Forestluv

Would you say the buildings exist, yet thoughts don't exist? I.e. the building itself exists, yet the mind's idea that this is a building does not exist?

@winterknight Would it be more accurate to say the physical buildings are *within* the University? And that the University cannot be located as an object? Similarly, thoughts are like buildings *within* a Self. Yet, The Self cannot be located as an object of a self. Once step further. . . each individual entity is like a building within a single consciousness (one holistic Self of everything)?

A beautiful guide. Thank you for sharing it.

Is this in the area of what is actual vs. imagined? Leo gives an exercise in which one looks and feels their hand. Then, they put their hand behind their back and imagine looking and feeling their hand. For me, the lesson is that the mind conflates what is actual in the moment and what is imagined. The mind often groups it all together as "real". One can look around the room and explore what is actual. Then imagine being born, your memories, a deadline at work etc. - all fantasy. Over time one learns to distinguish what is actual and what is an imagined concept. Would this be aligned with your example? The buildings would be actual in the person's field of perception, the University of Texas is an imagined concept and not actual. If we dig deeper. . . are the buildings in the perception field "real"? Isn't a degree of separation necessary to distinguish the object (building) and subject (me)? Even if the buildings aren't technically real, can we still make a distinction between what is actual now vs. what is imagined? Or is it all equally imagined?

@graded24 I've noticed a field of "Quantum Biology" is gradually emerging. Do you think quantum phenomena will be apparent at the molecular level? For example, quantum tunneling playing a role in DNA alterations.

We spent a couple hours going over my chart. It was more complex and nuanced than I imagined. Super interesting.

@Robby Attend a spiritual retreat. They attract high conscous people and there is a good chance there will be a few very high conscious people. They could also point you in the right direction.

@DrewNows Yea, I actually screwed up the dosage the first time and took waaay to much. I blasted right through ego death - no time for anxiety or fear. For sure. I've often thought that conceptualizing about awakening is fun and games. Facing it is *much* more difficult. Like the old saying "Shit just got real"

i'm sensing some attachments with a self image. Dissolving / deconstructing the self can be a long process - something I am still working on. When speaking of transcendence of the self and awakenings, we often use terms like "you", "me", "I" and "we". The traditional use of these terms is illusory ("I" doesn't exist). Yet, it's a royal pain in the butt trying to communicate with each other without these terms. So, there is an underlying unspoken understanding that the conventional you/me/I/we doesn't exist and we are using the terms out of convenience. This was super confusing to me as I was transitioning through this stage. Your posts seem to be a mixture of self improvement and self transcendence. - You seem to use key words like "I", "me" and "we" with a degree of dissociation, yet also with identification as if those ideas are real. My questions were taking a peek at how much identification there is with a self. I think that is where your confusion lies.

I learned more during my first mushroom trip than my previous 20+ years of Buddhism and meditation. Yet, I big part of that revolved around ego death.

Thanks. I realize this is something I need to walk through with effort, work and direct experience. I only started using psychedelics about two years ago and the awakenings have come fast and furious - awakenings of various facets of Truth. The progress blew away over two decades of traditional meditation and I've felt overwhelmed trying to integrate all the lessons. Yet recently, the new awakenings have slowed to the point desire for more has returned. I'll try the low dose / contemplation route. I just got some ald-52, which has a much milder effect on me. Hopefully, the energy regarding this lesson has become strong enough that it will soon reveal itself.

I've thought about quite a bit myself. I often hear awakened beings say things like nonduality cannot be explained, only pointed to. I acknowledge that has been true for thousands of years - yet I question whether that is an assumption. What if in 200 years all beings are in nondual states? It was not a mindset people had to work years and years to reach. People are born and raised into it. If that was "normal" would not a method of communication arise? Perhaps hyper-intuition would serve as a "language".

I've been there. I had a 4 hour mushroom trip in the sub-ego death zone. Very uncomfortable. I so much wanted to just breakthrough or start coming down. Yet it was like the teacher said "Nope, I'm going to keep you here just prior to ego death to show you some stuff". The process gets easier. You may want to try something like ald-52 or San Pedro. They are much more gentle than mushrooms. Or, a lower dose of shrooms.

It was about a minute after the process started. It took about 5 minutes for the 5-meo to kick in. It was my highest dose and the onset came on strong. It's the only time I've felt anxiety / fear with 5-meo. There was a point of recognition that this could be complete insanity and absolute hell and I remembered all posts I read online about people going through hell with 5-meo and going through mental suffering afterwards. I thought I had pushed my luck and now it was my turn. I began wishing I hadn't taken the 5-meo and I wanted to go back so much - yet I couldn't change or stop it. There was a brief moment of full-on panic and then the break-through. After breakthrough, distinctions started to dissolve. Things stopped making sense. Words stopped making sense. Images stopped making sense. I lost all my senses - including vision, hearing and feeling. It was like putting cream into black coffee. You start off with a clear distinction. Then imagine slowly stirring and the cream gradually mixing with the coffee until the two are completely mixed and there is no difference. The null void was pure null. Then, there was a first distinction. Awareness appeared at that moment to be aware of the distinction. There was no awareness prior to the first distinction. There was nothing to be aware of. The pure void was prior to awareness. Awareness appeared with the first distinction. In hindsight, it seems I am very fortunate to have any recollection of this. I've blacked out on high doses of psychedelics before and I don't know why I didn't this time.

@Mikael89 @Jack River I've been under anesthesia twice. It was not the same. Not even close. The only anxiety / fear was breaking through the self - which came very early. Once the process started, the self was completely broken though in the first minute. The self re-appeared at about minute 12. It's beyond any idea or concept. Those were blown away after the first few minutes. Upon returning, we can't add in concepts because it is prior to concepts. It would be like trying to explain your "experience" as a fetus in your mother's womb. Anything you say or do to try to communicate it comes AFTER birth and it aint it.

Thank you Leo. It was with 32mg of 5-meo plugged. I would say the trip to the null void and the return involved sensory field alterations. Yet, the pure void was absolute nothing. I was blind, deaf etc. Yet, it wasn't a "black out" like I have had with high psychedelic doses. I haven't yet had the direct experience of "the void" in everyday life. I look around my room now and it is not the same as the null void. Perhaps I I ventured to absolute formless, yet haven't integrated that with form yet. I.e. formless is form. What you wrote on distinguishing between awakening and sensory field changes resonates. I will put work into that.

@Mikael89 @Jack River There are no words to describe it. Any word I use is a distinction. Any word I use is out of context. This was so far prior to any concepts. It was so far prior to any image. Prior to anything that can be imagined. Any thought, word, concept or image aint it. ALL that stuff got blown away in the beginning. It doesn't make sense, because it was prior to sense. It was prior to it. So yeah, it wasn't an experience. It wasn't anything.

Have you experienced just the "I AM" without any identification at all? How about the phrase "Spirit is present"?

There is no way anyone could forget it. It would be like getting hit by a car and spending a week in a coma. I had several lite forms of the null void prior to full deal. Yes. 5-meo-dmt. It has appeared in my life everyday since the experience.

For me, a high dose of 5-meo-dmt. I would recommend novices be careful tho. I had a series of facet awakenings in the years leading up to this doozy.

The null void was absolute nothing. There were no sensations. I was literally blind, deaf, no feeling, no taste, no smell. I was dead - mind and body. Absolute nothing. There was nothing to make a distinction. There was nothing to even have a distinction about. I was slowly brought to the null void and slowly brought back. This was so far beyond any sense I've ever gotten from spiritual masters talking about emptiness, silence, stillness etc. Leo is the only person I know who I sense has been there and understands the direct experience. . . Breaking through was a rough ride though. My mind-body still has strong resistance to returning.

@Shadowraix Ken Wilber describes it beautifully:

No, but I've become comfortable with ambiguity and uncertainty.

So, is everything spoken about in this thread illusion? Is that aligned with the saying "The words are merely pointers to that which cannot be explained"?

@Shadowraix The trans-rational will appear as irrational to a rationalist. The trans-rationalist can see the irrationality within a rationalist.