Carl-Richard

Now that this thread was revived for some reason, just before this happened, I ran across this video by Terrence McKenna (one the aforementioned representatives of the psychonaut approach — arguably the main figurehead, or at least one of the pioneers), and he basically nails the distinction I've been trying to make here in the first 2 minutes of this video. If you understand what he is saying, it's virtually certain that you also understand my point:

@Alex_R ?

You do it for yourself.

Makes zero sense.

There is no "why" to reality. Why should there be?

Haha that kind of strange loopy stuff reminds me of this video: 2:02

Like @Nilsi, you got hung up on the word "self-referential thinking" from the title. I guess I'm sorry that the title of the thread couldn't capture all of the nuances of the topics discussed Therapy is a guided problem-solving session. Rumination, while it involves recalling unresolved problems, is not problem-solving, because there is no work being done, no progress being made. As I've established earlier, rumination makes up the majority of self-referential thinking. Therefore, to refer to self-referential thinking as something dysfunctional is not completely unwarranted, but yes, it can be misleading from a more granular perspective.

I thought you were defending rumination and general dysfunction in your mental illness and people-missing-their-legs advocacy.

I think people who are generally "consumed" by thoughts, generally experience a large proportion of negative thoughts. It was that way for me, and the science seems to agree, and it generally seems to make sense. Negative thoughts are usually about unresolved problems, and because they're unresolved, they tend to get stuck on repeat, which is what rumination is. A solution happens in a flash, and then it's solved — thinking about it no longer serves a function. So if a thought is negative, it's most likely going to repeat, and because it repeats, it's going to make up a large proportion of thoughts. Anyways, I would say that spiritual growth is when you increase your capacity to not just love, but live, and a good (but not perfect) measurement for that is the ability to be present, as opposed to being consumed by negative thoughts.

Holy shit I didn't know Maynard James Keenan did a collaboration with Robert Fripp This was literally my face the entire song:

Is being consumed by negative thoughts conducive to love?

Is it possible to grow in one's capacity to love, or is it something you're born with?

Which is?

@Tyler Robinson @Proserpina What do you think spirituality is?

There was a loss of functioning there, yes.

Society usually calls something a mental health problem if, according to society, there is a problem with functionality.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8429319/

He is a great intellectual. You just don't agree with him politically. This reminds me of when I was writing my research paper and I was arguing with myself about whether I should find arguments for whether or not Christianity can be considered a religion, or whether I should just say it's a trivial point and move on I think it's a trivial point.

Do you want me to prove it to you?

"Because there is nothing uglier than an old infant ?" - Jordan Peterson Adulthood in its own time is important.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Ye I know.

You ready for that?

Firstly, I think the label of "self-referential thinking" could be misleading. It's better to talk about neural correlates. Secondly, you think you're thinking, but you're really just reporting ;D The unconscious mind is really what is driving the show. Gary Weber talks about it in the video (he uses the analogy of "the rider and the elephant"). But yeah, about the neural correlates: When you're problem-solving, you're primarily using the task-positive network. "Deliberately reflecting on yourself for whatever purpose" sounds like problem-solving to me. On the other hand, when you're not doing any deep problem-solving, most people primarily switch to the task-negative network (i.e. compulsively thinking I/me/my thoughts). Nobody is advocating for eliminating the episodic memory, only for reducing prolonged stays in the task-negative network.

Yup. It's really just different variations of selflessness. I remember my downward spiral at 17-18 years old, and it was exactly what the video above describes: the adult child who burrows down into his fantasies and doesn't want to take responsibility. It's "me-me-me". The adult wakes up and realizes the sacrifices that need to be made. The ultimate adulthood is when the "me-me-me" dies, and life becomes pure service (to God).

It serves a purpose, just like ejaculating sperm serves a purpose. That does not mean higher functioning. But again, how (or when) you go about getting there matters. You probably shouldn't aim for shutting down self-referential thoughts if you don't have your lower needs met.