Forestluv

Yea. It was the one of the most bizarre realities I've ever experienced. I layed on the ground and I couldn't see, feel, hear, smell anything. No thoughts. There were no distinctions. Nothing. I remember seeing something arise from nothing. An amorphous, poorly defined something. There was awareness that was aware of it. Yet, what was there before there was a thing? It wasn't like awareness was sitting around being aware waiting for something to appear. I've never conceived of anything prior to awareness. I still don't know how to integrate it into such a limited mind-body. It doesn't make sense to me, yet there is a knowing of something I can't describe.

Genetics, molecular bio, developmental bio and neuroscience. I rarely write about science on this forum as I want to develop higher skills into yellow and turquoise zones. I used to have the mentality of a hard core scientist. Now that I'm part mystical, I think I'm viewed as a nutty professor around here. Last week I was chatting with a few freshman students about paranormal phenomena. One student seemed to have a hard time sizing me up and asked if I was a "real" scientist. He immediately apologized and tried to clarify what he meant. I laughed and told him it was the highest compliment I've received all week

One of my teachers does a live stream on youtube and takes questions/comments on skype. It's super cool.

Back when I was passing through Orange-ville, I watched the Atheist Experience with delight. I loved how the hosts used logic and reason to expose the irrationality of blue callers. To be honest, I don't think I could debate well against Matt. If it was a UFC cage fight, he would continually want to take me down and grind it out on the mat. I would use a lot of relative and absolute thinking and he would keep re-framing things in terms of logic and reason. He is very skilled at that and has some high level reasoning abilities. As well, I value direct experience which he would largely dismiss as irrational feelings. These days, I use the term God similarly as consciousness, being, presence. I don't think in terms of an anthropomorphic god. So, some people would consider me an atheist. Yet, I would be very far away from an atheist regarding the nature of intelligence, creation, reality and self.

@SOUL Yep. It's so hard to describe with dualistic terms. I get what you are saying - I just use different words to try to explain the same thing. For me, my nondual experiences have been from the "everything" perspective. All things lose their distinctions and everything is one. Yet there was still awareness present. Recently, I've had an experience from the "nothing" perspective. All things lost their distinctions and disappeared. There was nothing. Not even awareness (there was nothing to be aware of). Then, the first "thing" arose from the nothingness and awareness arose with it. I couldn't conceive of something prior to awareness. It was mindblowing.

@Roman Edouard I'm a professors and I see what you are talking about everyday. Students distracted on the cell phones - detached from their environment, detached from each other. A calculus professor spending an hour explaining a highly complex math problem they find elegant and exciting - yet has absolutely no practical relevance to the student's lives. A developmental biologist making his students memorize dozens of structures during chick development - which all the students will forget an hour after the exam and never use the rest of their lives. However, there are also school environments conducive to learning meaningful things. In my classes, students don't use cell phones. We cover topics like the role of microflora in brain development and function, unconscious biases, anxiety, depression, the various effects of recreational and prescription drugs on the mind, how viral STDs are transmitted and cause their effects. . . stuff that matters in their lives.

I did shrooms decades ago when I was a young lad. I know growing shrooms is easy, yet I suck at growing anything and I would probably screw it up. I did a lot of reading on 4-Aco-dmt and IMO it's close enough to shrooms that I put them in the same category (I know others will disagree. . . ). It's much easier for me to get high quality 4-Aco-dmt than grow shrooms.

I'm cool with giving stuff meaning in a relative context. Yet, if he wants to go to "nothing", that means no distinctions. He says truth is within the nothing. The nothing is bittersweet. There is contentment within the nothing. No, there is nothing in the nothing. Those are things that can arise within the nothing. Imagine no distinctions. What is there without distinctions?

@zoey101 I love me some abstract thinking Another idea along those lines. . . Each person is like their own type of plant. To flourish each plant has it's own needs. Some plants need lots of shade. Other plants need lots of sun. Some plants need lots of water, others little water. Some plants thrive in clay soil, while other plants whither in clay soil.

@Devil I am all of them and none of them!!! Dude, you are trapped in a concept. It doesn't matter what the concept is. You could be arguing about how life is explained by the Tao te ching, or Spiral Dynamics, game theory, neuroscience , Winnie the Poo, Jesus, psychedelics, alien races, Yoga or Detroit Becomes Human. There are countless of stories and games about life. They are lots of fun. Yet, at the end of the day - it's just a theory. Don't get trapped in any one game. It's super easy to get trapped in one way of thinking.

Fun stuff, yet his "nothing" still has stuff in it. How can there be an observer in "nothing"? There is no observer and there is nothing to be observed. How can truth exist in "nothing"? There is nothing to be true about. Nothing is no thing. Nothing. No emptiness, no void, no observer, no nothing. There isn't even nothing in nothing!! Humans just can't resist putting something in nothing. Some idea of stillness, emptiness, peace, infinity, beauty etc. There are NO distinctions in nothingness.

The concepts the two of us are offering IS concepts the two of us are offering. The challenge isn't the concept. The challenge is viewing a concept as a concept. The human mind loves to think X is Y. That's all we are doing here. You have one way of saying X is Y and I have another way of saying X is Y. The content of X and Y is irrelevant. How can X be Y? X IS X and Y IS Y. A concept of nonduality IS a concept of nonduality. A sunset IS a sunset. A thought about the meaning of life IS a thought about the meaning of life. The human mind fixates on what is on the left and right side of IS. Yet, the key part is the IS. With time, that which is on the left and right side of IS dissolves and there is only IS.

@Leo Gura To me, it seems like the underlying motivation is personal health and vanity. I don't get a sense that their true motivation is wellness for all. For example, the organizer uses the term "autonomy" several times - which I would generally consider a keyword for orange. A green could buy a Prius with the intent of reducing their carbon footprint for the wellness of their community. An orange could buy a Prius with the intent to look good and save some money on gas.

@Devil That is some fun stuff. I love conceptualizing! It's so creative. It feels so good. Just don't let yourself be tricked into thinking it's actually true and identifying with it.

@SOUL I agree that what you wrote is within nonduality. And the opposite of what you wrote is within nonduality. And the opposite of what I'm writing is within nonduality. I've got no horse in the race.

A beautiful recontextualization. The writers are sooo creative. The expressions, the music. . . wonderful.

@Etherial Cat Nice!! I love examples of a stage that have "a twist".

Yep!!

@Cortex Yepper!!!

@Devil I understand your story. It's one of an infinite number of games we could create. Have fun playing it. Just be aware if you are getting contracted into one game. There are many many other games out there. Why limit yourself to one?

I'm highlighting that nonduality includes what you wrote, the opposite of what you wrote and every possible variation of what you wrote. Don't get attached to any concept of nonduality.

What is your direct experience? Do you feel energy drained after masturbation? Or do you feel invigorated? Or the same energy level?

Just sit and be aware of thoughts that arise and disappear. No judgement, no identification. One meditation I used to do is "Thoughts are logs". I would imagine myself on the side of a river observing thoughts as they float down the river. No judgement or identification. Just let them float. I found a lot of nuances in the "observer + object" stage. Where is the source of these logs? Where are they coming from. Who is this observer watching the logs? . . . Sometimes a thought goes by without attachment, sometimes with attachment. What is the difference between these two? Exactly when does the mind become attached to a thought? Where does the attachment come from? Can there be different flavors of attachment? Are other feelings associated with attachment? Is attachment a continuum from weak attachment to strong attachment? Where does my brain go once it attaches to a thought? . . . Imagine you are a scientist. Observe like your mind-body is under a microscope. People assume they know what attachment is. One could spend years investigating attachment. Same goes for identification with thoughts and feelings.

I like the old saying "Uncover, discover and discard". I like learning about the personality - yet if I start a new mantra about how some new insight is tormenting me, I will get a lot more of it. Perhaps detach and de-identify and contemplate how symbolic frameworks could cause stress to a person. I would also consider how symbolic frameworks can also enrich the human experience.

@Esoteric During my development, the first *major* stage I reached was the "observer + object" stage. Before this stage, I was my thoughts and feelings. Then one day, I began observing thoughts and had a direct experience that "I am not the thought". Rupert Spira refers to this as "enlightened duality". I spent about 20 years in the "observer + object" stage. There are many deep and beautiful teachings at this stage. Many practitioners spend the rest of their spiritual journey exploring this stage. There is another stage in which the observer is no longer a separate entity. IME, this has been much more challenging than the "observer + object" stage. Even a novice meditator can reach this stage after a couple months of meditation.