Forestluv

@Joseph Maynor An Orange level rationalist will assume a that there pre-rational view is higher order understanding - they have not transcended rationalism. I see this on the forum with ideas of nothingness, everything, emptiness, absolute infinity, you were never born etc. Some will believe they are at a Yellow stage. Once a person is Yellow, it becomes obvious. The person is using a handsaw and telling people it’s a chainsaw. Once you know what a chainsaw is, it’s easy to spot handsaws. @SFRL Rational nonsense can be irritating. Keep in mind that some are genuinely trying to evolve upward and we are here to help them. Calling all rationalists idiots isn’t helpful. And some rationalists aren’t complete idiots. Richard Dawkins is a brilliant geneticist, he’s just an idiot with spirituality. ? @Jack River One thing that helped me was when Leo challenged my belief of what intelligence is. And he didn’t accept a rational answer. I’d recommend contemplating “what is intelligence”? The rational and trans-rational views are quite different.

@The Don Nice. Authentic is good too

This video is high Orange with a little bit of low yellow. He mistates moral relativism (green) and systems thinking (yellow). He doesn’t seem skilled at post-rational thought He mentions psychedelics, yet I don’t get the sense he has integrated his experiences. SD breaks down at Turquoise, and he didn’t acknowledge nonduality, and the loss of distinctions - language and concepts no longer make sense. He keeps mentioning some product - he is trying to sell?

@Setty If JP resonates with you - go for it. I encourage you to outgrow JP. That may seem inconceivable now, but you can do it. Sam Harris was my primary teacher for a long time. He is so brilliant, I couldn’t imagine reaching his level. Then one day I became aware that I had surpassed Harris. I could see more holistically. It was like I was watching a child learn how to ride a bicycle. It’s an amazing perspective. I watched a video of a 13 year old kid at Yellow stage. Two levels higher than JP. Society is advancing faster and faster. . .

Both Red and Orange are motivated to fulfill personal desires. Irange is just more sophisticated. Red might cut an adversaries fingers off, Orange might slander an adversary.

When you advance higher, you do not reject lower level aspects - they become more sophisticated. Think of a spiral staircase. Green spirals around over Blue. Both Green and Blue value community - yet Green connunity is more sophisticated than Blue community. Similarly, Yellow spirals over Orange. A hallmark of Orange is rational thinking. A yellow individual doesn’t think “I need to work on my rational thinking, I better drop back down to Orange so I can work on it”. No. A yellow person maintains the ability to think rationally - but now it is more sophisticated. A yellow would integrate rational thought with relativism and systems thinking. Also, a meta view of SD is yellow systems thinking. Don’t assume all yellow level thinkers will think the same. Just like two Orange level scientists won’t necessarily think the same.

@Setty SD is just a model. It has it’s uses and it’s limitations. You can cherry pick JP. Why did you leave out his position in things like postmodernism and LGBTQ? JP is weighed down by Blue and Orange. Just like Richard Dawkins is weighed down in Orange. I had let go of 20 years of scientific study to evolve higher. It aint easy, but it is sooo liberating. Once you advance up to Green and Yellow you will look back and think “Why on earth did I hold on to blue/orange?”

Because my mind is imaginative and likes to wonder about things.

Yea, I think about stuff. I'm not sure what you are asking.

Think about what?

From a dual perspective, the deeper I go - the more alone I feel. There are less people I can share the deep insights with. They just can't relate.

There are healthy expressions of blue. For example: a military soldier that sacrifices himself to help his wounded comrade. Another way to look at it: Is a dinosaur *better* than a modern deer? No, dinosaurs had their time and place and became extinct. Now deer have their time and place. Eventually, they will go extinct. Similarly, Blue had it's time and place (e.g. The Roman Empire). Now, it's going extinct. The liberals of today will be the conservatives of the future. My students cringe when I say "Marriage is only between a Man and a Woman". That is a conservative view (that is becoming extinct). The progressive view is open to same-sex marriage, transgender couples etc. Now I tell my students to imagine themselves 60 years from now when their grandchildren want the freedom to date and marry Androids. Again, the students cringe! They don't like the idea of humans marrying Androids. In the future, "Marriage is only between two Human Beings" will be the conservative position. They are cool with straight and LGBTQ relationships, but not human-android relationships. They are progressives for today, conservatives for tomorrow.

Guy's, c'mon. . . There is a difference between open-minded questioning and a closed-minded strike. For example: "Can someone explain to me what Leo means when he says "I am God"? I am questioning the meaning of God that I was told in my church during my childhood" VS. "Leo said "I am God"!!!!!! How delusional!!!!! He is a cult leader!!!!!!" Let's stop conflating the two. We highly encourage self inquiry.

There is no more "wrong" about conceptualization than about birds chirping. Conceptualization is loads of fun. I love it! I also like attending concerts and football games. It's all fun stuff. Yet, at the end of the day - it's just conceptualization. I have experienced a level deeper than conceptualization - where all language and concepts break down. Once I returned to the conceptual world, I could see concepts from another perspective - they are just concepts. If I get attached to concepts and identify with concepts - *then* I become more delusional and my spiritual progress slows down. The highest value I see for concepts is as a framework to support direct experience. Years ago, if I had a mystical experience, I blew it off as "whoo whoo" because I didn't have the conceptual framework to support integration. More recently, when I've had mystical experiences - I return and think "Ahhhhh, so *that's* what Adyashanti was trying to explain. I *get* it now". I no longer blow it off as "whoo whoo". And everything I wrote above are just concepts. It aint IT. Fun stuff

That is a lot closer to the experience than how I explained it. So, you'll prolly get this part. . . After suffering in terror for a while, duality collapsed. The terror was just terror. Like a turnip is just a turnip. It wasn't good or bad. There were no distinctions. It was like the terror was no different than the color pink or an ant crawling around. It just was. Mind-blowing stuff? Where did you do Aya? I did an Aya retreat in Peru - summer 2017.

Somewhat similar for me. I grew up in a Catholic home and got involved with Buddhism when I left my home. Consider that what you may be consider "healthy Blue values" are actually at an Orange and Green level. For example, rational views of laws are Orange. Blue values community and so does Green. Yet, Blue's "community" is restricted to their tribe (e.g. white Christians). Green's community is much more expansive and inclusive - whites, minorities, christians, jews, buddhists, LGBTQ etc. Purple level community = a small isolated tribe Blue level community = "their people" - e.g white christians Green level community = multicultural, all people Turquoise level community = all of reality "Community" is not a value for any level. How community is valued and expressed varies among levels.

Not really. Have you ever done Ayahuasca? You can't really conceptualize it like that because it is post-conceptual. Even my story of it is not it - because I am trying to put it into language. It is just a story my mind created to try and relate the experience. All language and concepts broke down. I don't know how else to explain it tho. It might be closer to say - if I mix ammonia and bleach it will become highly toxic.

@DarkestLight Higher levels use laws, but they don't "value" laws for the laws' sake. Blue is pre-rational and thinks either / or. You are either a criminal or a non-criminal. Rational thinking is Orange. Blue values laws irrationally. For example, my mom is deep blue and *values* laws because they are laws. If someone smokes weed in Nebraska it is wrong because it is against the law. That person is a criminal. If someone smokes weed in Colorado it is OK because it is legal in Colorado. So, I ask my mom "What if two people are standing on the border of Colorado and Nebraska sharing a joint. The person on the Nebraska side is a criminal and the person on the Colorado side is OK?". She struggles for a while then answers "Yes". I push it one step further and say "What if a person smoking a joint has one foot in Nebraska and one foot in Colorado? Is the right side of his body criminal? Should half his body go to jail?". My mom is now in utter confusion, then gets angry that I am trying to manipulate her. Another example: Consider people in the U.S. with health conditions that have no health insurance (or their basic coverage does not cover their prescription). They get their medication from Canada "illegally". To Blue this is a crime. I know a middle-age guy whose health care coverage doesn't cover Viagra. The out-of-pocket cost of Viagra is outrageous. He gets Viagra "illegally" on the internet. He is either unable to have sex with his wife or a criminal for breaking prescription medication laws. Orange and above does not "value" laws like Blue. Blue is either / or thinking regarding laws. You are either a criminal or non-criminal. Blue is irrational regarding laws. One must evolve up to Orange to see continuums and think rationally. Noone is saying we should abolish laws. One important aspect of evolving upward is that we do not reject all aspects of lower stages, they become more nuanced and sophisticated.

Sure, there is nothing wrong with teaching healthy red or blue values - yet how will that help the new generation in a culture that is evolving upward? Should we teach millennials how to use flip phones or modern smart phones? Should we teach them how to use commodore 64 computers or new emerging AI technology? Should we teach them homosexuality is immoral? Or should we educate them about emerging expressions of gender? There was a time in the U.S.A. in which conservatives fought against the modern automobile. They wanted to keep the horse and buggy. Before long, we will look back at blue values as ridiculous. Mocking blue values has already become mainstream. The only reason people believe blue values is because they are conditioned to believe blue values. Given free choice between religion and spirituality - humans will choose spirituality. One needs to be programmed to believe lower values.

@Ampresus @cxsxlx Teens usage of psychedelics is common in some societies. For example, in South America. It just sounds weird for Western countries because they have been conditioned to believe it is weird.

Of course not. As well evolve upward, Blue will become extinct. We will shift upward. Orange will be the lower level and more people will be Yellow. Then, new Yellow and Turquoise categories will arise. Purple is dead in the U.S.A. - Blue is dying and will eventually die off.

@VictorB02 For me, cannibis is a great tool for integration. It can be habit forming tho.

Sub ego death trips are also profound. Just different.

@Shroomdoctor Promoting healthy blue would be great in the year 1890 when the the U.S. was blue-centered. But in the year 2018, the country is Orange-centered evolving upward toward Green. Why encourage people to adopt healthy blue values? Why not guide people to adopt healthy Green values? Said in another way. . . Should we promote healthy Red values? Should we teach people in the U.S.A. to how to live with warlords and mafia leaders within their community? Of course not, we are no longer centered in red. Blue is on it's way out. . .

@GeoLura Yep. It sounds like you are transitioning upward. Tripping once a week is a fast pace. I would consider slowing the tripping pace down to give yourself some time to integrate via meditation, contemplative journaling, kriya yoga etc. Whatever works for you.