Dovahkiin

@d0ornokey why move there? I don’t plan to, but was asking @brovakhiin about it because he mentioned digital nomads, and CM is like the world capital of being a digital nomad. It’s very cheap, modern, friendly, has cool nature, a lot of sweet temples, amazing markets (eg the night markets) - loved visiting.

@Nexeternity got it, thanks for the clarification. I was just going off of the comments from your initial post of “think the right should die,” “are happy when soldiers die or get PTSD,” etc. It sounds like there’s more to these guys, and definitely sounds possible they are green in many ways. It just also sounded very possible they are using green values for blue and orange purposes, and I thought this was a good segue to contemplate something about SD in general: the problem with using an opinion to categorize a stage of consciousness, and the potential for prior stages to “hijack” the appearance of later stages. Ultimately you know these guys, not me! More important to me are the larger, more generalized points. Cheers!

@Scholar Yeah, I think your point that ideologies may be more likely to arise from states of consciousness along the spiral, but that the reverse - an ideology implying a state of consciousness - is really apt and exactly what I’m trying to talk around. Way more likely a green person puts compassion for oppressed people over an ideal of justice than lacking compassion for certain groups. I’m with you on green seeing all perspectives as valid, but seeing all perspectives as necessary or inevitable seems yellow. But then again, I’m with you on not defining someone’s level of consciousness based on one belief. Ultimately SD is infinitely dimensional like anything and categorizations are bound the fall short. Categorizations can be useful nonetheless though, I guess.

@Leo Gura @Nexeternity This seems like a prime example of 1) how people almost always straddle multiples stages and 2) how the model breaks down when we try to assign particular opinions / political stances (as opposed to generalized ways of thinking) to certain stages. Green is defined by belief in equality and wide-reaching compassion. Leo, you’ve used this as a justification (which I agree with) for dispelling the fear that SJWs pose some kind of threat as collectivist thinkers. You’ve pointed out that the Soviet Union and previous iterations or communism have been blue, not green, and that your typical SJW is not the threat orange projects onto them. All true. Your typical green nowadays isn’t anything like collectivist ideologies of the past, and orange shouldn’t be so fearful. These people, however, are literally calling for the death of significant portions of the population. They furthermore reject ideas of spirituality and are nearly full-blown materialists, rationalists and pragmatists, per Nexeternity’s follow-up post. This is not just green with a few kinks! I think the problem goes back to your depiction of blue through the very narrow lens of how blue has manifested in America, the religious right, the Bible Belt, etc. By defining blue this way and then listing off hundreds of groups/opinions that define orange and green (I assume this is what you’ll do for Green), you ignore the possibility of blue consciousness latching onto one of these groups/opinions, which I’m convinced happens in the modern world, where people are exposed to all kinds of ideas left and right. You admit that there can be orange self-help or green self-help or yellow-self help. This can’t be maintained without allowing for this type of nuance applying to the other categories you list, such as progressive ideals. The boxing in of so many groups and opinions into just one color isn’t tenable. One of the subtler elements of the SD model is important here: the fact that the ego of any stage likes to fancy itself as being two stages above where it is. You alluded to this in your first SD video, and indeed, in 1951 Carl Rogers coined the idea of an “actualising tendency,” or a bias toward one side of the spiral or the other. Don Beck ended up echoing the idea, and it seems to basically come down to a bias toward either agency or communion - the individual or the collective. People will lean more heavily to one side or the other, and as a result be more amenable to stages on the same side, hence the feuds between neighboring SD stages being the most intense, and hence these coworkers espousing some green, but doing it in a blue way and lashing out against much of orange (blue and green are both collectively biased, orange biased toward the individual). When I watched your first video I felt myself really wanting to be yellow (I was orange). After all, isn’t yellow defined by knowing the model? I know the model now. If I’m yellow, that means I’ve evolved much further than most people! It means I’m awesome! Seeing this nonsense in myself, I can see parallels across stages: Red: Hey, I’m really no worse than those wall steeet guys- just looking out for numero uno! Blue: The absolute best values are fairness and equality. Now I know the truth. We need to squash all who are preventing equality. Orange: I get spiral dynamics now! I’m second-tier! #Winning Green: With my newfound appreciation of spirituality, openmindness and connection to my heart, I’m surely almost enlightened. So, more relevantly to this discussion, blue can put on a green costume. One can adopt the ideals of progressivism while still lacking compassion for much of life. One can claim to want fairness and then create and follow a rigid, absolutist dogma of what fairness is. You aren’t seeing this because you defined blue in a narrower context than the other stages. The claim that someone can be green without integrating the prior stages hugely contradicts the fundamental principle you’ve taught- that people move in one direction up the spiral and pass through each stage, with each stage furthermore LEADING to the next, in the way dissatisfaction with materialism and a hurting heart unveil green. This direct a criticism may have sounded arrogant but I’m willing to risk that to express what feels like an important problem clearly.

@brovakhiin hah, same. Looking at Chiang Mai? Loved it there. It seems like California just has the most green-oriented stuff in the U.S. if you can swing it. Surprised Ed no one has mentioned Boulder or any other Colorado towns.

@Leo Gura making the green / blue distinction on the lines of attitude toward hierarchy, and pointing out that closed mindedness can still exist at Green, does make sense I guess and jives with my knowledge graph / web of beliefs. My only problem is that I can think of a lot of examples from my personal life, family and friends as well as public figures (I think the Cathy Newman example still applies) of people who are extremely passionate about a “Green” cause, but really don’t seem to have integrated what’s supposed to precede Green, eg rationality or any sort of orange phase. PETA is a good example of what I’m talking about. I’ve heard things from their former employees that sound practically red. How can someone be green but not have transcended former stages? It seems like more than just the trappings or dysfunction included in green. I’m guessing my confusion is partly not appreciating that people can be spread across colors, and also partly the remnants of orange in me projecting stuff onto green. For whatever reason it’s been something my mind’s been stuck on since even before this blue video, so thanks for the follow up.

Can’t anything be used as a stage blue accessory once it’s held as an ideology or a paradigm pointing toward absolute truth? It does seem orange is “absolutist” with respect to rationality and materialism, no? In a similar vein, doesn’t the stage blue video ignore the potential for blue in non-religious contexts by focusing so heavily on Christian and Muslim examples of blue? It seemed like conflating religion with absolutism in general could cause you to call a lot of blue thinkers green thinkers. Example: radical feminism and its opponents. While the genuinely striving for equality brand of feminism seems green, isn’t the case of someone who adopts it as core to their identity and holds patriarchy theory as a dogma pretty blue? Isn’t the war between people like this and MRAs/Manosphere people a non-religious manifestation of blue vs. blue? Think Jordan Peterson vs Cathy Newman. Thanks for the video anyhow @Leo Gura. The initial spiral dynamics video was one of your most instructive for me, so looking forward to the upcoming elaboration videos.

Don't think that consciousness or mindfulness increase in a linear fashion. Far from it. This is way too small a sample size on which to self-flagellate. These things ebb and flow a bunch on the journey

Hi everybody. Over the last few months I've grown gradually more confused about how to go forward in my meditation practice, and I think this community is the best place I can turn for some quick advice. There are a ton of techniques I want to explore further - Do-Nothing, Mindfulness, Samatha practices, Self-Inquiry. However, at a recent Vipassana retreat (Goenka-style) I connected more with the Vipassana technique than perhaps any other technique. Goenka advocates Vipassana-only (albeit with a little Metta), and many people in those circles even go so far as saying different practices are like different wells for water - useless - and one must choose a single technique. To be honest, it seems dogmatic to me. My dilemma is that I don't feel experienced enough to select the right portion of what I learned on retreat (i.e. a certain amount of Vipassana via the method I learned, and doing sittings of strong determination regardless of type of meditation) and leave what I don't need. How can I trust my mind to make this decision? I like some alternatives I've stumbled on: I like the idea of incorporating self-inquiry into Vipassana, but I'm not sure how it should look on a detailed level. Body scan for a while and then switch to self-inquiry questioning / contemplation when the spirit moves me? @Leo Gura has mentioned this sort of thing, but if anyone can learn me on how this kind of combination would look or point me to a resource, that'd be great. Along these lines, 3 speed transmission (Kenneth Folk) sounds good, but I still feel unsure of the mechanisms of switching between / combining practices like this. Ultimately, I see the danger I'm in here of neglecting doing serious work by continuing to think about these things instead of just picking something and doing it. Hopefully, responses will be useful for more people than just me - how does one strike a balance between trying a ton of stuff and decisively picking a direction, without skirting real work, and without going down the wrong dogmatic road? Everyone's different, so even general principles speaking to this challenge (as opposed to an explicit recommendation) would be great. Thanks all.

@Leo Gura Have you ever considered taking a video down because it no longer represents your views / teachings? Also, how much value do you think there is in the scientific and neuroscientific study of meditation, ala Dave Vago, Willoughby Britton, etc? The Dalai Lama seems to be a fan; do you see potential here beyond slightly opening Western minds?

To be clear I’m all for contemplation. But brooding monkey mind loops of chatter masquerading as contemplation, especially when in a dark mood, are no good. I’m definitely guilty of this.

@Jedd aside from practicing equaniminity as best you can - trying to accept your experience that the mind is labeling as bad and just be with what’s happening - I think counseling / therapy can be very helpful for anyone. For the sleep itself a bedtime routine often helps, but for the root of the issue, if you can afford it, seeing a counselor could be really helpful.

Hey all! There are a couple things I'm wondering after finishing Leo's video; I did my own research where I could (i.e. on wheat's industrial history), but am still wondering a few things, and hoping someone might be able to guide me: 1. Why is deli meat so bad? Is it just because it's commonly not grass-fed? 2. What about kefir? It's supposed to be mostly lactose-free from fermantation, so it is an acceptable compliment to kombucha for probiotics? 3. What do you guys make of dining hall food, assuming one sticks to whole foods and still avoids everything on the bad list? I'm about to be a graduate student considering making this a part of my diet, but feel as if dining halls might likely be taking shortcuts even on simple vegetables, meats, etc. Any thoughts? Thanks!

Thanks, this helps for sure, and makes sense. I have found kefir that isn’t filled with sugar so I’ll stick with it. I only mention kombucha because the two seem to have different probiotics, so drinking both covers more bases, but I admittedly don’t know a ton in that area. And yeah, I meant cold-cuts and the like. I’ll sill purchase raw meat, bacon, etc. Appreciate the response.

@Leightonm first know that the path you’re on, meditation, etc can be destabilizing and this is normal. If you do these practices you’re bound to be confused sometimes. Second id suggest not feeding too much into this mental chatter (eg “the realness doesn’t seem to give a fuck,” “am I trying to attack God?”). It’s very unlikely you can analyze / think your way out of all the murky, confusing ideas floating around in your head, even though your mind is surely making you feel like that’s exactly what you should do. All you can do is accept your reality right now, and try to take in that it’s impermanent. An actual understanding of impermanence is of course better than an intellectual one (and this should come in time and practice), but try to keep in mind that the negative moods pass, having a depressed thought/feeling doesn’t mean you need to adopt depression as your identity - you can feel that way sometimes and accept that you feel that way - it’s ok id also just add that if you’re feeling overly serious / weighed down by these existential questions, there’s nothing wrong with just doing something enjoyable, hanging out with friends, doing a hobby and being light for a little bit, giving yourself permission to temporarily stop worrying about these big questions.

Reflexes like what?

@Krishna Siva It sounds like your awareness that everything you care about comes back to yourself is actually a sign of some progress. Plenty of people believe they care about their accomplishments, careers, others' opinions of them, etc. NOT out of care for themselves, when it does pretty much all stem from caring about themselves. Nahm's idea of meditating more sounds good. I'd also just accept your reality. If your way of being is self-obsessed, just notice that and increase awareness. There's a perfectly good reason you're that way, and it doesn't make you a bad person. A shift in focus toward others should follow from this increasing awareness naturally.

Communism isn't a utopia. Communism working as its ideologues wish it would is a vision of utopia. Capitalism working as its ideologues wish it would is a vision of utopia, as well. It definitely wasn't controversial in the economics department at my university, which is well known as pro-free market and capitalist. Yes, communism has failed. The evidence for the problems of capitalism is right in front of you if you live in the U.S. Which corporations have been the most successful? It's certainly not the corporations who "go green." The profit motive does not align with creating well-being for people; it aligns with convincing people to spend their money. Sure, our egos stop us from realizing the communist dream; selfishness defeats the point of sharing. Our egos also stop us from realizing the capitalist dream; selfishness defeats the point of seeking profit that's supposed to be equivalent to seeking providing value to consumers. Being selfish, no system will work perfectly. If we weren't selfish and were all enlightened, any system would be fine. Just my humble opinion - I'm no authority on this - but so much focus on economic system ('communism is best,' 'capitalism is best') is just externalizing the problem.

I agree. I wasn't trying to compare them. Rather, I was comparing 2 hours per day alongside 1 retreat per quarter to living like a monk (so similar to retreat) constantly. Thanks Leo. Even a guestimation at quantifying the difference helps me a lot. I'd definitely second this. I've found sittings of strong determination to be way, way more effective than letting myself fidget, both on retreat and in everyday life. It's worth checking here - https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/locations/directory - as many, many countries have this type of Vipassana center.

@Leo Gura To what extent is going monk-mode like you describe more effective than 2 hours of vipassana a day while being very much a householder (long-term relationship, involved and time-consuming life purpose, self-development junkie, etc)? The 2h/day plan would include a few retreats a year like you've previously recommended. Goenke seems to think it's totally feasible, but how great to you consider the disadvantage to be in terms of pursuing enlightenment? Are we talking monk's 1 year = HH's 10 years? HH's 50 years? HH's 5 lifetimes? If you can't tell there's a lot my ego isn't ready to give up, which is an obstacle in itself.

@ADD Great job jumping into a retreat! I can relate, having finished a Goenke vipassana retreat two weeks ago. Try to treat what is happening to you now, after the retreat, as you learned to be with the happenings of your experience during the retreat. Just because you're not sitting doesn't mean you can't be meditative and use the experiences happening now to grow. So, try your best to be equanimous toward what's happening, including these mood swings. Since being equanimous toward your own mental chatter and story is hard, just focus first on being equanimous toward the associated sensations, i.e. rather than saying "okay, I'm going to be with this dark emotional state with equanimity," just notice the physical sensations that are ACTUALLY happening that are spurring your mind to call it anxiety and fear, and try and be equanimous toward those sensations. In addition to working to let go of aversion to the anxiety / fear, let go of any craving that exists for the happiness, laughter, etc which you've also experienced. Congrats on doing this and continuing it going forward!

What stops you from spending your time in a mor balanced way? Pressure from your SO, or you’re just always tempted to spend time with your SO as procrastination? if the former, you might be avoiding a hard conversation, and if the latter you might be lacking some discipline. Like Aum said meditation should help you assess the situation more clearly either way. YOU decide where you spend time, ultimately.

@Jayden Birch Very happy to help. I like your idea of continuing to think on it and thinking about it in that nuanced way (it's good you have the option to switch). No one has the intuition as to what's right more than you do here. I'm living proof that you could easily spend the next 7 years "keeping your options open" out of fear of choosing wrong and missing potential, and ironically just delay the inevitable process of realizing whatever potential is there by picking a path. Yet, because I went to college in that time and at least tried stuff as far as work, I've learned about what's not for me and am in a good spot to pursue my next hypothesis on my purpose. Gluck!

Definitely agree with aurum's advice for you. I've had a fear of specialization since high school & college, too, and I think it boils down to a fear of missing out on some sort of "potential." Eventually, life purpose becomes about something specific; you don't retain a life purpose that is itself finding your life purpose. Actually getting out there and trying stuff will help you learn more about your passions, and your ideas will change. You'll close some doors, which can feel hard, but walk through the ones that matter. I wouldn't make the rigid rule in your head that education = specialization, though. Education can open doors and give you leads you wouldn't have imagined it would. This is a bummer in the sense that in the U.S. going to university is essentially paying for some sort of status / signaling that you're smart and can perform certain jobs (you can learn 99% of what you learn in college by reading and researching), but especially given the first year is free in NZ, I'd 100% do that. I do think there's something to be said for meeting the diverse people and perspectives you'll encounter in college and being in that atmosphere for a period of time as you learn more about yourself and what you're after in life at this critical juncture.

Do you think trying to think one's way toward a truer understanding of time is like banging one's head against a wall, or could it bear some fruit? I ask because I've heard physicists talk about how the universe's accelerating expansion imply multiverses, and that our conception of time could really just be a construction of some kind of continuity in the fluctuation between the infinite realities / universes that exist. Leo's alluded a lot lately to the propensity of modern science to be dogmatic, though, and I wonder if that between science and non-intellectual awareness is a gap that we can bridge. Would any idea we get of time ultimately just be another conception?