Faceless

@Shanmugam Let’s keep it at a happening/process lol you know why I say this right?

I think he is aware of that. This why I like to think negatively. Not introduce thought induced projections. Example, For me seeing the falseness of the self and negating that, should not be followed by introducing another self or any thought induced projection in its place. A lot of people tend to do that. This is where coherence of thinking has its importance.

This is right. You can not know anyone. People are always changing. To say u know someone means you know them according to an idea of them from the past/memory which is an assumption that you known them as they are now. To know means of memory, knowledge, experience. And anything that is static, dead, is of the past. But the ever changing movment of the now is constant, dynamic, and always new. We are in a constant state of change. You are not the same one day as the next. This is important to inquire into. And not getting trapped in measure/comparison is also very important. Can’t learn objectively about the self with this constant ‘desire’ to improve. That prevents total observation and attention because there is a bias introduced which will introduce incoherence into the investigation..It’s about attention without motive. Also another good tip from @Shanmugam is if this measure/comparison is watched very carefully this compulsion to feel superior to another will cease. Over all a very important message.

Yes it is very similar. The known being the accumulation of ones past, knowledge, experience, really seems to crowd the perception. This is usually how it works as a process if you watch closely. First there is perception, a direct seeing before thought enters. So there’s perception ‘seeing’, then contact, then sensation, then thought comes along, creates an image, then the movement of desire which breeds further mechanical compulsion for thought to enter in habitually...For a baby before a certain age or before self awarness sets in it goes through this constant state of perception without the perceiver. I have observed it in my 2 year old. I observerd this in him from the age of 15 months to 24 months and it’s so apparent that that is what happens. The self awarness, the increased capacity of identification to or with memory, knowledge, experience begins to approach each moment ‘the now’ with that of thought ‘memory, knowledge, and experience. So after this process starts perception ‘without thought’ becomes mechanicaly overriden by thought ‘the mechanical response to memory. The baby goes from constant perception without the perceiver to the perception according to the perceiver. Which is how adults are but adults are worse because they have built up quite a bit of conditioning ‘identifications and associations of relationships between themselves and there surroundings’ over the years. So that is why it’s very important to become coherent of thought. In this coherence we know when thought is useful and not. This is beginning of real meditation to me. This is how headlessness is able to flower. Can you see this in your own experiences. Can you see this process from your own experience of living??

I just investigated something about Tao. This was for fun but I found that Headlessness ‘non-experiencing’ or perception wihout the perceiver is very very similar to what I have understood about the Tao. It touches on the essence of truth. Actually quite interesting how it correlates to perception and the immeasurable.

This is why I it’s important to not petestualize anyone, and stress that to who ever you are sharing with. It’s not a teaching from the guru to the student. It’s a teaching where ‘teacher’ and th student’ are in a process of together.

I read you. I watched some tolle after you showed me that vid. Thing I like about him is he really emphasizes attention to thought in daily life. And because I have gone into thought/the self fairly deep it’s really simple to put what he says together because I have systematically approached thought already. From what I seen tolle scratches the surface on thought/self as far as detail. But like I said it’s the attention to yourself within the day that really gets one started and determines freedom from thought patterns. I think he knows the detail but he’s just not going to reach the general public with that.

If you think about it thinking is delayed action. Kinda a subtle form of procrastination. U know when people say, ‘well let me think about it think about it’ ?. That delay/interval is a form of procrastination.

Suffering=growth=Suffering its more about using the energy derived from that suffering to fuel an inquiry why we are suffering. Using the energy in and as attention/awarness ‘with no motive’ without condemning or justifying what is observed. Resisting the what is ‘suffering’ is to condemn. Accepting what is ‘suffering’ is to justify. both are simply reactions to suffering. It’s about a choicless awareness of what is. Just to watch

@Joseph Maynor im sure you know I’m picky about gurus/teachers but so far I don’t see a any red flags. But then again I haven’t seen much yet.

It’s not about the speaker, communicator anyway. It’s about what is communicated. He doesn’t get to detailed on this but it’s a beginning and something to look into. next would be to investigate if what is said is so.

Meditation Is Non-doing When people come to me and they ask, "How to meditate?" I tell them, "There is no need to ask how to meditate, just ask how to remain unoccupied. Meditation happens spontaneously. Just ask how to remain unoccupied, that's all. That's the whole trick of meditation - how to remain unoccupied. Then you cannot do anything. The meditation will flower. When you are not doing anything the energy moves towards the center, it settles down towards the center. When you are doing something the energy moves out. Doing is a way of moving out. Non-doing is a way of moving in. Occupation is an escape. You can read the Bible, you can make it an occupation. There is no difference between religious occupation and secular occupation: all occupations are occupations, and they help you to cling outside your being. They are excuses to remain outside. Man is ignorant and blind, and he wants to remain ignorant and blind, because to come inwards looks like entering a chaos. And it is so; inside you have created a chaos. You have to encounter it and go through it. Courage is needed - courage to be oneself, and courage to move inwards. I have not come across a greater courage than that - the courage to be meditative. But people who are engaged outside - with worldly things or nonworldly things, but occupied all the same, they think ....and they have created a rumor around it, they have their own philosophers. They say that if you are introvert you are somehow morbid, something is wrong with you. And they are in the majority. If you meditate, if you sit silently, they will joke about you: "What are you doing? - gazing at your navel? What are you doing? - opening the third eye? Where are you going? Are you morbid?...because what is there to do inside? There is nothing inside." Inside doesn't exist for the majority of people, only the outside exists. And just the opposite is the case - only inside is real; outside is nothing but a dream. But they call introverts morbid, they call meditators morbid. In the West they think that the East is little morbid. What is the point of sitting alone and looking inwards? What are you going to get there? There is nothing. David Hume, one of the great British philosophers, tried once... because he was studying the Upanishads and they go on saying: Go in, go in, go in - that is their only message. So he tried it. He closed his eyes one day - a totally secular man, very logical, empirical, but not meditative at all - he closed his eyes and he said, "It is so boring! It is a boredom to look in. Thoughts move, sometimes a few emotions, and they go on racing in the mind, and you go on looking at them - what is the point of it? It is useless. It has no utility." And this is the understanding of many people. Hume's standpoint is that of the majority: What are going to get inside? There is darkness, thoughts floating here and there. What will you do? What will come out of it? If Hume had waited a little longer - and that is difficult for such people - if he had been a little more patient, by and by thought disappear, emotions subside. But if it had happened to him he would have said, "That is even worse, because emptiness comes. At least first there were thoughts, something to be occupied with, to look at, to think about. Now even thoughts have disappeared; only emptiness....What to do with emptiness? It is absolutely useless." But if he had waited a little more, then darkness also disappears. It is just like when you come from the hot sun and you enter your house: everything looks dark because your eyes need a little attunement. They are fixed on the hot sun outside; comparatively, your house looks dark. You cannot see, you feel as if it is night. But you wait, you sit, you rest in a chair, and after few seconds the eyes get attuned. Now it is not dark, a little more light........You rest for an hour, and everything is light, there is no darkness at all. If Hume had waited a little longer, then darkness also disappears. Because you have lived in the hot sun outside for many lives your eyes have become fixed, they have lost flexibility. They need tuning. When one comes inside the house it takes a little while, a little time, a patience. Don't be in a hurry. In haste nobody can come to know himself. It is a very very deep awaiting. Infinite patience is needed. By and by darkness disappears. There comes a light with no source There is no flame in it, no lamp is burning, no sun is there. A light, just like it is morning: the night has disappeared, and the sun has not risen.... Or in the evening - the twilight, when the sun has set and night has not yet descended. That's why Hindus call their prayer time sandhya. Sandhya means twilight, light without any source. When you move inwards you will come to the light without any source. In that light, for the first time you start understanding yourself, who you are, because you are that light. You are that twilight, that sandhya, that pure clarity, that perception, where the observer and the observed disappear, and only the light remains.

This was a post by @Shanmugam Anand Buddha, God is not an experience. No experience as such is spiritual; all experiences are mind games. Beware of it. Whatsoever can be seen will be part of the illusory world. The seer is the truth, not the seen. You can see auras and you can see angels and you can see kundalini rising and you can see inner lights — but they are all seen. They are not you. The seer is the witness, and only the witness is the truth. All else is a dream. And there are worldly dreams and there are other-worldly dreams; there are materialistic dreams and there are spiritualistic dreams. One thing has to be remembered always, that whatsoever is seen is worthless — even if it is God. The God that is seen is worthless. When all experiences disappear and you are left utterly alone, nothing to see, only emptiness in the hands, no experience at all, then suddenly you realize yourself. Then you turn upon yourself, then you fall into your source. And that is not an experience, it is a realization. That is the difference between the words “experience” and “realization”. It is not that you have seen something, experienced something. Now you know who you are. The great Sufi mystic Maghrebi says, Don’t speak to us of visions and miracles, for we have long ago transcended such things. We saw them all to be illusion and dreams, and dauntlessly we passed beyond them. Anand Buddha, you will meet many people here who will go on playing these games. They are simply wasting their time. Avoid their company. I am going to attract all kinds of people, and particularly the people who are interested in spiritualism. They will bring all their diseases here. They will talk nonsense — they will talk about miracles, psychic experiences. And naturally, when somebody talks about such things, you start feeling as if you are missing. You are not missing a thing, because he is only dreaming. But he can create this feeling in you, that you are lacking something, that your growth is not going well, that you are not growing as fast as you should grow. He will create in you the feeling of inferiority, and that is dangerous. Once you start feeling inferior you become sad, depressed, you carry a heavy weight on your chest; and that will become a hindrance in your growth. And every possibility is there that if you desire you will start seeing these things. Desire creates dreams. If you start thinking that you are missing, soon your mind will project. The mind is always ready to give you anything that you desire, and particularly such things. If you desire money it will be difficult because it is not only a question of your own mind. If you desire to become the president of a country it may not be easy because there may be much competition. But if you want to see auras there is no competition, and nobody can hinder you, and you are not taking somebody else’s auras; you are creating your own. It is a private, idiotic world. This is the meaning of the word “idiot”: it means having a private world of one’s own experiences which do not collaborate with reality. I know a few people are here; they enjoy a kind of leadership because they can gather a few people around themselves. They start talking about esoteric things. And whenever somebody talks about esoteric things, hidden truths that you are not aware of, he enjoys being a knower and he reduces you to an ignorant person. It hurts. Soon you will also start talking and reading such nonsense books, and they are available in abundance. Here, you are not to be with me to see auras, or to see lights, or to see kundalini energy rising, or the chakras opening. I am trying to hammer this truth into your heart continuously, that the only thing worth attaining is enlightenment, is nirvana, is the realization of who you are. Everything else has to be bypassed. And these things come on the way. The mind tries to allure you to the very end. It gives beautiful psychedelic experiences, very colorful, enchanting. One can get stuck with them. LSD is nothing. If you go on working on your being you will find far deeper, far profounder-appearing experiences happening to you which no LSD can release. And then the desire is to cling to them, and that very desire keeps you away from the ultimate truth. For the ultimate truth, everything has to be sacrificed, all so-called spiritual experiences, esoteric knowledge, miracles. Everything has to be dropped. One has to come to the ultimate experience — which is not an experience…. Language is inadequate to express it; that’s why it is called an “experience”. It is not an experience, because in experience there is a division of the experiencer and the experienced, and in this experience, the ultimate, there is no division. You are the knower, you are the known, you are the seer, you are the seen, you are the experiencer, you are the experienced — only you are. That absolute, still point of pure existence, that is the goal. All else has to be sacrificed for it. Beware of such things. - The Secret - 14

I just today saw some stuff he has written. Seems pretty sound the couple posts I saw on some topics on here. His observations on experience are spot on. Also from what I’ve seen on the nature of meditation the way he approaches it is, if one understands the nature of thought and the thinker is spot on as well. I just read a few things though so. Im not one to look to others so much. But so far pretty good. If you like tolle you shouldn’t have much a problem with Osho though

?? This is meditation.

Whats said about experience is right on??

Truth is in perception, intelligence, free of the limits of thought ??

Understand yourself and you undertand another. To understand why an ego/self is so dense being ‘conflict and suffering’ is to see that there is psychological turmoil taking place. When we see that this is the driving force behind what is reflected by ‘the self’ we see that state of dispair, anxiety, sorrow, and can meet what is projected with compassion. Instaead of reacting to it and fueling it. If there is honesty when you look at yourself, then there is honesty in a relationship with another.

Can you see that movement in the self? How it flows.

Control over another is a reaction to fear of impermanence in ones self. The function of thought/the self, is to bring about by any means necessary the action to self sustain permanence be it physical & psychological. This function is to sustain a state of safety and security into the system. An attempt to acheive order. Only any movement to seek psychological security only leads to disorder and insecurity, conflict, therfore more fear and expressed reactions of volition to overcome a challenge.@MarkusSweden

That is the function of Thought/the self, to measure/compare.... No I don’t get involved with concepts, theory’s, philosophy’s. I deal with real facts ‘ what is actually happening’ not what should be just pay attention to this jealousy. Doesn’t rationalize it or condemn it. Just let it do what it does. But be aware of that movement. For now ??

Your comparing yourself ‘measuring’. Dont try and get rid of jealousy, ‘you’ can’t. Why are you measuring or comparing? what is the motive? Why do you want what he has?

@OnceMoreBeing aware of the fact without escaping becomes its own action. Then inquire into why one is jealous

But it is occurring ‘the fact’ Ask yourself is “the you” seperate for that which you call jealousy? Or is “the you” jealousy? if you are not separate from jealousy how can You change that fact?? Think about it? Be simple about it.

That’s avoiding the problem of jealousy