Forestluv

I second that. I arrived to this forum one year ago as an orange stage college science professor with resistance to evolving up to green. I embraced the multi-cultural aspect of green, yet I was strongly attached to rational thinking within a scientific paradigm. (Deepak Chopra was a whoo-whoo pseudo-scientist in my mind). Perhaps it was Leo's more cerebral approach that was able to get through to me that a relative framework is more advanced than a logical framework. I can now see how ideological I was with science and how much it contracted me. In the last year I dropped the textbook for my neuroscience course. I broadened the course to include psychology, philosophy, awareness and nonduality. We do brief periods of meditation in class, We discuss self-awareness, spiral dynamics and I have students keep contemplation / inquiry journals. I experienced strong fear and resistance to doing this. What would my colleagues think of me? Could I lose my job? Will the students laugh at me and think I'm some kind of joke? Will I lose respect? . . . Yet, I feel so much more grounded and confident - and I'm so much more genuine. It's no longer about me. It's about *us* and the students having awakenings. And the students have embraced it. I no longer need to take attendance. Today, the students asked if I could bring a meditation bell to our class. They come to my office to chat about life and reality. Today I had a long discussion with a student about her paranormal abilities. She told me I was only the third person in her life she felt comfortable sharing it with. It feels so good to be free of the scientific walls around me. I'm excited to evolve into Yellow and make my courses even more holistic and integrated. So @Leo Gura , please know that your message expands beyond this forum and into the minds of some college students.

I agree with you that there can be an underlying sentiment that suffering is "bad" and we want to move beyond it - even in spiritual circles. Perhaps because humans have such a strong desire to escape suffering. Many people enter spirituality and meditation for relief for suffering. What is a spiritual teacher considered suffering as just another happening? How popular would their retreats and satsangs be? People will be attracted to teachers they think can help them move beyond suffering. There is a big difference between suffering you know you can stop and suffering you can't stop. I've pushed shamanic breathing to points of strong discomfort, mild suffering - yet I know I can stop the process anytime. I still have control. I've also experience strong discomfort, mild suffering with psychedelics, yet I can't stop the process. I don't have control. The suffering is a different flavor. Not being able to stop it adds a twist of anxiety/panic that changes the essence of the suffering for me. Perhaps there a many forms of suffering and people try to reduce it to over-simplified explanations. I think teaching spirituality is super challenging. Every mind has a very complex makeup and pattern. Every mind is at a different stage of evolution. Even a highly complex model like spiral dynamics can't capture it all. At times, I find it really hard to meet someone where they are at and express something in a way that is helpful. I've been trying to get in better touch with my intuition to do so.

@Key ElementsA great video taking a peak into another culture. I find it interesting how their culture is expanding beyond their contracted traditional view of polyandry and western culture is expanding beyond a contracted traditional view of monogamy. Lately, I've become fascinated by gender/sexuality as a social construct and new expressions that are emerging.

@Scholar Those are some good questions. My mind wants to simplify the issue. Yet, it's very nuanced and complex as you are finding. You wrote: "But then when I look at the suffering there is something about it that I cannot explain in words that makes it seem like it is bad. I just can't articulate it, but then there is also something that makes it seem like just another experience, that I cannot articulate either." I go through this a lot. Perhaps it's a paradox. For example, sometimes "spirituality" seems so impersonal. There is no "I". The true "me" is one with everything. There is nothing to do than to be in the present moment. It's so amazingly simple. Yet, it also seems so personal. The spiritual journey feels deeply personal. My direct experience feels personal. There is a desire to grow and evolve. What if we stepped away from the term "bad"? And thought of suffering as energy. There are many forms of energy. Suffering seems like a seeking energy. An energetic yearning for a different present moment. Perhaps the seeking energy can be mild or it can be very strong. When I see an animal experiencing pain, they don't seem to have the same type of seeking energy as humans. They seem to be experiencing the pain in the present moment and may avoid the source of the pain. Yet, they don't seem to have the same type of yearning and struggling as humans. The sense of powerless and loss of control. The thinking about how things could be better if only such-and-such happens. Have you listened to awakened spiritual teachers on suffering? That might shed some insight. I've never done a solo retreat. Yet, boredom over extended periods and not being able to leave would likely lead to a degree of suffering for me. Yet, it probably wouldn't cause any permanent harm.

@Scholar I think I misinterpreted the sentiment of your earlier posts. Have you considered doing a solo retreat to contemplate these matters? Also, perhaps consider volunteering in an environment with suffering. I volunteered in a psychiatric unit counseling patients for several years which gave me insight into the nature of suffering.

Here is a beautiful example of a woman describing her evolution from an orange-level feminist to healthy green. There are many video examples of people within stages, yet very few videos of someone who has awareness of their evolution process and is able to describe it so eloquently.

It's a different meditative state. I think a good meditation foundation is key. I've gone with other people and they seem to get pre-occupied with what''s "supposed to happen". Or that they are not doing something right. I've had on-and-off insomnia most of my life. Years ago, I dated a master sleeper. This gal could fall asleep virtually anywhere. I asked her what her trick was. She looked at me a bit puzzled and said "You just let go and let it happen". That's how to do it in the flotation tank, IME.

I've had about 70 trips on about 7 different psychedelics. With dosages ranging from microdoses to full-on insanity and ego death. Things I consider are: dosage, mindset and setting. You only asked about setting. I would encourage you to also seriously consider dosage and mindset. You could create a wonderful setting, yet if your dosage and mindset is off - you could be in for a rough ride. For setting, I started off in my house. I've found familiarity with the setting can relax the mind and body. I would suggest having several activity options set up. Sometimes during the comeup and peak, things can get quite uncomfortable. I've found it's nice to have options. I may set up a meditation space - perhaps with candles and soft music. In another room, I may have a journal set up to write. I may have a video ready to watch. Also, a music playlist ready to go. Let's say I'm peaking in the meditation room and lots of anxiety arises. I can't sit with it and it's turning into panic. If I have no other options, I may go into the panic zone. Yet, I can get up and try to write some insights. Not working? Turn on some music. "Ahhh, this feels better. I've never experienced music like this. The empathy is amazing!! I feel at one with the singer. I feel the depth of her emotion. I am her emotion. Look at those trees. I am one. There is no I. Only one. . . ". Another thing I recommend is to get a benzo or etizolam to kill the trip if necessary. I've never had to use it. I've always walked through any discomfort. Yet I cannot tell you how much it can settle a person down knowing they can kill the trip at any time. As a beginner, it allowed me to go much deeper without panic.

My big breakthrough on this was during a sensory deprivation float. Nearly all sensory input was removed. Thoughts and feelings dissolved. There was only the sensation of a heartbeat. I was in a womb with no identity and realized everything after that point was fiction.

@Omario Here is one (of many) ways to start: Sit on a cushion. Be aware of your breath. As a thought arises, acknowledge it as "thought" and return to the breath. As a feeling arises, label it as "feeling" and return to the breath. Do this over and over again. Each time, there is awareness saying "I see you ego". Eventually, you will get a sense of being an observer to your thoughts and feelings. You will sense *space* between a deeper you and the thoughts/feelings. Do it consistently everyday. Don't let up. Be a hardass on the ego. Every thought, Every feeling. Acknowledge it and return to the breath. This observer - object stage was my first along the path. The reason I suggest bringing attention to the breath is that "just being aware" is too big of a jump for a conditioned mind that is new to meditation. Following the breath provides grounding and can help relax the mind. I've found relaxing the mind is crucial for self actualization. They key to this is simply to become aware and develop space from the ego. For me, the next stage was let gain awareness of my attachment and identification to thoughts and feelings. At first, this came from a combination of meditation, readings, retreats and discussions.

@Samra Similar to your friend, during my Aya ceremonies I had strong CEVs yet virtually no OEVs. During two of three ceremonies, I experienced nonduality and a collective empathy with the group. I found that lying down intensifies the experience. As well, if my mind is still in a rational/logical mindset I would drink a second serving.

Hmm, some trips on higher doses into the ego death range it seems beliefs dissolve and language is bizarre. Sometimes it's like the mind is working in strange images or symbols. Time is distorted, sound becomes form, multiple realities exist simultaneously, objects merge and become formless etc. The mind feels more like a schizophrenic mind than my sober mind. From your previous post, it seems that the bizarre images and symbols seem extraordinary, yet arise from the underlying framework of my mind. To me, the subjective experience feels so beyond the natural workings of my mind. Sometimes it doesn't seem to be related at all to any of my conditioning in life regarding beliefs on religion, science etc.

Cults aren’t always extreme. There are a lot of nuances to cults. Some mainstream groups / organizations have subtle forms of cultish ideology.

During psychedelic trips, is it the same mind as when sober?

Sometimes I observe a candle during meditation. It helps relax my mind.

@kieranperez That is some awesome introspection that took considerable work. Nice job. I would just add: as we travel along our paths to be aware that desires for comfort and security go very deep into the mind-body. At times, they rise to #1 and #2 on the human value list - whether we are aware of it or not.

@BornToBe 4-Aco-dmt is synthetic psychedelic very similar to the “magic mushroom” molecules psilocybin and psilocin.

It depends on the person and the situation in a given moment. Love appears and has many forms of expression. There are an infinite number of possibilities. I don't feel seeking energy to define love or create borders around love. That feels like a contraction to me. For me it's about expansion. Yet, I still have just a tiny sliver of knowledge and experience regarding the broad, magnificent scope of love.

@Key Elements There are lots of different perspectives. For me, fully immersing myself and experiencing that form of love is beyond any type of observation or conceptualization. It's like describing an apple, observing someone eating an apple, having conversations about the experience of eating an apple and the direct experience of actually eating an apple. As well, an intellectual understanding of tribal peruvian customs was different than my direct experience within a peruvian tribe. And I still lack the direct experience of actually being a peruvian within a tribe. Various understandings are great, yet IME direct experience is distinct. Also, I have no experience about polygamy or sexual relationships within family members. I'm talking about open relationships with people that are unrelated. You seem to say you have an understanding of poly, yet what you describe is very different than what I experienced.

@Key Elements Practical expressions of love is one form of love that I have experienced. That form of love is within a much larger scope of love for me. In my experience an intellectual understanding is very different than direct experience understanding. They go hand-in-hand for me. I've explored various ideas and concepts of love intellectually and I have experienced deep love within both monogamous relationships and a poly relationship. The poly experience was distinct from anything I have experienced in monogamy and beyond anything I could have imagined. It expanded my sphere of love. For me, it isn't binary. It isn't about being 100% oriented toward monogamy or 100% oriented toward poly. I've experienced a complex mixture of both.

Be aware of attachments to beliefs on psychedelics as either good or bad. Psychedelics are just one tool. Use a diversity of tools to expand your consciousness. For me, psychedelics have been both a powerful tool and a major distraction.

@Key Elements I have experienced various flavors of love. Various energies and connections. There isn't a correct form of love for me. For me, defining love feels contracted. Rather, I feel an inner calling to expand my capacity to love. From the silence, love appears. There are flavors I love I have not experienced. I don't have direct experience raising children or with polygamy. I don't have experience loving my own child or the practical aspects of raising children. I have been in relationships with several woman who have children and have observed and felt empathy, yet not direct experience. I've participated in an open relationship and with people oriented toward polyamory (but not polygamy). I still have poly friends, yet I found it's not my natural orientation. At least, not in this present moment.

Yes, it's part of the evolution of consciousness in humans. IME, the first stage is becoming aware of the conditioned pattern that I am attached to. The second stage is observing the thoughts and feelings without identification or attachment. When a thought arises during meditation, simply think "vanity thought", observe it and let it go. When a feeling arises that yearns to be beautiful or scared to be ugly, simply think "vanity feeling", observe it and let it go. This isn't easy to do. The mind-body seeks to engage with thoughts it is attached to. It seeks to identify with the thought/feeling. This labeling calls out your ego: "I can see you ego. That is a vanity thought". The one who observes the thoughts / feelings is a step closer to your true nature. After doing this over and over, you will likely start to sense *space* between the truer you (the observer) and the thoughts/feelings (the false self). The third stage: even after observing the thoughts/feelings and creating space from attachment, I'm not out of the woods yet. Subconscious impulses continue to appear. Well. . . I don't want to be continuously labeling the thoughts/feelings and letting go the rest of my life. I'd rather get to the root of the subconscious impulses so I can evolve beyond it. That's where the contemplation Leo described above comes in. A personal example: growing up, I was told over and over again that I had intellectual "gifts", yet I was failing because I wouldn't apply myself. This became on ongoing theme with my parents and teachers. And to make it even more intense, my parents and teachers would team up in meetings with me and let me know how disappointed they were with me. This became an unconscious identity I adopted as I dropped out of four different Universities. And not just academics, pretty much any project I started. Then I flipped to the other extreme and became an over-achiever. I collected degrees, awards and scholarships as I climbed the academic ladder. I experienced very strong seeking toward self validation/approval and fear of anyone being disappointed in me (especially authority figures such as my father and academic advisors). I strongly identified with being a logical scientist. I was ideological about it. I needed to be right. I viewed everything through a lens of logic. I wanted to show others how irrational they were (especially regarding politics and religion). My relationships were mostly serious, intense and cerebral. I had little ability to see other perspectives, relativity and that I was part of a larger whole. After a lot of introspection work, I became aware of my pattern and how it was limiting me from evolving (up toward green and yellow). I became aware of my hyper analytical, logical thought patterns during meditation. I became aware that this was conditioned from my childhood and my academic environment. I made progress, yet the pattern kept arising from my subconscious and it was holding me back. Then I took a closer look. Rather than focus on the external conditioning, I asked myself the what was the deeper source? I went on a 10 day retreat that focused on observing our own personal belief systems. What is it about *me* that is seeking to be right? That is seeking to convince others to agree with me? What if I became stupid? What if I discover my dearly-held beliefs are wrong? What if I found out I don't know what I'm talking about? What would life look like? . . I discovered that I had a *deep* sense of not being good enough. And not some type of psycho babble thinking. I experienced it to my core. Into the depth of my personal insecurity, of feeling unworthy and unloved. It was really uncomfortable and I left the retreat after four days. I felt a calling to continue and returned to the retreat two days later. By sitting with and experiencing the insecurity, I began to see all the ways I subconsciously avoid this space. I saw how my desire to "be right" was a desire to feel in control and that I didn't want to feel powerless and ungrounded. Then, I experienced a oneness with everyone in the retreat and all of humanity. That *everyone* experiences the same insecurity deep down. The everyone behaves in ways to avoid feeling insecure. I felt deep empathy and understanding of everyone - even people I had judged and condemned. They were just like me. Since then, the subconscious impulses to prove myself as knowledgeable has significantly decreased. My judgement of others has decreased. I've expanded my sphere of friends. Students used to be afraid to visit my office. Now we chill, listen to music and chat about life, science, humanities, and even paranormal phenomena, My mind-body is much more relaxed. There is a sense of freedom now. It's beautiful.

I just decided to 5-meo this weekend. I’m feeling close to experiencing what Leo is writing about.

@GafaRassaDaba You wrote a powerful report. My second Aya ceremony had a different theme than yours, yet it was also the most terrifying experience of my life. It’s been over a year since that ceremony and your report gave me chills.