Forestluv

@Mikael89 @Jack River There are no words to describe it. Any word I use is a distinction. Any word I use is out of context. This was so far prior to any concepts. It was so far prior to any image. Prior to anything that can be imagined. Any thought, word, concept or image aint it. ALL that stuff got blown away in the beginning. It doesn't make sense, because it was prior to sense. It was prior to it. So yeah, it wasn't an experience. It wasn't anything.

Have you experienced just the "I AM" without any identification at all? How about the phrase "Spirit is present"?

There is no way anyone could forget it. It would be like getting hit by a car and spending a week in a coma. I had several lite forms of the null void prior to full deal. Yes. 5-meo-dmt. It has appeared in my life everyday since the experience.

For me, a high dose of 5-meo-dmt. I would recommend novices be careful tho. I had a series of facet awakenings in the years leading up to this doozy.

The null void was absolute nothing. There were no sensations. I was literally blind, deaf, no feeling, no taste, no smell. I was dead - mind and body. Absolute nothing. There was nothing to make a distinction. There was nothing to even have a distinction about. I was slowly brought to the null void and slowly brought back. This was so far beyond any sense I've ever gotten from spiritual masters talking about emptiness, silence, stillness etc. Leo is the only person I know who I sense has been there and understands the direct experience. . . Breaking through was a rough ride though. My mind-body still has strong resistance to returning.

@Shadowraix Ken Wilber describes it beautifully:

No, but I've become comfortable with ambiguity and uncertainty.

So, is everything spoken about in this thread illusion? Is that aligned with the saying "The words are merely pointers to that which cannot be explained"?

@Shadowraix The trans-rational will appear as irrational to a rationalist. The trans-rationalist can see the irrationality within a rationalist.

@Nahm We are all inter-connected by nothing. . . I love me some trans-rational humor

How does it feel to take a step back and rephrase as follows: "I Am" "There is spirit" Does that resonate or does some resistance arise?

@MM1988 It's a strategy for a self to cope with life. From a nondual perspective, you are God. So God would be "testing" itself. You seem to be conflating pain and suffering.

When the illusion is realized, what remains?

@Nahm We've got *nothing* in common. . .

That does "nothing" for me

A few things that have helped me: 1. Anything that relaxes the mind (yoga, meditation, running, time in nature etc.) 2. Let go of trying to stop thinking. It just makes it worse. When you are in a noisy restaurant, do you try to stop other people from talking to quiet things down? Of course not, you just let the background chatter do it's thing. Similarly, rather than trying to stop thoughts, allow it to be background chatter. You can sit and observe background chatter in a restaurant. See if you can observe background chatter in your mind. 3. Leo's "Do Nothing" meditation is great for hyper-active minds. It may seem overly simple, yet it can be a very powerful tool.

IME, the energetic shift from Orange to Green did not arise from self interest to progress up the spiral. That would be a personal achievement goal that is Orange-centered. After 20+ years of being Orange-centered, I hit an existential crisis. I took logic and rational thinking to it's Orange end. It became so painful that I could no longer continue. I was hyper logical. over-analyzed everything and got into debates a lot. My career, my relationships, my view on life. It was no longer fulfilling. Then, an energetic desire for something deeper emerged. To understand the relative experience of others. To form deep human connections. To experience post-rational being. I had to give up A LOT of attachments to beliefs - yet the struggle was well worth it. Green is much more fulfilling than Orange. Once go Green, ya never go back. . .

Perhaps. Yet, the inquiry comes from a much deeper nuance within direct experience - not via conceptualization. My sense is there is a particular distinction to integrate the direct experience knowing to conceptual understanding. I know Leo has direct experience with the null void and has deeper integration than I. He immediately recognized my direct experience as Mu via his own direct experience. He has a knack at understanding people's direct experience partial awakenings and connecting dots toward a more expansive / deeper awakening. A skill I am working to develop. Edit: Yikes, I just realized Leo's latest video is on perception and I haven't watched it yet. Perhaps the key lies within the video. Juicy stuff.

@graded24 Great stuff. Thank you. The part about the quantum world appearing "fuzzy" is awesome. The human mind has millions of years of evolution to easily understand a macro environment. As well, humans get conditioned from birth to conceptualize a macro world: object : subject, motion, gravity etc. It's like we develop a maco lens for the world and when we try to focus on something close-up - the image is fuzzy. I remember when the internet arose - conceptually it was mindblowing. It took a while to process new ways of looking at reality. Yet, kids today need zero processing - digital phenomena just is. They have no more difficulty accepting nearly instantaneous transfer of images across the world as they have accepting the sandwich they are eating. Both simply are. I wonder if children were taught concepts like superposition - they would easily accept and grasp it - since they have no prior lens to make it "fuzzy". They are taught Europe is a continent on the other side of the world - they accept it no problem. They are taught the earth revolves around the sun - they accept it no problem. What if they are taught one thing can be many things at once? I bet they would accept it no problem. From my experience in cellular biology, assumptions and dogma is most strongly ingrained in the "old guard". I'd say young scientists are more open to new discoveries, looking at things differently and progressing into new frontiers. Yet it seems their zealous nature is prone to drifting off into what some call "pseudo science". I'm curious of the "old guard" physicists put up more resistance than the young budding physicists. As well, you mentioned the language of math is better suited to convey quantum phenomena. I often hear nonduality teachers say that "It" cannot be explained in words - that words are inherently dualistic. The words only point to what cannot be described with words. I'm curious if you think it is similar with quantum mechanics. Are words inherently unable to describe quantum phenomena? Or language simply lagging behind? If quantum phenomena became mainstream, could new English words / concepts arise to communicate it on par with the language of math? English has evolved to communicate other physical phenomena such as electricity, magnetism, gravity, Could English evolve to communicate quantum phenomena?

Alrighty. . . so when 5-meo took me to the null void - all distinctions gradually dissolved and there was absolute nothing. There was no perceiver and nothing to be perceived. Then, the first distinction appeared and there was awareness of it. Yet, this awareness was prior to a "self". Gradually, more and more distinctions arose. . . a basic shape, a color. As more distinctions gradually arose, it took a long time until the first symbols, words and concepts appeared. And a very long time until a self arose. Once the self arose, there was a different feel to the awareness. So different I'd rather not use the same word for it. Based on this direct experience, there is a knowing of perception prior to words, concepts, and a self. Yet in that null void, nothing existed. I know I'm conceptualizing here, but. . . it seemed one could group it into three stages: 1. Nothing ; 2. prior-self awareness ; 3. Self-based awareness. Reflecting back on it, I could make a distinctive "essence" to each stage. There was like a pivot point to each stage. So, how can one say perception exists in the null void? Is this a radically deeper usage of the terms "perception" and "existence" or was it a partial awakening?

I'll start the ball rolling with a couple questions for @graded24: As a preface, I have little knowledge in Quantum Systems - yet I find it fascinating. Almost like a bridge from science to mysticism. First, the stereotype of science is that it is limited to materialism, yet Quantum Mechanics seems to include both. For example, there is the basic idea that a material entity can have an immaterial superposition. For example, could one imagine an electron as both form and formless - the formless takes form upon observation? Or, would it be better to use a more classic scientific view in that energy is neither created or destroyed - only transformed. Here, one could one imagine an unobserved electron is an energy field of possible positions and upon observation that energy is transformed into a physical particle? Similar to chemical energy in a car being transformed into kinetic energy?

Yep. Just as scientists get stuck in scientific paradigms - spiritualists get stuck in spiritual paradigms. It boils down to ideology. I know it well, I was trapped in the scientific paradigm for over 20 years. Science as materialism is a limited belief. Materialism is *within* science. The scientific method is open to the immaterial.

Be mindful of lack of direct experience and knowledge. I've spent well over 50,000 hours immersed in conducting and evaluating science. I became full immersed into science as an expert, then transcended science. From this direct experience, the views you offer on science appear naive. It seems you are making assumptions about science without a deep level of direct experience and knowledge. For example, science is not limited to materialism.

It is "known" by which it appears. It is "known" by itself. This is one facet of awakening. All of these concepts are highly sophisticated distinctions. Even concepts that appear to transcend concepts. Go to the place before you were born. Go to the place that proceeds all concepts. All language. All images. All symbols. All distinctions collapse into nothing. A lot of what's being offered in this thread are awakenings. Some of which I have not yet had direct experience. Yet, one facet of awakening that seems to be getting off track is that it's all inherently meaningless. I get the sense that there is some attachment to very sophisticated, subtle spiritual beliefs. There is nothing "wrong" with that, it's just extremely difficult for the self to be aware of. One facet of true freedom is zero attachment to anything. Regardless of how spiritual the idea is. Can a buddhist monk let go of all his profound beliefs and experiences? How about an advaita master? How about a scientific master? Can they let go of them like they were just a fantasy dream? Or do they actually believe them?

I don't get the sense you have direct experience with the null void of absolute nothing yet. This is a question of distinctions which traveling to and from the null void can reveal. IME, 5-meo is the best tool to travel there.