Forestluv

Fun stuff, yet his "nothing" still has stuff in it. How can there be an observer in "nothing"? There is no observer and there is nothing to be observed. How can truth exist in "nothing"? There is nothing to be true about. Nothing is no thing. Nothing. No emptiness, no void, no observer, no nothing. There isn't even nothing in nothing!! Humans just can't resist putting something in nothing. Some idea of stillness, emptiness, peace, infinity, beauty etc. There are NO distinctions in nothingness.

The concepts the two of us are offering IS concepts the two of us are offering. The challenge isn't the concept. The challenge is viewing a concept as a concept. The human mind loves to think X is Y. That's all we are doing here. You have one way of saying X is Y and I have another way of saying X is Y. The content of X and Y is irrelevant. How can X be Y? X IS X and Y IS Y. A concept of nonduality IS a concept of nonduality. A sunset IS a sunset. A thought about the meaning of life IS a thought about the meaning of life. The human mind fixates on what is on the left and right side of IS. Yet, the key part is the IS. With time, that which is on the left and right side of IS dissolves and there is only IS.

@Leo Gura To me, it seems like the underlying motivation is personal health and vanity. I don't get a sense that their true motivation is wellness for all. For example, the organizer uses the term "autonomy" several times - which I would generally consider a keyword for orange. A green could buy a Prius with the intent of reducing their carbon footprint for the wellness of their community. An orange could buy a Prius with the intent to look good and save some money on gas.

@Devil That is some fun stuff. I love conceptualizing! It's so creative. It feels so good. Just don't let yourself be tricked into thinking it's actually true and identifying with it.

@SOUL I agree that what you wrote is within nonduality. And the opposite of what you wrote is within nonduality. And the opposite of what I'm writing is within nonduality. I've got no horse in the race.

A beautiful recontextualization. The writers are sooo creative. The expressions, the music. . . wonderful.

@Etherial Cat Nice!! I love examples of a stage that have "a twist".

Yep!!

@Cortex Yepper!!!

@Devil I understand your story. It's one of an infinite number of games we could create. Have fun playing it. Just be aware if you are getting contracted into one game. There are many many other games out there. Why limit yourself to one?

I'm highlighting that nonduality includes what you wrote, the opposite of what you wrote and every possible variation of what you wrote. Don't get attached to any concept of nonduality.

What is your direct experience? Do you feel energy drained after masturbation? Or do you feel invigorated? Or the same energy level?

Just sit and be aware of thoughts that arise and disappear. No judgement, no identification. One meditation I used to do is "Thoughts are logs". I would imagine myself on the side of a river observing thoughts as they float down the river. No judgement or identification. Just let them float. I found a lot of nuances in the "observer + object" stage. Where is the source of these logs? Where are they coming from. Who is this observer watching the logs? . . . Sometimes a thought goes by without attachment, sometimes with attachment. What is the difference between these two? Exactly when does the mind become attached to a thought? Where does the attachment come from? Can there be different flavors of attachment? Are other feelings associated with attachment? Is attachment a continuum from weak attachment to strong attachment? Where does my brain go once it attaches to a thought? . . . Imagine you are a scientist. Observe like your mind-body is under a microscope. People assume they know what attachment is. One could spend years investigating attachment. Same goes for identification with thoughts and feelings.

I like the old saying "Uncover, discover and discard". I like learning about the personality - yet if I start a new mantra about how some new insight is tormenting me, I will get a lot more of it. Perhaps detach and de-identify and contemplate how symbolic frameworks could cause stress to a person. I would also consider how symbolic frameworks can also enrich the human experience.

@Esoteric During my development, the first *major* stage I reached was the "observer + object" stage. Before this stage, I was my thoughts and feelings. Then one day, I began observing thoughts and had a direct experience that "I am not the thought". Rupert Spira refers to this as "enlightened duality". I spent about 20 years in the "observer + object" stage. There are many deep and beautiful teachings at this stage. Many practitioners spend the rest of their spiritual journey exploring this stage. There is another stage in which the observer is no longer a separate entity. IME, this has been much more challenging than the "observer + object" stage. Even a novice meditator can reach this stage after a couple months of meditation.

I'd say attachment and identification are the biggest obstacles.

Neuroscientists know less than 0.0000001% about the model of a DMN they created. I'd be careful with making conclusions about something we know so little about.

I'd be careful about giving *meaning* to insights. It looks like you are gaining some insight into symbols, relativity and nonduality. Yet, it seems like your mind is adding a lot of extra stuff: "Symbols are there to hide the truly miraculous nature of things, and in doing so, hell within the mind is created since we divorce ourselves from what is." "Hellish" is just one interpretation. I find what you described to be sooo fascinating. I want learn more and more about it!! It's exciting!!

@Devil Nope. This is one storyline among an infinite number of storylines. I can engage in this story or not. Right now, there are other storylines that are more interesting to me. As I said, the story is not right or wrong. It's just a story. Just be mindful of getting attached to the story as if it were actually true. @Outer I could be either a player or NPC in this storyline. You can make up ANY story you want. People get sooo attached to their stories. . .

Be careful drawing conclusions from neuroscience. We are still in it's infancy. For example, the field of Quantum Neuroscience has not even arose yet. There are inputs we don't even know exist yet. It's like we've read three pages of a 10,000 page manual.

Cool story, bro. This is one story of an infinite number of stories to make sense of reality. Fun stuff. Just don't fall into the trap of believing it's actually true. . .

How is dualism a misperception? It is a perception that arises. How can anything that arises be a "mis"? It's like looking at one of those pictures that can be perceived as a vase or as two faces. Which is a "misperception"? On a larger scale, there are an infinite number of perceptions. Humans, bats, trees, ants, moles, birds etc - all perceive reality differently. I wouldn't consider any perception as a "misperception".

Trip Report: 5-meo-dmt 28mg. A lesson in nothing. A couple minutes in, resistance thoughts started to arise such as "Why am I doing this again? I've been using drugs to much lately, it's interfering with my life. It's going to consume my life. These altered realities are going to take over and change me. I'm likely to lose my job". The next minute the 5-meo got stronger and I was still trying to hang on. I started losing sense of meaning - of what is good and bad, of what is healthy and unhealthy. Jumping out a window was no different than taking a pee. Then, panic started seeping in and I struggled. Looking back, it was a struggle to stay sane. A thought went by that I was to experience the horror of 5-meo like I had read online. The trip took a different turn, yet I now know the horror of struggling to maintain sanity with 5-meo. I'm not sure if I was able to let go or if the 5-meo overpowered me. Yet the tide turned from the horror zone. It was as if white cream was poured into black coffee. At first, the white cream and black coffee are separate. As one starts to stir, there are some white streaks visible within the coffee and the overall color of the coffee starts to turn tan. With more stirring, the cream are coffee are completely mixed as one. Similarly, I started off with dualistic thoughts and concepts. I am a person, there is a chair, meditation is part of spiritual practice, and on and on. As the mixing started, words and ideas stopped making sense. Every word, thought, image, concepts etc. started to get stirred together with all other thoughts, images, concepts and started disappearing. Soon, English didn't make sense. A chair didn't make sense. A word didn't make sense. Seeing a tree didn't make sense. Hearing a lawnmower didn't make sense. They are started swirling together. Distinctions started disappearing. It felt like I was going insane and I tried to hold on to sanity. Yet, distinctions rapidly began disappearing. The ideas of sanity and insanity swirled away. Ideas of struggle or no struggle swirled away. Soon, ALL distinctions swirled away and was mixed together. It was like my brain hard drive got wiped clean. This was NOT like the stillness or emptiness I have experienced during meditation. When all distinctions were mixed together, there was nothing. The concept of nothingness has been difficult for my mind to comprehend. The idea of "one everything" is easier for my mind to hold. I've heard various teachers speak about "nothingness" in different ways. Some say "it's not really like the type of nothing most people imagine". Well, now I have direct experience with nothingness. When all distinctions disappeared there was nothing. And I mean NOTHING. I did not see anything in my field of view. I did not hear, feel or smell anything. There were no thoughts. There was no me. There was no body, United States, foreign countries, fruit, feminism, gender, people, objects. Nothing. There was no nothing, no emptiness, no stillness, no infinity, no void. Nothing. I did not see empty black or white. I did not see emptiness or transparent. There was no other world. Nothing. At about 12min., there was the first appearance of a something. The first slight distinction of something different than a something else. It was very subtle, kinda hazy and amorphous. Then an amazing process began. Gradually, more distinctions began to appear. Shapes started to arise. Sounds started to arise. At first, with low resolution - then with more resolution. Ideas started to appear. Then a sense that there was awareness that was aware of what was arising. Then physical sensations and an idea there is a body. Then an idea of a me. Then images of objects in my living room - the couch and ceiling. Then the idea that I was lying in my living room floor. It was like actually watching a lifetime of programming take place. Totally fascinating. I've had nondual experiences, yet there was always some type of consciousness/awareness present. Here, there was no consciousness/awareness. There was nothing to be aware of. There was no observer. It was the appearance of a first something when awareness arose to be aware of it. What could come prior to awareness has been inconceivable to me. I often hear teachers speak of awareness/consciousness - yet rarely do they speak prior to awareness/consciousness. Looking back, the nothingness is so simple. You can't get any simpler. Yet, my mind just can make sense of it. There is a sense of knowing it without being able to fully describe or understand it.

Can the HCL form be vaped? If so, do you know the optimal temp?

@kev014 That's a super complex question. A few studies have a shown life-long mediators have significantly more cortical thickness than non-meditators in specific brain regions. As well, non-meditators that went on an 8 week meditation program showed increased cortical thickness in key areas, while the control group did not. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361002/