Forestluv

I agree. This thread is evolving toward more nuance and depth. CreamCat raised a couple ideas that originally made me uncomfortable - yet I want to contemplate some more. I have to get to work now, but I will revisit this thread later.

@CreamCat Your views are more nuanced and complex than I originally thought. I see so many surface-level Orange vs Green positions that it's easy to peg someone as Orange too quickly. As well, I'm still centered in Green and working on my transition to Yellow - my Green can still get triggered when it appears that a group is being oppressed or marginalized. I don't think your views are straight-up Orange, Green, Yellow etc. I think you've got an interesting mixture going. Some people, like Sam Harris, have interesting mixtures and integrations. I have to get to work now and I'd like some time to contemplate a couple ideas that you raised. I'd like to revisit this discussion later.

@CreamCat Again, I think you are minimizing the extent of harm caused when adults have sex with children. I think you are exaggerating rare cases. As well, I think you are placing too much emphasis on personal freedom over social welfare. Regarding porn. If 2D child porn was shown to alleviate the suffering of pedophiles AND reduce the amount of sexual child abuse - a healthy green would support it because it would increase overall social wellness.

I think you are minimizing the harm of sexual abuse to children. If you want to elevate from Orange-level personal freedom up to Green level empathy and compassion, I would recommend volunteering in a facility that helps abused children and women. IMO, I don’t think reading and debating would be sufficient for you. You seem to have some major Orange level blocks and would need to immerse yourself with direct experience to break through.

@CreamCat You are introducing the issue of age of consent. A main reason that age of consent is established is because the vast majority of cases it’s abusive. Sure, you can cherry pick a case. Yet, the vast majority of cases that involve sex with an 11 year old are abusive.

This would be a Red position. An adult having sex with a child is one of the worst traumas a child can experience. It is extremely harmful and can damage the individual for life. What you are saying is akin to: “I think adults should have the freedom to torture children, as long as they don’t abuse them. For these adults, torturing children is their natural orientation and they should be free to do so” A green recognizes there should be limits to personal freedom - when it harms other individuals and society

You are conflating two different issues. In this case it can cause harm to an oppressed group. This technique has been used to oppress members of the LGBT groups for decades. Your question is equivalent to asking: If we allow you to have sex with women, shouldn’t we allow pedofiles to have sex with children? This question is absurd to you because you see heterosexual behavior as normal/natural and pedophilia as deviant. Linking pedophilia to LGBT is no different than linking pedophilia to your heterosexualty. The first step to advancing upward into green is to acknowledge that LGBT is a sexual / gender orientation that is as normal /natural as your male heterosexual orientation. It’s diffucult to do for stage Orange because it involves empathy and cultural relativism. If you seriously want to elevate your consciousness, get involved with the LGBT community and make human connections. Regarding your second point: don’t conflate harmful criminal unethical behavior (pedophilia) with consensual ethical behavior. To advance to green, you will need to distinguish between the two. Green is not advocating for the inclusion of pedophilia into LGBT. This belief is locking you in Orange. Rather, it’s a different issue. Step outside LGBT and clear your mind. . . With pedophilia, a Green would have compassion for both the child victim and the pedophile. It’s easy for Orange to understand compassion for the child victim. So, let’s consider the pedophile. The vast majority of pedophiles were themselves abused as children. So we have compassion for them at this point. Abused children, especially sexually abused, often suffer into adulthood. They can be so damaged that hurt other people. A Green acknowledges the pain and suffering of both the child and adult. A question for Orange would be: at what point does your compassion for a sexually abused child end? On their 18th birthday? Yet their pain and suffering continues into adulthood. As well, neuroscience is revealing that the methylation patterns that regulate gene expression in the brain is altered after children are sexually abused. These abnormal gene expression patterns continue into adulthood. If you want to get a better understanding of the cycle of abuse, pain and suffering of everyone involved - watch the mivie Little Children” Next, compassion for those that are suffering does not mean supporting abusive behavior. A Green dies not advocate for child abuse. A Green would support removing a pedophile from society because there is a high risk the person may abuse children again. A Green would want a pedophile to be put in a facilty to receive treatment. This person should be treated until it is determined their risk factor is no higher than the general population. Unfortunately, a pedophilia mindset is extremely hard to treat.

That’s a nice mix. I love it when my easy-going green side chills out my serious analytic Orange side.

I love it when @Emerald busts out her meta Yellow pen. So awesome ?? You are helping me progress through green into yellow ?

@bejapuskas Consider two Orange-centered individuals. They each value personal achievement, autonomy, ambition. They are both very rational and think about the most efficient ways to reach their personal goals. What may happen over time? Well, there isn't much human connection between them for starters. Also, they are not working as a team. There is no "we". It is "my needs and goals" and "your needs and goals". There may be arguments over whose personal goals get preference. When I entered Green and dated Orange women, there was a very different dynamic. When tension arose, my I valued harmony and talking things out. I wanted us to talk things out and decide together what was best for "us" for our relationship. I valued expressing feelings. I believed that expressing vulnerability coupled with mutual support would lead to deeper connection and love. Well, that didn't go over too well with my Orange-centered girlfriend. She was so focused on our independent needs and desires. She saw things in terms of competition. She wanted to debate and win. If she got *her* way, that meant she won. Over time, she apparently got bored of "winning" and started asking why I wouldn't rise up and take control "like a man". She started mentioning that she might be better off with an alpha male. Tears to her where a sign of weakness. One time in a restaurant, I got sentimental and a bit teary-eyed (not bawling or crying - just sentimental with a teary eye). She picked up on it and almost panicked - she looked around the restaurant and pleaded to me not to cry in public. Moral of the story: I won't date another Orange-centered person again. As well, Green with Green hasn't been a cup of tea either. I dated a Green woman with Green values, yet she was still stuck in Orange regarding male mates. It was an odd thing. She felt so strongly about social equality. She did a lot of social work for the poor, minorities and the homeless. She was a big proponent of gender equality in the workforce and equal pay. She was a community activist and gave talks to promote equality. Well equality for everyone except us apparently. When it came to us, she had a traditional gender role mindset that she had been conditioned with. She wanted me to be the authoritarian in the relationship. She wanted me to set the rules for the relationship. She was really uncomfortable when I expressed any emotion - except anger. I got angry a couple times and she was totally comfortable with that. Moral of the story: I won't date another person that values Blue/Orange gender roles within relationships.

I was just wondering what an Orange to Green revolution would look like. Would the Greens fight with hugs and soy lattes?

And 20 years of meditation. . . Sigh

Any definition I could come up with is *within* reality and would be very limited. The closest I've come . . . "IS"

They are potent sedatives. For people prone to anxiety - the sub ego death zone can be high anxiety even panic. I've had some major issues in this zone. A benzo or etizolam can sedate the trip. For me, just knowing I can sedate a trip gives me comfort. I've had a couple trips where I was in a really really uncomfortable situation and wish I had some etizolam. Yet, it's not a guarantee. During my second Ayahuasca ceremony I went into a terror zone and I was about to take an etizolam - then Mother Aya rose up and said "Don't even think about it. You think this is bad? If you try to subdue me you will unleash hell and suffering beyond your worst nightmare". I quickly backed down. I actually felt a bit better, terror didn't seem so awful at that point. I guess it's all relative.

Super. So in the example above, would you consider the apple to be red? The concept of "objective" gets quite thorny. . .

@Shadowraix Last week a freshman student asked me if I was a *real* scientist. He immediately apologized. . . I smiled as I realized that I have been Deepak'd by @Leo Gura

I love contemplating words. When you say "everything that exists as it is " - consider what "as it is" means. Imagine looking at a red apple. What is the red apple "as it is"? As a starter, ask yourself if the red color actually exists. There are no external colors. There are just wavelengths of light. Your brain adds in the color. So, is the apple actually red? A Mantis Shrimp would see dozens of colors on that apple - colors that you don't even know exist. . . What does it mean for a red apple to exist as it is?

@SoonHei I would consider losing one's self into an experience as a form of nonduality. For example, a person experiences a moment of such profound love that there is no time or self. Only the experience of love. This is one of multiple manifistations of nondual experiences I've had.

My phd was in molecular biology. I am currently a bio professor. Universities can be delusional and corrupt. I work at a small liberal arts college that supports multi-disciplinary / integrative teaching. I'm currently teaching a course on consciousness. At most liberal arts colleges, you can elevate to green or yellow without problem. Yet, I don't think I could go Turquoise without push-back. Yet, that is prolly true in most careers in an Orange centered country.

@MM1988 Social conditioning during childhood and adolescence runs deep into a personality structure. Now that you are aware of it, you can start deconstructing it. Rather than identifying with it "I'm this way because I was raised this way" - try taking a step out of "the story" and loosening your attachment and identification with it. Ask contemplation questions "Who am I?". Challenge your beliefs "Where did this belief arise from? Is it true?". Get some distance from beliefs through mediation. It's not easy and can take a long time to deconstruct deep social programming. I spent years working through some conditioned beliefs from my upbringing. There has been stuff that I intellectually understood and let go of - yet I would still get triggered emotionally - 20 years later!! Awareness and letting go is key. In addition to looking at things intellectually, you may want to also consider emotional work. There are mental memories and body memories. For example, let the emotions get out. The deep emotions upset that you were conditioned this way. Let them loose - punch a pillow and scream. Hit a wiffle ball bat against a tree. Try shamanic breathing. It's not necessary against your parents. It's just letting go of repressed emotion from the conditioning.

I don't know much about Kanye's larger persona, yet this video is centered in green (with a little bit of orange and yellow). Introspection for personal growth is green. He emphasized *we* and *collective* which is Green. The idea that God exists within us is Green. Notice how an audience member said "But, that would be the ego". That perspective is Blue looking up at Orange. Further, Kanye brings up the relativity of words such as "help". Cultural relativism is green, yet he seems to be glimpsing at higher-level Yellow relativism. Yet, I don't think he is proficient in this area yet. Also notice how Kanye mentions *collective* God and a woman mentions *duality*. They are getting close to glimpsing Turquoise, yet still using Green framework. Speakers like Adyashanti or Rupert Spira at Turquoise have much deeper understandings. It would be cool if Kanye had some Yellow and Turquoise teachers. I hope he continues to evolve. He can reach communities speakers like Adyashanti cannot.

There are an infinite number of perspectives. I would be cautious about assuming you now have the "right" perspective. I have a habit of doing this myself. It leads to a contracted view and inhibits a holistic view.

@Hellspeed Yes, I just wrote it now. I didn't read the other post you refer to. It all just popped into my mind from some mysterious source

@Ampresus I've heard spiritual teachers say that young children are enlightened, in a sense and unenlightened in a sense. Often, young children are living in the moment, just being themselves. They don't have a "story" or a timeline of past and future. They live in the moment, fully aware of the present moment. Yet, on the other hand - young children are not aware that they are enlightened. So, perhaps your brother is enlightened in a sense. He hasn't been programmed with what everything "means". He doesn't have a complex story about who he is and how everything in life *should* be. He doesn't have to spend years trying to deconstruct all the stories and beliefs we have been programmed with. It sounds like he simply experiences and expresses joy in the present moment. On the other hand, he might not be aware that he is enlightened. I'm curious what you mean by this sentence "Can Truth with the capital T solve maybe some problems for him? ". . . I would recommend contemplating what you consider "problems". Are these things that *you* think are problems for him? Sometimes caring people try to help others with good intentions, but the actual impact is not always helpful. (sometimes it is helpful, it just depends on the situation). Sometimes genuinely caring people assume they know what is best for someone and it is not always true from the other person's perspective. Teaching your brother to use some language may be beneficial to him - it may greatly increase his quality of life. Yet, I would be careful assuming that. From your brother's perceptive and experience there may be other things he values more. I would still consider what is problematic for him from your perspective. Yet, I would encourage you to also let go of your perspective and try to enter *his* world. Try to see things from his perceptive, try to experience his world with him. From your brother's perspective, what is important to him? What does he value? What does he want? What does he consider his problems? What is he trying to communicate he wants help for? You may find you and your brother become great teachers to each other, each with your own perspective. For example, humans rely heavily on language and we have low nonlanguage social and emotional intelligence (compared to language intelligence). Language is limited. Your brother's nonlanguage communication mode is normal relative to him. It's people around him that may think and tell him it's abnormal. By entering his nonlanguage world, you may develop your empathetic and intuitive modes of communication. As well, the two of you may be able to create new forms of nonlanguage communication that lead to deeper levels of human connection and love.

@Seiden Imagine that I came to visit Japan from the USA. I don’t know much about Japan, so I got a tour book. The tour book has Information about Japanese culture, temples to visit, and basic Japanese language. When I arrive to Japan, some of the locals are curious about my behavior and travel plans. I show them the tour book. They seem to think there is a lot of good info in the book, yet it’s just one limited perspective. For example, some of the basic Japanese words the book shows are not actually spoken on the streets and markets. Some of the customs the book describes only tell part of the Japanese history. Plus, the book was written by an American who doesn’t speak Japanese. I would realize that the tour book has some good info, but it is limited - Japan is much broader and deeper than the book describes. Realizing this, I would want to meet Japanese locals to take me around and show me what Japan is like from their perspective.