Forestluv

This is a spiritual paradox. . . You have one part down - the part that there is a thing I am missing. I'm not saying that is wrong, it is one side of the coin. I'm saying that there is an awakening that cannot be found in a timeline - it can only be found Here and Now. Consider the below two lines. The horizontal line is a timeline, to the left is the past and to the right is the future. The point the lines cross is what you would call "Here and Now". Yet you are seeing it as a dot. Of course the dot will be "obvious" and "boring" if the mind is consumed within the horizontal timeline that some magical thing exists not Here and Now. Such a mindset will miss the vertical line. Notice how long that vertical line is - it actually continues into infinity. There is a whole new reality to be explored within the line - as much as the horizontal timeline. Yet most people get immersed within thought stories and imaginations of past and future. In terms of knowing and intuition, you know what is Here and Now is Truth infinitely more than you know any thing outside Here and Now to be true. It isn't even a close contest. Yet this is unpalatable to a mind that is seeking. I'm not saying seeking is wrong, it is part of the human experience. I'm saying that there is an awakening that the journey is also the destination. Imagine seeking hours for your glasses to realize they were on your face the whole time. . .

I don't know much about lottery type of intuition. You say when you open a door you know what room will be on the other side, yet don't you know something even more immediate than that? Isn't the knowing that you are now opening the door greater than the knowing of the room on the other side? Isn't there a 100% probability that what is happening Here and Now is happening Here and Now?

@Drake72 What do you know to be true - most of all? It can give you a sense of grounding and intuition of what it feels like to know truth.

In terms of spiral development, get them involved in something like boxing, marital arts or Outward Bound.

It seems a lot of people just associate 5-meo as a spiritual / personal development tool. I've seen people on online forums that are using 5-meo recreationally. I've also seen some people speak of 5-meo as a way to escape life and take away the pain. It has different effects on different people.

There is some nonlinear fluidity, yet there is also some linear structure. For example, what's to stop someone from learning calculus before algebra? . . . Algebra is a necessary foundation upon which to learn calculus. Similarly, one needs to develop binary modes of thinking (blue) before they learn spectral (orange) and relativistic (green/yellow) modes of thinking.

I hadn't thought about the language analogy in the context. In the analogy I'm using it doesn't work. It would be like trying to translate a map of France to a map of Europe. Or translating the sound of a guitar to Chinese symbols.

There is a very easy test of whether the person is centered in Yellow - can they go full-on yellow at will? Can they fluently speak Yellow whenever they want? A being fully centered in Tier 2 can. A being that is 50% green, 40% orange and 10% blue cannot. The easiest way for me to gauge one's level is to simply speak that level and see how fluent they are. If I speak yellow and the other person has difficulty speaking yellow, I know they haven't fully transcended Tier 1. Theoretically, a being centered in Yellow is fluent in all Tier 1 languages. They are fluent in Blue, Orange and Green as well as Yellow. Yet for many Yellow level people, there isn't much juice in the lower stages like Blue and Orange. For example, being restricted to Orange linear logic is boring work to most Yellow level minds. It would be like washing the dishes. Sometimes the dishes need to get washed, yet it's tedious, boring work. If someone said "Hey! Rather than exploring nature, let's wash the dirty dishes!". That's what it's like when an Orange level person says "Hey! Let's debate with linear logic!" During early stages of Yellow development a person begins to naturally recognize and resonate with Yellow level minds. The next stage is when they can get pulled up to Yellow when engaging with a Yellow level person. More advanced stages is when the person can enter and explore Yellow on their own. When used properly, psychedelics can temporarily bump up a Tier 1 mind into Tier 2. Then the person drops back down to Tier 1 and can try to integrate the Tier 2. When used wisely, it can accelerate development for some people - especially those that are stable and mature in upper Orange / Green and are genuinely open and curious.

It’s more complicated and nuanced than that.

The meaninglessness makes it so darn meaningful. When I was a boy I loved to explore creeks. I would spend hours and hours immersed in the exploration - in awe of dragonflies, turtles, frogs. . . and those water striders! . . . Only an adult would ask "What is the meaning of this?". No kid would ask that question. And if during my exploration an adult asked me "What is the meaning of this?", I would have seen them as an intruder. The question makes no sense and it ruins it. When I was a kid I thought adults were crazy. Other kids wanted to grow up, but I didn't want to become like grown ups. They are they one's that programmed ideas of "being someone", "becoming successful", "being productive", "meaning" into me. I continuously need to detox it out of me. When I'm with my young nieces we make up spontaneous nonsensical creations - for no reason. Sometimes their mother tries to play along and asks "What's the point of this?". She means well, yet she ruins it. The point is, there is no point. That's the freedom and magic of Here and Now.

General anesthesia is quite an experience as well.

I'm referring to less developed / immature Orange. This can be expressed as toxic though.

@Rilles Yea, there is a lot of distance between low Orange and high Orange. Sometimes SDers get sloppy with distinctions and group them together.

@Mvrs Have you been under general anesthesia and 5-meo? I've experienced both multiple times. Ime, it's not something that can be figured out or captured rationally. The direct experience is like 1,000X more impactful.

This is a great example of someone (Bill Nye) evolving from Orange to Green. And it's super helpful in pulling up low Orange. Notice how he states that Blue level binary constructs are too simple and becomes grounded in Orange - spectral thinking and physical aspects (such as chromosomes and hormones). He then starts to touch about the relativity and fluidity on gender identity - yet just a touch. It's also clear that he is not at a Yellow level integrating Orange science with Green relativity. These are new discoveries for him - he mentions them as new insights he finds interesting. We can draw a distinction here with someone like Deepak Chopra that has Tier2 metacognition and is looking from 'above'. Stage blue is a binary either male or female. . . Either gay or straight. Stage Orange can see spectrums along a continuum. Yet at Orange, this continuum is generally based more on physical. Orange has a harder time seeing spectrums in immaterial, relative contexts. As well, they may have some resistance since Orange is self-centered and they may interpret relativity as threatening to their self.

In the context of SD, those under stage Orange tend to have little capacity for self introspection and personal responsibility. This doesn't emerge in earnest until the one genuinely values personal development in healthy Orange. The 35% furthest right on the right-wing spectrum will get more immersed into defending their ideology. That ideology is their self identity and that is compounded with a collective identity of MAGA. Not only will they not introspect - they will see in polarized opposites - anything pointing at self introspection is interpreted as extremely threatening. It is a matter of life or death. Similar to "ego death" during a psychedelic trip, there can be intense resistance, anxiety, fear, anger, insecurity etc. If Trump loses, I predict a hyper reactionary response by those 35% on the right wing extreme. I predict the 15% that are center-right might have some capacity for open-ness and introspection with a new change of leadership. Not revolutionary Yellow-level stuff - more like evolving from Blue level polarized categories of extremes toward basic nuanced thinking. In particular, if polarized categories of extremes no longer win, there will be a shift in strategy. I'm starting to see the early signs of this as Fox starts to hedge their bets on the election. They are subtly shifting toward basic nuance as seen by inviting people like Mayor Pete. Most importantly, they are not demonizing him - they are treating him as if he has a view worth at least considering. Corporate right would much rather schmooze with a Mayor Peter than a Bernie or AOC.

@RichnNL It depends on the person. In general, an immature person tripping will have a hard time integrating psychedelic-induced mystical experiences / insights on their own - or with other immature people. If they are working with mature, experienced people (such as an Ayahuasca retreat) or a trained psychologist in psychedelic therapy - their odds of evolving their consciousness goes much higher. There are a lot of variables at play and I see it more as probabilities. The odds of an immature, inexperienced person tripping without guidance / support and having stable, integrated realizations that advances consciousness - would be similar to getting struck by lightening.

@Someone here Without substances, I would say shamanic/holotropic breathing is the most accessible for a quais mystical experience. Ime, other methods take a lot more effort such as long distance running, lucid dream training, extending time in nature or yoga, meditation retreats. With non-psychedelic substances, I've gone relatively far combining cannabis edibles with isolation in nature, sensory deprivation tanks and yin yoga. Ime, part of the 'trick' is dissolving the personal story, the timeline and one's relationship to reality. Without psychedelics, this is really difficult. Most people just can't 'turn it off'. Consider how many self reenforcing inputs you have everyday. Hundreds of them - every minute on social media, one's job, one's responsibilities, one's relationships, self referential thinking. All that stuff doesn't get turned off like a switch with a 30min. meditation session. I'm fortunate in that I've been able to isolate for months at a time. After a few weeks removed, the mind starts 'forgetting' about the story of 'me' and recurring mind patterns. I spent a month in a remote area of Belize and became so immersed in Here and Now, I started forgetting who I was. Someone asked me "what do you do?" and I replied "I ride a bicycle through the village and meet people". It took effort for me to recall "my" story and it felt so distant - like a character in a movie. This detached mindset allowed for all sorts of new insights and 'mystical' experiences. Remember, a 'mystical experience' is just a state of consciousness relative to regular everyday 'non-mystical' experiences. It is the contrast that makes it seem 'mystical'.

My extended post was about direct experience, sensing and empathy. I teach a college course that involves intuition, sensing and energetics - including intuition exercises. As well, part of my laboratory research involves intuition and energetics. You seem to be creating ideas about some character I’m not familiar with. I did not receive a pm from you and I am willing to share my honest opinions with you. Be mindful of making assumptions and projecting intentionality onto others.

Sure. "I'm not aware of what you are describing. Could you elaborate?". The key to meta views is holding points loosely and being aware of the limited nature of each point. Did you read the part about the blind men and the elephant? You seem to be assuming I cannot see your point. As you observed, my mind works at a meta level and I can see various points, including the one you offer. Yea, your point is true from within that point. This has value in that if a teacher cannot connect and articulate understanding to students, the teacher is ineffective. Yet there are also factors and responsibilities on the student end. If a student has mental defenses, is unwilling to take personal responsibility , and doesn’t put in the work - it it’s not fair to simply point at a teacher.

You just said I have deep meta cognition. What do you think is more likely for a metacognitive mind - that it is contracted within one point and missing others? Or that is has a meta view of various points and how they are inter-connected? The latter of course. I can see your point. There are also other points that you are unaware of. If you stay immersed within your point, you won't expand to see other points. Like an electron, you will not reach superpostition if you are attached to a position.

True on meta, yet you must have missed my first post in this thread.

The violence on the left is mostly oriented toward property violence. The violence on the right is mostly oriented toward human violence. In SD terms, Green violence vs Red/Blue violence.

Red/Blue understands Red/Blue. They speak each other's language. Taliban spokesperson: "Trump might be ridiculous for the rest of the world, but he is sane and wise man for the Taliban," https://www.cbsnews.com/news/taliban-on-trump-we-hope-he-will-win-the-election-withdraw-us-troops/

In this situation, and in the context of zooming in and zooming out, yes. Yet there are other situations in which a simply binary frame has value.