Forestluv

Would the map be natural phenomena of quantum physics and the territory be the existential nature of reality?

Death has been knocking on my door the past few months and it's been both frightening and liberating. I've been told to just let go and surrender. Easier said than done for me. I'm safe in my head, yet the times when it *really* comes down to giving up control, I struggle and experience high anxiety, fear and even terror one time. Does the death come all at once for good? Or can there be a process of dying?

Thanks B Clear. It does help to hear from someone who get it. In the past, chatting about "what is reality" over a cup of coffee was intellectually stimulating. Yet now I don't get deep into it with people in my life. Often, I slip into the machine like behavior - and then I thoughts come like no belief is real or my reality is not the real one. Then I feel like I'm in a foreign world in which I have no control and I don't know what is real. It can be frightening. I like what you said about be present for responsibilities, yet taking time for solitude to process.

I've always considered myself a "seeker". I have read many self-help books, participated in lots of "spiritual" retreats, meditation groups etc. I've had countless conversations/debates on politics/philosophy/religion/science. I'm a professor and I'm "safe" in my head. I've had ups and downs, yet never have I felt like I was mentally unstable or insane. Until now. I'm wondering if some people might have had similar experiences here and how to cope with it. A year ago, I started using psychedelics in "my search". I've gone to the ego-death zone several times - each time there was anxiety/fear about letting go and surrendering. Last June in Peru, I did my first and only Ayahuasca retreat. The second ceremony had terrifying moments as my ego struggled to maintain control and steer the experience. My ego realized it would lose and it couldn't stop the experience. I almost went into a full-on panic. Time had no meaning and I thought it would be like this forever. There were also moments where the ego seemed absent. There were lessons about fear and insecurity. Other-wordly visions. The music was angelic. At times, my "self" seemed to float through and there was anxiety again. There were times I did not know what was real and I didn't know if I had gone insane and if I would ever return. There was a recurring thought like: "It's OK, in four hours the Aya will wear off and I'll be back and things will be normal again". It's like "I" was trying to run out the clock . Overall, there were some beautiful moments and lessons, yet I was really shaken up. I thought I could never do that again and I only drank a half cup of Aya at the 3rd and final ceremony. I have not used psychedelics in high doses since. Most of my trips have been light/moderate. There is awe, fascination and curiosity. The high dose trips have had anxiety regarding not being able to tell what is real, that I could lose control or if I had gone insane. I've always been able to talk myself down with "this isn't real, in a few hours everything will be back to normal". A month ago, I was watching Sam Harris videos on how Free-Will is an illusion. There was a moment outside my intellect where I "got it". My ego, my "self", doesn't have control *even when I'm normal and sober*. Something else does. I'm stone sober and the anxiety comes. I'm not in control and I don't know what will happen. I can't make this stop. It felt like the terror of the Aya ceremony. I didn't know what was real and if I had gone insane. Yet unlike the Aya ceremony, it will NEVER stop. There is no "return to normal". I will never be in control. There was actually the thought of "You could stop it by killing yourself". I don't know if that referred to killing the ego or my body. Yet, I felt insane and mentally unstable. Then, I got online and starting discussing free-will. I got back into my head to conceptualize. People told me things like "nothing has changed, you've lived your whole life this way fine". I started feeling better. A couple days ago, I watched Leo's video on Free-will. I liked the part about how life flows better when one recognizes free-will is an illusion. I thought "hey, this is actually a positive". Today my "I am the observer" concept crumbled. For 25 years, this has been a secure concept for me. I was unable to create a new concept and realized there was some type of reality I couldn't describe with words. I realized there is something about awareness, observation and reality in my immediate environment that I don't understand and can't understand. I leave my office and a colleague walks by me in the hallway. What is he? Is he some machine? An alien? Part of me? Can he sense what's going on inside of me? If it really is true that my concepts are not "the truth" he could be anything and anything could happen. I feel anxiety as I don't seem to have my normal framework of reality and control. I try to act "normal" and go to the bathroom for 5minutes to collect myself. Then, I thought it may help to write about it on this forum. I'm feeling more settled down as things are starting to feel "back to normal" again. Yet, I have a foreboding sense - since I know there is "not normal" out there. These are the only two sober panic/anxiety attacks I have had in my life. Both came on non-intellectual realizations that my "self" is an illusion and not in control. For 25 years, self-improvement and actualization has been fun and games. Yet, recently this shits got real and I've had two moments in the last month where I felt insane and terrified - *sober*. Can new levels of consciousness seem like insanity? It has felt somewhat like a psychedelic trip. Part of me is like, "Go with the flow, Let go and surrender. No need to fear finding your true self and what is real". Another part of me is like "DUDE, this is your life we are talking about. You do not want to end up in an insane asylum. Stop this shit". . . I do want to find truth and continue, yet right now it feels intense and I just want to slip back into "normal" and rest for a bit.

If You are a career seeker, go for it. BE that career seeker. Express your truth. Let go of the resistance. Don't let others project their values on you. Why try and live somebody else's life? BE Your Truth. I spent a week with a tribe in a remote area of Peru. Several of them quit successful jobs and moved across the world to live in this village. To sings songs, play musical instruments and drink Ayahuasca together. At first, I was like "wtf, that's messed up." But by week's end it was clear they were living their truth and fulfilled lives. I've never been part of such strong human connections in my life. I wanted to stay longer and will likely return.

That all seems rationale to me. Yet, when the moment arose that what is true is beyond my concepts and understanding, then anything could be true or nothing could be true. Assumptions I've unconciously made were no longer valid. I didn't know if I was in a dreamworld about to be pulked outside for a flight aroynd campus. I didn't know which entity was me - me or my colleague. I didn't know if we were sharing the same mind. I didn't know if the present moment was actually yesterday and I was actually at home grading papers. I'm not comfortable with spontaneous experiences akin to 300ug of lsd. Thank goodness I wasn't teaching a class when this popped up. I don't know if this is common on the actualization path or a warning flag. E.g. That the psychedelics are having a harmful effect and to take a break.

Whoa, that threw me for a loop.

There was a moment where it seemed like the observer was observing reality - this seemed separate entity and makes conceptual sense to me. Yet, there was also a moment of just the reality with no observer. Almost as if it was observing itself? (I'm not sure if I am making up a concept here). When there was an observer, it was passive. Like a person watching a movie. And then there was a person watching a person watching a movie. New levels appeared rapidly and then the concept disappeared from my mind. I don't know if something favors this observing state. When I tried to form a new concept, I got stuck on "there needs to be an observer if something is observed".

Thanks. There is an awareness of the "passive observer" and that's not "it". I now a sense of "active observing", yet the sense is unclear. I have no sense of Devine Will at this point.

Thank you Truth. This gets at "it". Once the "person watching the person watching the person. . . " concept went to infinity and disappeared, there was no movie, no spectator. I held the original "observer" concept for many years and had been thinking about it for the previous10 minutes, then poof - it was gone. I was stunned for a moment and there was nothing. Then I thought the old concept doesn't work anymore and there were thoughts trying to form a new concept: "maybe awareness is just being. But then a rock is just being, does it have awareness? Maybe awareness is. . . ". And like you said, each concept and set of words failed. None of it could describe that moment. I teach cellular biology and much of my mental processing is about forming concepts and teaching students. And my mind wants to develop a new concept it can "rest on" for a while. So what you write means that words and concepts would fail for everyone (not just me). And I won't understand "it" by seeking someone more advanced to explain "it" to me. So are my efforts to understand by conceptualizing with my thoughts and other's thoughts a waste of time? Or could forming a concept which later blows up into nothing lead to "ah-ha" indescribable moments of clarity?

It's even more of a mindblower. The previous night her boyfriend blew his brains out in their basement. (I also checked this out and it was true). Yep, she survived and is still alive today. We are friends on FB. She seems to be doing OK.

smd, for sure it was a delusion. And there were red flags. For example, several times she told me how wonderful I was and that she didn't want to hold me back from finding someone who deserved me. She would say she didn't deserve me and actually encouraged me to leave her a few times. I thought she just had low self-esteem. I couldn't see that she was guilt-ridden. After we broke up, a year went by with no contact. I moved on and was dating someone else. Then, I get a call from her out of the blue. She tells me she has brain cancer and will be undergoing brain surgery the next week. She said she has felt awful for what she did and apologized. She said she didn't know if she would survive the surgery and if there was an afterlife she didn't want to carry this with her. . . I was like - holy shit - there is no need to be concerned about me. Let it go and experience your last week without any guilt and remorse. (She was so manipulative that I actually checked out the story and it was true).

My tendency is to be attracted to the "bad girl". Sometimes I am into her and open up my heart and become vulnerable. This inevitably ends with a broken heart and sorrow. I have also dated the "good girl" that is emotionally available, supportive, wants deeper levels of intimacy and is totally into me. Generally, I am less open and vulnerable here. Perhaps I feel smothered - I'm just not into. It's not just a fear of intimacy - sometimes I feel like I am dating my mom! I also do not want to hurt her and I have let relationships go on for too long to avoid hurting her. During the after glow of one of my psychedelic trips, I was feeling particularly empathetic. In this case to myself (which was odd). I connected with that sweet, vulnerable persona within me and how much it had been hurt by others. And I'm not just talking breakups. I'm talking opening my heart and this sweet vulnerable persona. Experiencing love and connection . . and then one day literally walking in on her with another guy. That part of me hurt so much, yet I put it aside and thought things like "This is about her. She is just acting out based on her genetics and physiology. Don't take it personally. Be compassionate toward her". And that sweet side got put aside and I would just go through the motions with the next gal. During the trip, I really experienced the sorrow - full-on tears. And became compassionate for that part of me. On the other hand, part of me thinks "There is no "me". It is just an illusion. This is all just another story you tell yourself and use to create a false self". Regardless, it remains a story that causes emotions and shapes my behavior.

Pros: 1. Experiencing awe and fascination 2. A sense of liberation and freedom 3. Connection Cons: 1. The fear and struggle of letting go and surrendering. 2. Not knowing how to use personal pronouns. 3. Twenty five years of nut licking

Could "you" also be considered awareness?

" So when I says "I am suffering" you believe you are "I" and therefore you suffer" Who is "you"?

Hmmm, how would one recognize the truth deep within?

Me doesn't want to experience sadness of ego dissolution.

Who is the "I" that doesn't care about about opinions? What is the "me" this "I" has been concerned about? The insights for which the self has a sense of being the decider and acceptor have come easy. Insights that reveal the self is irrelevant have been more difficult. At times, terrifying and liberating.