yourself if you want to take the risks. Anyways that's my rant, I think your post was important, I tend to struggle with this question to. P.S. I'm sort of writing this post for myself too, so thanks for making this post

I suggest https://thesixfigurementors.com/ In all fairness I haven't actually done anything with it yet, and don't know how good it is, but I'm pretty sure it does have instructional videos and stuff, though it does cost money.

Thanks! No, I don't feel very insecure with it as far as I can tell, but I've yet to tell my parents (not necessarily because I'm afraid of rejection, but I have some grudges against my parents and sort of have this fear of connecting with them, or just don't really like them so much right, now, which I know is like a cliché for teenagers). I've sort of made this plan that I'd tell them right before I go to college, so at least I wouldn't have to spend a ton of my time around them, and fear the awkwardness of 'being gay' around them. But I'll try out that technique, it sounds useful. I'm usually in a constant self-talk situation whenever I'm in a social environment and its awkward or something. I think I got a grip on the whole 'social-perception' thing, for the most part. Thanks!! Though I'm sure theirs some douche-bags out their that are gay. Also I think if all men we're gay humanity would die lol. But then again, right now technically all the gays/lesbians are saving the world because of overpopulation That's interesting about the biology thing though, I did a little research on causes of being gay, and I didn't really find any concrete results. I can't really tell, but I feel like a solid amount of my friends could be emotionally unstable occasionally, I mean usually when I'm talking to them they seem fine/enthusiastic. Though other times I feel like they've all mastered their emotional stability, but I mean who knows. Though I know for myself I still have work to do. Also P.S. I feel somewhat obliged to tell people that I'm actually bisexual. At the time I written this post I did actually think I was gay, but I thought more about it, and remembered there was times in the past where like several times I was somewhat attracted to a girl, and I had a crush on a girl once. But I also learnt there's a spectrum to bisexuality, and I'm pretty much just gay, the other side is near invisible. Also for anyone who is curious, I've pretty much concluded that the thing with my eyes is mostly a form of anxiety 1) Usually only happens when in some anxious social situation 2) it also happens at random times when I feel fine, and maybe if its cold outside they start to water. I also read somewhere that going through big emotional traumas can affect your immune system and make you cry easier. It starts to go away once your more comfortable in your social situation, also its really helpful to have a water bottle around. And with the whole eye laser thing... Well the best logical conclusion I can give you, is that maybe its some form of suppression, because when you feeling something negative you can sort of control your emotions by suppressing it. Idk... I know it sounds weird..

I would say a red flag is an over-exaggeration. Sure they're indicators, but public nose-picking? Children do that all the time, I still do it occasionally. Some of the 'red-flags' you have mentioned are kind of alarming, but nothing huge. I feel I should also point out, that the people at your school are jerks, and its entirely possible to be socially awkward without being autistic. But in all fairness its entirely possible that you could be on some level autistic. But I wouldn't label yourself as that, because as soon as you call yourself autistic, the baggage of mentally-disabled comes along, and probably won't help. If you want to go to a doctor and see if that's true, go ahead. But from what you've told me so far, I wouldn't worry so much.

Thanks for the conversation people, I read all that stuff, and quoted a bunch of stuff. It took me like a hour or more lol. I got a lot of valuable information from this.

@Saumaya Is there any advice you would give to a newbie from your journey personally? (Meaning something that's not commonly found in teachings, etc.)

Yes you only love them because they take care of you, but the love you feel for them is something else entirely. You've mixed love and selfishness together, when in reality you DO love your family, even if its because of a selfish reason (just because something originates from a selfish origin, does not mean the actuality of itself is bad, love is beautiful and majestic). And also selfishness is not necessarily bad, its selfish to be alive, does that mean you should be critical because you haven't killed yourself yet?

I found this on YouTube, and it was to good.

@Miguel Oliveira No Problem!

@Miguel Oliveira I still have conversations with people where it will just become kind of awkward, and you don't connect. But on the other hand I do have relationships where conversation is not even something I think about, and it sort of happens automatically. I would consider myself partially shy/introverted. But even introverts can have better relationships then extroverts.

You know it might be the way you talk that's making you so depressed. One key difference between the pessimistic person and the happy one, is that even though they both go through pain, the happy one see's pain as a obstacle or challenge to overcome, not a defeat. I've been there to. I could also see why making this post could be important for relieving stress/talking your feelings out, I've had journal entries that were very similar to this one.

Heres Leo's advice from this video: Summary: Shyness is not innate. We can experience shyness in various settings, typically more acutely in some than in others. Don't label yourself as a shy person. Your shyness is reversible, not a life sentence you must drag around with you forever. Shyness tends to emerge when we suffer from self-image issues that make us overly worried about what others think. It can appear as lack of eye contact, stuttering, or inability to approach others. One technique to overcome shyness is to care less about what others think. The best method for addressing shyness is to leave your house more. Become more social. For example, join a group with similar interests. If you're shy at work, strike up friendships with one or two co-workers whom you invite to coffee or lunch. Gradually expand the circle to more people. Interacting in a casual environment will help you be more comfortable sharing your opinions in meetings and cubicles. To become less shy with the opposite sex, go out with your friends at night, and imitate them, if you feel uncertain. Go bowling or to a concert if not to a bar or a club. Practice being less shy by chatting up service workers who assist you at the cashier counter or the restaurant. They're paid to be nice to people -- you can start perfecting your conversation skills with them. They'll appreciate being treated like human beings, not robots. My personal advice: It sort of sounds like your shy from past experiences + limiting beliefs about yourself. For example Sounds like a bad past experience, which affected you, it was an experience that made your shyness larger. For example If you got attacked by a bear, you would probably be more cautious when your in the forest remembering the pain of that past experience. To deal with this you will need to change your belief system, and start to realize "I do acknowledge that I am shy, but I know that I can change this." Affirmations are also a good idea, here's a video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCoNh78UC4E Another thing is a self-image problem you might have. What I see here, is since you don't have any stories about your life, this affects the belief that "your not good enough" and makes the shyness worse. But you could change the belief in yourself, that you don't need stories to be a worthy person. I have a lot of relationships and I don't nearly talk about what goes on in my life, or in other words - Stories aren't required. All these past experiences and limiting beliefs you have against yourself seem to only make the self-image problems worse. You seem to have a self-esteem issue, here's a good quote that Leo said "The first step is typically to identify what triggered these internalized feelings, then proceed to awareness and understanding. Stomping out the irrational, limiting beliefs makes way for more logical ones. Low self-esteem need not be permanent. Correcting it can be an arduous process, but well worth the effort."

I don't actually know a ton about it, but here's some stuff. https://lonerwolf.com/shadow-work-demons/ Its basically finding unconscious neurotic stuff and releasing it. Or something along those lines. I haven't actually done much of it myself, but I'm pretty sure that trying to identify emotions and having awareness of the body, is something you use for shadow work. When I was 13/14 years old I probably went insane for at least a year or two. Rationally I was fine, but I kept believing that I lived in some sort of society where everyone could control me, and I also started believing a bunch of other crap. And I occasionally still believe that stuff today, even though its pretty irrelevant at this point because I can catch myself believing it. People get in car accidents and lose their legs, and literally enlightenment is about fucking murdering yourself. Shit happens, but I know for a fact that if I didn't have that time where I went insane, I would've been a lot unhappier. My point? Idk

Are you trying to do shadow work? Because if you aren't, there's other techniques which are good for being vulnerable to your emotions and accepting them, which might work better for you, since you seem to have some trouble with this one. P.S. ok?

I was trying to make a meditation habit, and I was like "wtf how do you people do this" and then I contemplated it, and now its 10x easier. I mean there's still some laziness within me, but its A LOT easier to do 20 minutes now. And if you don't care, contemplate that! You may not know why you don't care, but you at least know that you don't care. Work with what you can.

Yea it kind of sounds like your either afraid of death, or afraid of your looks.

Usually whenever a problem like this comes up for me, I just start screaming at myself for being jealous over such stupid stuff. Not saying this will work for you, but you need have your argument against your monkey mind, and it needs to convince you enough so that you can just scream those facts at the jealous part of your mind. For me, my self-argument is that jealousy is completely useless, self-tormenting machine, that exists because the monkey mind is unhappy it doesn't have what it wants. Just like how worrying before presenting something, is completely useless because your going to go up on stage anyway, and you can either feel like this, or more confident. But honestly no guarantees. Also Leo has videos on jealousy.

@Vignan You could try enlightenment/career first. And then do the other one later.

Taking lessons from Leo's "all criticisms are untenable" video. I have found that whenever I get offended by something someone did, I remember a time where I infact did that exact same thing. For example, maybe a person doesn't like you and are giving you signals that they don't like you. But then if you can remember any time in your life (you may not be able to remember any) where you did the exact same thing, then your minds argumentative side sort of dies down some because "Why am I getting mad at someone for doing the exact same thing I did." And that may not make you any less sad or angry, but it will definitely help with winning against your mind in an argument. But there's also just not caring about peoples opinions, which Leo has a video on.

@Shir I've been down the stupid road before. Depression is a bunch of bull shit. I feel bad for you. I could give you a bunch of advice on what to do. But in truth, no therapist, no forum post, will likely save you. I find the depression is made up of arguments and reasons (not 100% sure). If you can find these arguments and reasons, then you can fix your depression. I find that most pessimistic arguments are full of shit. Also btw you do care. Because if you didn't care you wouldn't be here writing this post, and you would consider suicide as an escape option. You just don't feel the emotional baggage of caring.

First of all, what of this? That's another assumption you just made, "You can still play the game to fill up your time" "the consequences are superficial" You probably haven't watched his Zen-devil video, where he talks just about what your worried, you've largely misunderstood him from what I've gathered (Which is fine as long as you realize his message.) Your worried that he'll not care about anything and that 'all consequences are superficial' You've got a good point. But that doesn't mean morality isn't objective, literally if everyone in the world functioned off these principles it would not be objective. The moment something can change, it is not objective. And if you can imagine someone not functioning off the principle "suffering is bad" then it isn't objective. But I feel the only reason you want to see morality as objective, is because there is suffering and you want it to stop. And you also worry that if everyone in society was enlightened, we would somehow all just kill ourselves and each other, because why not? Which honestly could and has happened (watch Leo's Zen-devil video) but Leo does not advocate for just going around a raping everyone. Your making a lot of assumptions. 1) Leo thinks that everyone should just stop caring about all forms of morality, and that if Leo cared enough to run society, it would all go to ruin. 2) the 'no difference' between 'heaven' and 'hell' is a form of propaganda Leo uses to advocate his world views, and advocate the 'no consequences' worldview. Instead of just what's in pure reality. You think Leo is like: A parent going up to a bunch of children and saying "Hey kids, sorry to break it to you, but this game isn't real, so it doesn't matter who wins or loses, or if you play by the rules" In reality Leo is more like: The kid playing the game, knowing its fakes, and thinks the parent is a complete cu** for saying that shit You believe there is one type of form that's objective meaning: One form that - Can't change, is true for everyone and everything always regardless of anything. And for all I know there could. But if your advocating for the forms currently: e.g. - humans are more important than animals, then THAT principle is not objective, maybe the 'source' principle that existed, is largely common amongst people. "better forms vs. worse forms" Its not dammit! lol You misunderstood my statement, the words "Is more important" are totally subjective. Here's an example of what I mean: If you have a hobo and a trillionaire, who will care more about the 100 dollars laying there on the street? (value is different for all) Hobo will care more about hundred dollars than trillionaire. So in our case its more like: If you have 2 people (one who cares more for animals / one who cares less for animals) Who's going to freak out more when all the dolphins die off? If you want to understand the truth, its important you know why people call things "important" Its because they like "better forms vs. worse forms" and these selections of 'better forms' obviously change. And sure go ahead, argue all you want why I should care more about humans more than other species. I could make even more arguments, I could argue that sure humans have a higher capacity to suffer, but do they suffer more currently? We have McDonalds, Burger king, and this huge giant industry which lives off the suffering of animals, and throughout all of human history we have eaten them ALOT more than they have eaten us. I could also argue it doesn't matter to me how much an animal can suffer, if its less then humans, because they're still feeling it. I could argue a whole bunch of philosophical bull crap. call me irrational, not being 'strategic to the best of my human capacity' But it doesn't matter, because its just a choice I made. There's no sheer amount of philosophical evidence that will 'make me have to' change my opinions, maybe if I find out in the future, that animals don't have any emotions/feelings and don't suffer, maybe I will change my opinions.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/do-animals-feel-pain-in-the-same-way-as-humans-do-10371800.html Animals for sure feel physical pain, and though it seems debatable the capacity by which they suffer. Also I don't limit my care just because they don't feel as bad. Also I'm not trying to convert you to loving all animals.. I mean the animals suffer, but its just a choice I've adopted because I want to be more empathetic. I'm still plenty in-empathetic, I don't donate to charity, etc. Yes, people can admit that there was something that caused them pain (at least from what we can agree in a philosophical argument). And who says they write off everybody else's pain as a non-issue? If you interview each and every enlightened person, you may find some may think its not an issue, and you may find that some think it is a issue. Point is, you don't know. Because already from that one statement "Everything is fine just the way it is, and the only TRUE problem lies in your perspective of whatever is" we have multiple interpretations. And if you've interviewed every enlightened/spiritual person in the world with this argument, then your proving a good point. Yes there is pain, the pain is something. But there's always a choice. just because the statement is objectively true, doesn't mean morality principles don't count for anything. Ok morality, how would you define morality? Morality: principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. Yes, there is relationship between personal principles and well being, but you say that Morality is apart of this objective basis. Yes morality determines emotion, but morality in itself can be changed. So morality as itself is not objective, at least not the principles. And in your first post you said that "some forms are better than others" whereas we have already disagreed on which forms are better and which are worse. I think some are better, you think some are better. as far as philosophical debate goes, pain exists, but principles are constructions that we can change, and they change for our own reasons. I don't know where your getting this idea that the spiritual people think that life has no consequences, I mean sure people who have had enlightenment awakenings in the past have thought that, but Leo at least has debunked that. As for the best interest of those who are enlightened depends, because this is a game.. and yes the game says some forms are better than others, and yes if your playing chess, your going to want to have your queen and win. But the message is "Why do you want to win so bad in the first place? Why do you want that form to mean so much to you?" So yea sure, in a way it does make logical sense to not cut off your arm, and not like rape. I mean it causes people suffering. You play chess, one person wins, one person loses. someone's going to be unhappy. So take it as advice instead, take the statement "Everything is fine just the way it is, and the only TRUE problem lies in your perspective of whatever is" as an instructional guide for what to feel when your arm gets cut off, because the alternative "some forms are better than others" will make your life a living hell the next time you get raped. And don't take that statement as a belief that spiritual people have, also don't take "Everything is fine just the way it is" as a reason enlightened/spiritual people have to not care when people die. Pain as itself is a undesirable emotional feature, but "Everything is fine" can be seen as a View towards life not necessarily a reality. And I mean who knows... Maybe pain itself is just a raw emotional experience, and the only thing that makes it 'bad' is interpretation/self-deception, but I don't know that for sure. But if you start to consider that winning chest is just some random form, then when you lose you'll be fine. If you start to consider that people being abused is just atoms moving around, then you'll be happier, that doesn't mean your not allowed to have that interpretation and use pepper spray when someone's being mugged. I don't deny there is pain, but I do deny that the 'forms' are innately bound to cause pain. All philosophy aside from a second. Look at what you can do: Choose 'better forms vs. worse forms' and... - care when people get hurt - get emotionally damaged to whatever extent - can take action based upon morality principles Choose "everything is just fine" - Care when people get hurt (care - principle saying you should do something) - feel how you want to - can take action based upon morality principles Ok, I didn't know the "nothing exists" thing was a metaphor, but I also never believed it was non-existent Also I don't think its a non-issue, I'm still empathetic as long as I'm playing this game, stop assuming You're almost implying that I don't care about other peoples suffering, realistically though I can't help every single one of them. Your almost implying that I think its their own fault, I obviously don't expect a poor kid in Africa to suddenly realize that they're pain is their own interpretation. And I don't blame them for not realizing it, it could simply be a choice someone might follow.

And I could be wrong!

What does something need to be objective? Well depending on your definition, and from what I gather here, people use objective as: - What's actually there - unbiased/unprejudiced and (I think) your argument is, is that 1) some forms are better than others (at least for what makes a "human well") 2) Morality is objective because humans naturally get well from things that cannot change, and naturally suffer from other things, and enlightenment 'talk' is 'bad' because it contradicts the fact that many people have suffered over objective things like death. So lets talk about this 'objective' thing. If you agree with my definition, then morality being objective means that there are things that will always regardless of anything make someone well/unwell. I'm not going to delve into the other arguments, because I don't have enough time to respond. But that means if something makes someone 'well' and makes another person 'unwell' it can't be objective, because it depends on the persons state. Because yes you could argue that getting your arm chopped off is objectively bad, yet to enlightened people it doesn't seem to matter. Seeing animals suffer makes me unwell, infact I sometimes care less about humans than I do about animals, and yet it will not make as unwell for your own reasons. Maybe you can elaborate on your argument. This whole post is full of a crap ton of replies... But on another note. If your looking for what to believe based of philosophical reasons/regular reasons. then know that seeing all forms as "Everything is fine just the way it is, and the only TRUE problem lies in your perspective of whatever is" could be a solution for all to be well. if you get mad at the 'enlightened' people for thinking that the 'obvious pain' right in front of them is fine, then consider this. If nothing truly existed, and that was the truth. Would pain even matter? (Fyi - Not enlightened, and that statement could be totally wrong) I mean... pain is based upon the reason that it exists. But if you saw that it didn't exist, would it even matter? Why spend time worrying over something that doesn't exists? And yes you see pain happening right in front of you. But how do you know the pain is actually the thing that is making them unhappy? I used to be unwell a lot from looks, but I changed my belief and now I'm more well. In this case belief was what was the source of making me unhappy, and yes there was pain and it made me unhappy. But pain wasn't the problem. You blame the 'enlightened' thinkers for saying that "everything is fine just the way it is" And you say this because you see that things obviously cause people pain. And yet the pain-causers are not to blame (<--- I can elaborate on this if you want me to). So do you blame the pain? I think the statement says that objectively all there is, are a bunch of 'stuff' doing shit. And when you see the pain happening around you. The pain is happening yes, but is not a matter 'objective form' instead is caused by people and their own beliefs/experiences. (I don't think) being enlightened means your not empathetic, and maybe you misinterpreted the statement as a belief instead of as advice. (P.S. for anyone to lazy to read my post, I basically I said: How morality isn't objective, would you care if pain didn't exist? Pain is not necessarily to blame, enlightened people can be empathetic)

@Nahm Alright. I think stuff will work out for now. I guess I don't really need to know what the eye thing is, but hey it works so why not use it. Thanks for the help! Even if it wasn't needed for this situation I'm still glad I got the thing about crying.