Carl-Richard

Yes. What people don't seem to understand is that "your perspective" is a dream character looking out at the world. It's not infinite, it's not absolute. The infinite and absolute is beyond your perspective, beyond all perspectives. It reaches in and contains your perspective, but that doesn't exclude other perspectives from being possible or real. It's like saying two clowns can't fit in a clown car because reality is infinite and only one clown truly exists. It's completely incoherent. There are other ways to argue for solipsism that are more coherent (but which I still don't find very palatable for other reasons), but this ain't it.

For the solipsists: doesn't it feel a little destabilizing to know that merely five and a half years ago (and probably more recently as well), you would've been completely deluded about solipsism, according to Leo? And if we assume that you are thinking for yourself, that by apparently some odd fluke, a huge chunk of you seem to agree with the current Leo and not the former? And then, notice the amount of comments in the 2019 thread that agreed with the former Leo and not the current Leo. If you are indeed thinking for yourself and "staying true to your experience", shouldn't this make you feel a little uneasy?

So you are playing a word game: you're simply re-defining what idealists call "consciousness" as "the limitless" and "localized identity within consciousness" as "consciousness". That's simply a word game. But it's at least good that you're making the distinction between an infinite existential ground (God's mind) and finite psychological structures (individual persons' minds). Not many people seem to be able to do that here and hence fall into solipsism, mixing the finite and the infinite.

Don't make the mistake of quoting something Leo has said in the past 😛:

Your post was "I have meditated" and "consciousness is localized". I had already responded to the latter, so I responded to the former. In my view, you're simply re-defining what I define as "consciousness" as "the limitless". The limitless can be known, you can become conscious of it; you already are conscious of it, you just forgot. You forgot through the process of localizing yourself as a separate locus of consciousness, a limited identity, what you define as "consciousness". If you think the limitless can be known by direct acquaintance, then it's consciousness and you're simply playing word games by giving it another name. If you don't think it can be known through direct acquaintance, you're a materialist or a dual aspect monist or something like that (where the bottom layer of reality cannot be known through direct acquaintance).

You can do meditation for 20 years and not get much results, just like you can do philosophy for 20 years and believe in solipsism.

😂 I wish I had read these philosophers so I knew exactly what you're pointing at. It does seem like it could make sense, I'm just unfamiliar with the concepts. I thought about including this but I would've been to long, and I wasn't sure how to formulate it. But that seems to make sense.

I didn't ask you about whether you have meditated for many years or your "level of awakeness". You brought that up.

Explain how "your eyes are you in 2D" in a way that is not beyond Terrence Howard levels of incoherent and I'll give you 100 dollars.

Yeah.

I'm a solo-clown-ist: I don't believe you can fit two clowns in a clown car. Why? Because I just drew that arbitrary distinction. That's what solipsism looks like to me. If I believe that I'm infinite consciousness dreaming up reality, I wouldn't use that to draw very particular conclusions about the finite. The infinite is infinite, that's it. And if I want to make statements about the finite, I would do that based on other finite things, like observation, intuition, logic, rationality. And then I would concede that I'm stepping out of the infinite in order to make statements about the finite (for the sake of understanding the finite). And when I do that, stopping at my own eyes also seems odd.

I'm just saying what I think. I could be mistaken.

I can also be dreaming that I'm on a vacation with my GF (imaginary of course) and we go to one of those tourist places where you can see through binoculars. Then when I see through them, my GF asks "what do you see?". And I answer: "mountains, birds, and also the Empire State building". Then when my GF sees through them, I ask her what does she see. She answers "I see mountains, birds and, yes, there is the Empire State building". Now, was I dreaming all that as infinite consciousness? Sure. Was it only me who saw the Empire State building? No. Was it only me who experienced the Empire State building? Probably no. If this is the case, it's very weird to say "other people don't experience anything" (which I don't know if you've noticed, people like to say). You can say it's all dreamed up, but that the dream should stop at my eyes, that's just odd.

How can you move in 2D space if consciousness is always in the same spot? Take some vitamins or something.

I don't think you do.

Space is visual extension. It's a concept with content. It's not nothing. If you draw two points and a line between them, that's space. If you don't draw two points and a line, that's more like nothing.

Consciousness has fish, consciousness has people, people have eyes, fish have eyes, eyes see only what is in front of them, what their eyes see is limited, it's a limited point of view. Do you agree?

Reality isn't just 2D. Wake up 😂

There is no room. When you take a psychedelic, you're in a psychotic state where everyday reality melts at the seams and you gradually start to deconstruct certain notions, but you didn't deconstruct it all the way. You were stuck in limbo, which is apparently what most psychedelic fanatics are, perpetually.

To show people something completely arbitrary which you conceived during a DP/DR episode during an alcohol-infused trip you had at a LAN party with friends? Sure, I also have stories from when I tripped with friends and spent an hour staring at a keyboard because I didn't know what the fuck was going on.

No, that's you describing individualized mind-body consciousness. Consciousness exists before that. You can deconstruct your mind and body right now if you try to sit very still and become one with silence and that which doesn't move (it usually takes practice of course). But you don't even need to do that; deep sleep is pretty much the same thing, but you probably don't notice that you actually are conscious during deep sleep, because you're too identified with your mind and body to notice the transition or subtlety of the state.

The fucking wall is a mental construct. Why draw an arbitrary line around the third dimension? All dimensions are a mental construct. This is why people fall into solipsism, making half-assed conclusions about what is a mental construct and what is not. I've had that on weed when opening the fridge. That doesn't mean much. Weird things happen in the illusion. Contemplate sober.

ChatGPT is actually pretty based.

💯

If Leo thinks a toilet exists but not other people, he puts primacy to some spatio-temporal entities over others, hence his metaphysics depends on space and time, hence it's not absolute (because space and time is relative).