Dovahkiin

Including the LP course?

Beautiful way to put it. Even if it were my last dark cloudy day, I'd wanna be there for it.

@Dragonfly210 Sorry you're going through such tough stuff. I'm sure no one has been through exactly what you're going through, but I'd also bet tons of people here have been through some form of dark night like you. I've definitely gone through some tough periods. Maybe you need to renegotiate or change some relationships in your life. Sometimes the old has to fall apart to make room for the new, whether that's a new way of thinking, new people in your life or a new way of relating to yourself. Regardless, sounds like a very good idea to see a therapist like you are. That'll keep you grounded and help you be practical while providing an outlet to talk through what you need to. I'm limited in how much I can help over an internet forum like this, but keep in mind that everything changes. Your level of social awkwardness will ebb and flow. How much bliss you are in touch with will ebb and flow. However bad it seems, it isn't permanent. Hang in there

@Consilience Nice, I want to read The Mind Illuminated; it's been on my list too long. Best wishes with Kriya when you get there The veil has only been truly lifted on psychedelics for like 50 years. Who knows what Jesus, the Buddha, Muhammad, Lao Tzu, Dharmakirti, Lahiri Mahasaya or any pre-20th-century enlightened person would have said about them? I dunno! They also remain very stigmatized, so only a small percentage of people who believe them to be enlightening will cop to that belief publicly. I also know a lot of people not into spirituality who use psychedelics to "get fucked up." People use the internet for porn, use the coca plant (a potentially useful and healing plant) for cocaine, and use the incredible alchemical discovery of combustion for monster truck rallies. So I don't think this has any bearing on the enlightening *potential* of psychedelics.

@ardacigin You have no clue what my practice is like I practiced for one month of nonstop vipassana in a monastic setting in Nepal before this retreat. I understand discipline and "applying the techniques properly." And just because I rated the growth as lower than psychedelic growth doesn't mean it wasn't substantial. I spent hours in bliss fully present with every footstep, loving every action and moment. I saw some wild stuff manifest in the mind and body. Yet, one ayahuasca retreat I did was like 10 years of therapy in one weekend, and I have to call that more impactful (as of now). There are poems from the first enlightened nuns which talk about practicing for YEARS with little sign of awakening, and then finally getting it one day. Progress and growth aren't linear. And if you want to develop true equanimity, that means learning to be equanimous while actually struggling in meditation practice. You are correct about the importance of discipline, but should be careful assuming that discipline and ease are opposites. You need some ease for your heart to actually be in these practices. My answer should not inform your decision. Every person, trip and meditative roadmap is different. I started with 3g of mushrooms, so this is what I was referring to. I'd recommend less on the first time.

@Highest How can you possibly know this to be true? You'd have to longitudinally see how people develop using every different combination of methods. Any state of consciousness achieved through meditation or self-inquiry is still impermanent. Impermanence is one of three characteristics of all things according to the Buddhists which originated what we know as meditation today.

@Consilience What practices have helped you the most with concentration?

@Consilience Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything you wrote. Kriya is the next big frontier for me. Within meditation, Buddhists analogize vipassana to the sharpness of a blade and samatha to the weight behind it. If you want the blade to cut through delusion, you need to enjoy practice to some degree (samatha) so that you're motivated to have the insight. But also keep in mind that just cultivating happiness during meditation isn't insight. My practice was super enjoyable in 2017 leading up to a peak meditative experience, and afterward got hard and brutal. There seem to be seasons to a meditator's (or kriyaban's or psychonaut's) life and practice.

@Austin Actualizing Yes, they're 100% worth doing. I don't think I could have handled the psychedelics without having meditated for 3 years prior. I barely could handle the psychedelics as it happened. Also, you aren't gonna be tripping daily or anything, so meditation is a great thing to do daily to keep perspective and maintain a bridge of awareness between everyday life and spiritual work. I also can't be sure how much I grew from the retreat, because there's still a ton of integrating to do. Maybe something tragic happens in two months and I handle it way more gracefully than I would have before. I don't think you can measure growth in any one moment because it mushrooms and unfolds over the course of your life.

@Consilience It varies. I've had periods of an hour with very few lapses in mindfulness, and scattered periods. Also, in vipassana you aren't typically stabilizing attention on one thing, but being with whatever comes up.

I just finished a 3-month insight meditation retreat — non-stop vipassana — and the growth there seems no greater than that from a few trips I had this year. I’m still glad I did it, will still practice daily, but the idea of seeing all the mind’s patterning and deconstructing it with meditation alone is starting to seem foolhardy. There are so many monastics and serial retreatants who don’t seem to get anywhere.

@ardacigin I like that metaphor of particle -- single-pointed practice -- jhana, and wave -- awareness -- insight. It does seem "dry insight" is a bit of a misnomer, because in the Mahasi style you're developing concentration through your primary object. I'm curious if what I've heard about concentration attainments being irrelevant to the first few paths but then necessary for the third has anything to it.

@Girzo I haven't been on the forum in a while, but belated thanks!

@Leo Gura If it's better to not spoil the booklist, could you answer in a way that will make sense to me just from looking at the titles / authors?

Hey everyone, I just bought Leo's booklist, and while I'll probably eventually read both texts I see on there about Kriya yoga, which should I read first? I'm unclear on which Leo was referring to in his video - one to follow while beginning the practice.

I’m thinking because ego identification is a spectrum rather than a binary. The animals we most closely relate to tend to be the ones we see as having a “personality.” Monkeys and dogs clearly seem to have personalities to us. Birds? Ants? Not so much.

I definitely relate to this. Its not that hard to parrot those with nondual wisdom, to talk the talk of spirituality. For sure all this learning and talking is useful in that it points people toward the practices that assist them up the mountain, but for me personally, I’ve gotten the sense that the paradigm shifts, breakthroughs, awakening is to come from the work itself, and only motivation / pointers / course correction is going to come from the talk. In Leo’s video ‘What is God,’ he even says that the whole point of what he’s doing - trying to communicate something beyond words - is to encourage you to discover it for yourself.

Depends on which ‘we’ you’re talking about!

Have you read Ludwik Fleck's 'Genesis and Development of a Scientific Fact?' I'm going through it now and keep getting reminded of the book you've said you're working on on epistemology, scientific thought (e.g. belief in sound waves, ear drums, etc), etc. Fleck talks a lot about thinking as something not truly done by individuals, and only made possible by collective consciousness, the stories we've culturally / scientifically accepted, etc. It's been surprising and refreshing amidst grad school readings that rarely if ever relate to the type of content on actualized.

@traveler also I struggled with eating as well during retreat. The monk suggested focusing less on mindfulness during meals so that I could still maintain “hunger” and not deconstruct it and starve myself. Starving yourself would drain you faster than it enlightens you. So I’d suggest to just make yourself eat!

1) once you get into this territory it’s pretty hard to go back. Not impossible to try, but generally ‘you can’t unring the bell.’ The process has started. 2) DN time varies tremendously. It could be very short, and like Leo said, it’s usually only years if you don’t follow through properly. That said, not following through properly IS a risk. I’ve been in a DN-ish area for 18 months now, and despite 6 weeks of vipassana retreat time in there, I’ve lacked discipline and slacked in my practice. 3) DN severity varies tremendously. A silver lining is DNs are not always horrible. Some people simply don’t have that much trouble. I’ve been able to function well professionally and decently with family despite the territory. Don’t script yourself into having a brutal time of it, and any difficulty that does come, shoot for equanimity toward it

Hey all, I didn't see this posted already, but Tim Ferriss recently did an interview with Stanislav Grof (pioneer of holotropic breathwork, psychedelic research) that made for very interesting listening: https://tim.blog/2018/11/20/stan-grof/ They cover more than I expected them to, including rethinking psychology / psychiatry, 5-MEO, many other psychedelics, mystical experiences and experiences of synchronicity, and more.

CHICAGO. You definitely have interest here. I’ll also be in LA in late December. Also, what’d you say to the Toronto customs guy to almost get kicked out ? @Leo Gura

He put the book online for free at mctb.org. On the noting/labeling discussion, also probably worth mentioning that the pace and names you’re using can change. You could be going at a fast clip and then a particular pain in your back is really predominant for a long time. So you go deeply into it, and you might note “pain... pressing... pressing... pulling” to pay attention to the particular nature of the pain and how it might change.

@exhale I went to a Montessori school kindergarten through 4th grade. Transitioning wasn’t too bad, and depending on your area Montessori could be better than the alternatives. That said, it has some serious downsides to consider. It encourages lopsided development of skills. For instance, being very quantitative, I put loads more self-directed time into math, at the expense of things like reading, and ended up lagging significantly in reading. The self-directed learning thing, at least in my classes, also didn’t work in practice like it was supposed to in theory. Kids gravitated toward whatever was easiest (for example, the most sought-after part of the classroom was the fish tank, because we could allocate time in our learning to simply observing the fish tank), and often exploited lack of oversight to do what was emotionally easy, aka not learn. I’m just one kid from one Montessori school and you should get more data, but these are things to consider. I’m sure many public schools do a lot worse.