Forestluv

From a dual perspective, the deeper I go - the more alone I feel. There are less people I can share the deep insights with. They just can't relate.

There are healthy expressions of blue. For example: a military soldier that sacrifices himself to help his wounded comrade. Another way to look at it: Is a dinosaur *better* than a modern deer? No, dinosaurs had their time and place and became extinct. Now deer have their time and place. Eventually, they will go extinct. Similarly, Blue had it's time and place (e.g. The Roman Empire). Now, it's going extinct. The liberals of today will be the conservatives of the future. My students cringe when I say "Marriage is only between a Man and a Woman". That is a conservative view (that is becoming extinct). The progressive view is open to same-sex marriage, transgender couples etc. Now I tell my students to imagine themselves 60 years from now when their grandchildren want the freedom to date and marry Androids. Again, the students cringe! They don't like the idea of humans marrying Androids. In the future, "Marriage is only between two Human Beings" will be the conservative position. They are cool with straight and LGBTQ relationships, but not human-android relationships. They are progressives for today, conservatives for tomorrow.

Guy's, c'mon. . . There is a difference between open-minded questioning and a closed-minded strike. For example: "Can someone explain to me what Leo means when he says "I am God"? I am questioning the meaning of God that I was told in my church during my childhood" VS. "Leo said "I am God"!!!!!! How delusional!!!!! He is a cult leader!!!!!!" Let's stop conflating the two. We highly encourage self inquiry.

There is no more "wrong" about conceptualization than about birds chirping. Conceptualization is loads of fun. I love it! I also like attending concerts and football games. It's all fun stuff. Yet, at the end of the day - it's just conceptualization. I have experienced a level deeper than conceptualization - where all language and concepts break down. Once I returned to the conceptual world, I could see concepts from another perspective - they are just concepts. If I get attached to concepts and identify with concepts - *then* I become more delusional and my spiritual progress slows down. The highest value I see for concepts is as a framework to support direct experience. Years ago, if I had a mystical experience, I blew it off as "whoo whoo" because I didn't have the conceptual framework to support integration. More recently, when I've had mystical experiences - I return and think "Ahhhhh, so *that's* what Adyashanti was trying to explain. I *get* it now". I no longer blow it off as "whoo whoo". And everything I wrote above are just concepts. It aint IT. Fun stuff

That is a lot closer to the experience than how I explained it. So, you'll prolly get this part. . . After suffering in terror for a while, duality collapsed. The terror was just terror. Like a turnip is just a turnip. It wasn't good or bad. There were no distinctions. It was like the terror was no different than the color pink or an ant crawling around. It just was. Mind-blowing stuff? Where did you do Aya? I did an Aya retreat in Peru - summer 2017.

Somewhat similar for me. I grew up in a Catholic home and got involved with Buddhism when I left my home. Consider that what you may be consider "healthy Blue values" are actually at an Orange and Green level. For example, rational views of laws are Orange. Blue values community and so does Green. Yet, Blue's "community" is restricted to their tribe (e.g. white Christians). Green's community is much more expansive and inclusive - whites, minorities, christians, jews, buddhists, LGBTQ etc. Purple level community = a small isolated tribe Blue level community = "their people" - e.g white christians Green level community = multicultural, all people Turquoise level community = all of reality "Community" is not a value for any level. How community is valued and expressed varies among levels.

Not really. Have you ever done Ayahuasca? You can't really conceptualize it like that because it is post-conceptual. Even my story of it is not it - because I am trying to put it into language. It is just a story my mind created to try and relate the experience. All language and concepts broke down. I don't know how else to explain it tho. It might be closer to say - if I mix ammonia and bleach it will become highly toxic.

@DarkestLight Higher levels use laws, but they don't "value" laws for the laws' sake. Blue is pre-rational and thinks either / or. You are either a criminal or a non-criminal. Rational thinking is Orange. Blue values laws irrationally. For example, my mom is deep blue and *values* laws because they are laws. If someone smokes weed in Nebraska it is wrong because it is against the law. That person is a criminal. If someone smokes weed in Colorado it is OK because it is legal in Colorado. So, I ask my mom "What if two people are standing on the border of Colorado and Nebraska sharing a joint. The person on the Nebraska side is a criminal and the person on the Colorado side is OK?". She struggles for a while then answers "Yes". I push it one step further and say "What if a person smoking a joint has one foot in Nebraska and one foot in Colorado? Is the right side of his body criminal? Should half his body go to jail?". My mom is now in utter confusion, then gets angry that I am trying to manipulate her. Another example: Consider people in the U.S. with health conditions that have no health insurance (or their basic coverage does not cover their prescription). They get their medication from Canada "illegally". To Blue this is a crime. I know a middle-age guy whose health care coverage doesn't cover Viagra. The out-of-pocket cost of Viagra is outrageous. He gets Viagra "illegally" on the internet. He is either unable to have sex with his wife or a criminal for breaking prescription medication laws. Orange and above does not "value" laws like Blue. Blue is either / or thinking regarding laws. You are either a criminal or non-criminal. Blue is irrational regarding laws. One must evolve up to Orange to see continuums and think rationally. Noone is saying we should abolish laws. One important aspect of evolving upward is that we do not reject all aspects of lower stages, they become more nuanced and sophisticated.

Sure, there is nothing wrong with teaching healthy red or blue values - yet how will that help the new generation in a culture that is evolving upward? Should we teach millennials how to use flip phones or modern smart phones? Should we teach them how to use commodore 64 computers or new emerging AI technology? Should we teach them homosexuality is immoral? Or should we educate them about emerging expressions of gender? There was a time in the U.S.A. in which conservatives fought against the modern automobile. They wanted to keep the horse and buggy. Before long, we will look back at blue values as ridiculous. Mocking blue values has already become mainstream. The only reason people believe blue values is because they are conditioned to believe blue values. Given free choice between religion and spirituality - humans will choose spirituality. One needs to be programmed to believe lower values.

@Ampresus @cxsxlx Teens usage of psychedelics is common in some societies. For example, in South America. It just sounds weird for Western countries because they have been conditioned to believe it is weird.

Of course not. As well evolve upward, Blue will become extinct. We will shift upward. Orange will be the lower level and more people will be Yellow. Then, new Yellow and Turquoise categories will arise. Purple is dead in the U.S.A. - Blue is dying and will eventually die off.

@VictorB02 For me, cannibis is a great tool for integration. It can be habit forming tho.

Sub ego death trips are also profound. Just different.

@Shroomdoctor Promoting healthy blue would be great in the year 1890 when the the U.S. was blue-centered. But in the year 2018, the country is Orange-centered evolving upward toward Green. Why encourage people to adopt healthy blue values? Why not guide people to adopt healthy Green values? Said in another way. . . Should we promote healthy Red values? Should we teach people in the U.S.A. to how to live with warlords and mafia leaders within their community? Of course not, we are no longer centered in red. Blue is on it's way out. . .

@GeoLura Yep. It sounds like you are transitioning upward. Tripping once a week is a fast pace. I would consider slowing the tripping pace down to give yourself some time to integrate via meditation, contemplative journaling, kriya yoga etc. Whatever works for you.

I hear you. Blue and Orange levels have a different meaning for "God" than Green and higher. When I was Orange level and first heard Rupert Spira talk about God, I was totally turned off. I think a blue or orange person would get triggered by the statement. Yet, a high Orange ready to transition to Green would probably ask "What does he mean when he says "God"? That was the question I asked when I heard Spira talking about God. Can we really have a forum for all levels? I try to imagine myself teaching my genetics course with a range of levels. Imagine me teaching a genetics course with junior high students, high school students, college students and graduate students. It just wouldn't work. That's probably why nobody does it. . . Imagine if Adyashanti's audience was a mix of red, blue, orange, green and yellow. I don't think it would work well. From my perspective, when there is significant blue and orange in the mix, there is significant propagandizing, conflict and debate - which interferes with evolving. Do you think it is wrong to set a standard of upper-orange to lower-green? If a blue-orange person refuses to evolve to this level and wants to drag people down with propagandizing and debate - do you think it's wrong to give them the boot? There are plenty of forums centered at blue-orange.

I think you are using the term "sharing" ideas quite broadly. I would consider at least four subcategories of "sharing" ideas: propagandizing, conflicting, debating and exploring ideas. Propagandizing ideas is a major distraction from learning. These are people intent on spreading their ideas (often erroneous) with no interest of engaging in dialog. Conflicting ideas are people that ignorantly challenge others with the intent of conflict. For example, if I went to a forum for learning Chinese and told the teachers that they actually don't speak Chinese and posted up a bunch of Chinese text to prove my point. Then I go off telling the students what it is really like to live in China (I don't speak Chinese and I have never been to China). The Chinese teachers try to explain that I don't understand Chinese and to be open to learning. I tell them they are wrong and I cut and post some more Chinese images and text to prove my point. This is distracting and misleading to students on the forum that actually want to learn Chinese. This type of conflict instigation occurs on this forum with psychedelics and nonduality. People with no direct experience sometimes parrot what they've read online or stuff they just make up. Debating ideas: I think a lot of people think debating ideas is a great learning method. I see that mentality for some on the forum as well as in academia. IME, I don't think debate is an efficient learning method. It is a middle level Orange zone - I think it can be somewhat useful for high blue to elevate to Orange (Blue eventually sees they are irrational). The problem with debate is that both sides defend their views and want to "win" the debate. Instead of expanding one's mind - it contracts one's mind. Their ideas are often reinforced. Look at some debates between Richard Dawkins and religious zealots. Both sides defend their own position and very little comes out of it. Exploring ideas: This is the learning zone IMO. This is where people are doing self inquiry. Where they realize they don't know it all. Where they are introspective and are open to challenging their own beliefs. It is where "winning" is no longer about being right. "Winning" is about learning and expanding oneself. It is where truth becomes more important than being right and proving others wrong. It is where people say things like "Interesting, I've never thought about it like that". It is where people get curious about psychedelics, chakras, shamanic breathing etc. It is where they try the practices for themselves. It is where people get curious about what Leo means when he says "I am God". It is where they question their belief of what God is and are open to deepening their understanding of God. . .. On this forum, Emerald is a great example. On the national scene, Deepak Chopra is a great example. He explores ideas of science and spirituality. Discussions he has at green and higher levels are beautiful. Yet, when Richard Dawkins enters the picture - it gets ugly. Dawkins is a brilliant geneticist, yet doesn't know shit about spirituality. But he tries to debate and "beat" Chopra (who is much more spiritually advanced). It seems like the average consciousness on the board is upper-orange transitioning to green. This is the transition from debate to exploring. This will be uncomfortable for blue and orange level people. They will want to propagandize, conflict, debate and to pull others down into debate. They will complain that they don't have free speech. They will complain that they are being silenced. We saw this with the blue-orange JP crowd. And if an orange-level Richard Dawkins crowd entered the forum - we would see it with them as well. And it's not just about those that defend blue-orange ideology. Those of us at Green and higher need to be mindful not to drop down to mudslinging and low-level debates. It's easy to fall into that trap - it's happened to me. Personally, I want to continue increasing my level of consciousness and to develop better interpersonal skills so I can learn faster and better help others to evolve. There are countless forums on the internet centered at red, blue and orange. There are much fewer forums centered at Green or Yellow. It takes work to maintain that higher level. . . Consider spiritual Satsangs with Adyashanti or Rupert Spira. This is a high Green audience. The audience is not there to propagandize, initiate conflict or debate. The audience members want to learn, explore and evolve. Watch a two hour Satsang with Adyashanti and a two hour debate between Dawkins and a religious zealot. It's obvious which crowd is learning and evolving. They are worlds apart.

Hmmm, how different is manipulation than interpretation? Don’t our minds interpret information to suit the self? Isn’t the delusional self a form of manipulated information? Isn’t the story of your life a grand manipulation? Think of all the interpretations and meanings you have added to create a life story. Think of all the memories that have been added, deleted and edited within your life story. All to create an illusionary self. A finite self that believes it exists through a timeline. Is this not manipulation of information to suit the agenda of the self? But oh how the self dislikes being called out on it’s mischievous behavour! Like a big brother that gets annoyed that his little brother tattled on him ?

What a party pooper ?

That’s nice to hear from someone at a high consciousness level. I think psychedelics rocketed me up to Turqoise, but I still have a prominent Green shadow I’m working through. It’s like I’m an unstable Turquoise that keeps falling into Green. It’s still hard for me to work my way back up to Turquoise without psychedelics.

@Leo Gura Were some of those trips moderate doses? Or all break-throughs? I’m considering alternating a break-through (30+mg) once a month and a moderate trip (20mg) once a month.

Welcome to the forum! It sounds like you’ve done quite a bit of introspective work. To me, your essay looks like high Orange resisting the transition into Green. It is common for high Orange to want to identify with Yellow and skip Green. You know you have embodied Green when you desire Turqouise and resist Yellow. Remember SD is just a map - it’s not the territory. I would recomnend using multiple methods. Spiritual teachers, contemplative journaling, self inquiry, meditation and yoga are all great compliments to SD. Even one teacher that you resonate with can help put things into perspective.

@Source_Mystic Be wary of becoming attached to a teacher or repulsed by a teacher.

@Shin Think about baseball.

Where on earth did you get these ideas? Masturbation is common in the animal world and humans have been masturbating for thousands of years.