Forestluv

@winterknight During meditation today, the mind became still and the self-inquiry question "What is Love?" arose. There was no analysis or thinking about what love is. Yet, there was also no nonverbal appearances of what Love is. The question just existed there in the stillness. It just sat there. Then it would dissolve into nothingness and reappear. Yet, nothing else related to Love appeared. Should there be attention effort to maintain the presence of the inquiry? Or is it ok if it dissolves and reappears? (When it dissolved, mental chatter was still low and off in the distance).

@winterknight Thank you for your time and effort! This thread is a wonderful help to increase the consciousness on the forum

It seems meditative self inquiry space has a distinct essence from conceptualizing. I often see people go into sophisticated concepts around enlightenment - many of which are quite alluring. At times, I sense what could be called an advanced "observer + object" stage. "Objects" would include physical objects, thoughts, concepts, memories, feelings, physical body etc. There is an underlying awareness that is still and ever present. Spiritual conceptualizing seemed to be helpful for a while. There would be a glimpse of the Truth and upon "returning" to the self, the self did not dismiss it as "woo woo" because of the conceptual framework present. Yet now this deep state of pure presence is more common and stable. This pure presence doesn't need any concepts for validation. Digging into spiritual concepts seemed to serve me for so long, yet now there is a sense that they are a distraction and are actually pulling me away from deeper awakening. Sometimes all the concepts seem like fun and games *within* that ISness. That they are all inherently meaningless and have no more relevance than any other input or impulse. Even the spiritual traditions, statues, bowing etc. lack relevance. In the place of emptiness, none of that stuff matters, it is only when the self returns that it seems to matter. In that stillness, ALL of the ideas, concepts, deities, enlightened masters, principles etc are within the illusion. All of it For a being at this stage, would you recommend more sitting with nonverbal inquiry such as "what is perception?", "who am I?" as a bridge to the stillness of everything/nothing? Is part of deeper surrender letting go of spiritual concepts?

Yup. It’s all one everything / nothing. Fun stuff.

That can be scary to a self.

This is so awesome. Have a wonderful retreat! ♥️

@winterknight The whole bit about enlightenment being a process is just another story in the mind. Just another illusion of the seeker. . . Illusory thoughts are connected to create illusory stories. Illusory stories are connected to form an illusory self. The illusory self sets up an illusory game of life. The self seeks to validate and protect itself. It must keep itself relevant to stay in the game. Other selfs seek truth and liberation through enlightenment. They seek all over the world for years and years, only to realize they were enlightened all along. The greatest cosmic joke ever told. . .

Like birds chirping in my backyard.

Thanks. Yet, even in the busiest mind, is there not an underlying stillness? As if one is sitting in a busy area of NYC at complete peace?

@Key Elements Cool!!!

That is a beautifully juicy Orange mindset. Go for it and have fun.

I may be at that transitional stage now. When I "return" to the "self" mindset, the "return" has a more mature essence. There isn't as much grasping for the "enlightened state" anymore. It's all just whatever. It's all just what is. . . Nonverbal insights during self inquiry, tired at work, thoughts about traveling, not wanting to wash the dishes etc. There can be this eternal "ISness" about it. As if I was just making shit up that it is somehow different. Yet, there is even an awareness that making up a story is just making up a story. No different than admiring a beautiful sunset, shedding a tear while reading a love poem or stepping in dog poo. There is no escaping what "IS". Everything is eternally IS

"I" have absolutely no doubt of knowing that. Yet, it is non-abiding. However, each time I return to the self-based mindset, the self is weaker, a little less there. I thought you wrote earlier that enlightenment is a one-shot deal. Is it a process for some? For me, it seems like the self has taken several heavy blows during the process and is gradually dissolving away to nothing.

Debate is based on rational thought and reason. This is indicative of tier 1. Tier 2 includes additional modes of thinking including relativism and post-rational thinking. Tier 2 is not attached to beliefs or ideas. Tier 2 is about an exploration of ideas, not a debate of ideas. There are various expression of Orange. My Orange expressions were personal achievement, science, logic and knowledge. Other aspects of Orange were not expressed, including materialism. I somewhat agree with your idea about pursuing truth and personal goals. I've always been a seeker of truth, yet during my Orange stage I was also a seeker of knowledge. This formed an odd hybrid in which I sought truth via science. I also got into a lot of logical debates about what is true. Overcoming adversity for personal gain is indeed a trait of Orange - which I was very good at for over 20 years of my adult life. So in that respect, I was "successful". Yet, from the perspective of evolving my consciousness, it was unsuccessful. The Orange-level trap I see here is the idea that surrender is failure. That idea prevents one from evolving to a trans-personal level. An ego must surrender for one to transcend the ego. I am using the term "fulfilling" in a different context. There came a point in which I recognized how shallow Orange was. I was fulfilled in Orange, yet levels deeper than Orange appeared that were not filled. There was a deep desire to fulfill these deeper levels and nothing in Orange could do it. There is an energetic shift from tier 1 to tier 2. Tier 1 is based on personal need-based seeking energy. Tier 2 is based on exploring and discovering the magnificence of life. They are very different energetic orientations. Overall, Tier 1 is like drinking gutter water. Tier 2 is like drinking spring water.

I used to repress emotions. This is based on my experience: 1. Do whatever you need to do to relax the mind. If you mind is in full-blown chatter mode during meditation try something else. Running, yoga, reading about spirituality, a bath, shamanic breathing. Whatever you need to do relax the mind. I made virtually no progress with a hyper-active mind. 2. During periods when your mind slows down is your opportunity. For me, there were small "gaps" between thoughts. Those are golden. It is in the gaps in which the "observer" can appear. One exercise I would do is to imagine thoughts are like logs. I imagined myself on the bank of a river watching logs (thoughts) float down the river. 3. Over and over and over again, I would jump on a log and start thinking. Then realize I was thinking. Back to the riverbank (or back to your breath). A beginner mind needs something to ground itself - like a riverbank or the breath. Counting breaths can be great. It's too difficult to simply sit in silence without thought. Aint gonna happen for a while. Recognizing thinking is a big step forward. Observing thoughts is an enormous step forward. 4. Every time a thought arose, I would pause and label it "thought" and return to the breath. Every time I recognized I was lost in thought I would label it "thinking" and return to the breath. Every time a feeling arose I would label it "feeling" and return to the breath. This is developing the "observer" stage. The observer is closer to the "real you" than thoughts and feelings. Every time you label a thought or feeling you are the observer telling the ego "I see you". . . This stage sucks. There is no way to sugar-coat it. It's really uncomfortable and the ego will have very strong resistance. You will encounter boredom, frustration and think it's a waste of time and question whether it's worth it. Over time, the observer will gain distance from thoughts and feelings. 5. Once I felt a strong sense of an observer, there was *much* less attachment / identification with thoughts and feelings. Then, they were allowed to "just be" and could be observed without judgement or criticism. Insecurity was allowed to just be. Then the insights appear: hmmm, isn't it interesting the insecurity arises whenever XXX happens. The source of the insecurity may be revealed. Insecurity isn't "bad" anymore. 6. The next stage is learning about "your story" and your personality. All the different dynamics of your personality. It gets super interesting when the observer is no longer attached / identified as the personality. Over time, the ego is no longer the biggest show in town. . .

This is pretty much a description of my meditation state. Occasionally, there are "normal" thoughts in the background - yet they are far away in the distance. During self-inquiry a question like "what is genuine?" may arise. Then nonverbal impulses that arise. As you stated, I get pulled back out of it. I'd say I'm in this state about 30% of meditation time and 10% of "regular" life time. They started off as small "gaps" between thoughts and got longer and longer. I'd say this true nature presence is "continuous" for stretches of around 20-30min. several times a day. Do you recommend continuing self-inquiry to keep breaking the habit? Or is there a new technique appropriate for this stage? Also, do "you" still have "normal" thoughts that pass through your mind and there is awareness? I mean you are writing normal thoughts in this thread - is there just no attachment/identification with them?

To me, this sounds like uncomfortable parts of the awakening process. As the self dissolves there will be resistance. From what I've read and heard, periods of borderline insanity is not uncommon. I just waited it out - I didn't have any other choice. Eventually it dissipated, then returned, then dissipated. . . My path has involved depths of everything: love, peace, terror, sorrow, beauty, powerlessness. And all sorts of mixtures. It's been a rough ride. At least it's not boring - boredom is my kryptonite. During anxiety/panic episodes, I take a beak from psychedelics. The good news is that empathy will skyrocket for others with anxiety/panic/insanity disorders.

Hmmm, do you want to open up emotionally? Or do you want to remove emotions that you think are in the way of you feeling confident? If you want to open up emotionally, how about becoming friends with all of your emotions including: insecurity, empathy, vulnerability, tenderness, compassion, sadness, love, appreciation. For me, confidence is not something I create. That is fake confidence as you say. Real confidence comes with letting go of the ego and becoming comfortable experiencing and expressing all of your emotions and allowing others the space to express their emotions to you. In doing so, we can form meaningful human connections.

Is self inquiry thoughtless? Or just free of rational / logical thinking? As an aside. . . the shaman in an Aya retreat in Peru told us the same thing. If we have thoughts like that, drink another serving of Aya

@VioletFlame Wow!! That feels so hauntingly beautiful to me. Your voice is so unique. Do you ever do nonverbal singing?

At the core of materialism is assumptions. Perhaps challenge that assumption. Flip the script and ask a materialist: if mental states were not physiological reactions, what would that look like? Or. . . how could we create an immaterial world and fake people out to think it is material?

I can relate. At first I just experienced it during some trips. Afterwards I’d be relieved and think “Thank goodness *that* is over”. Then I started experiencing it while sober. For me, I think it boils down to my sense of self losing control of the narrative in my mind.

I’ve experienced something similar. A couple self inquiry questions I’ve found helpful: what is the source of the panic sensation? Can the panic energy be tranformed into curiosity energy?

I've also had anxiety / panic issues at the point of surrender. Aya surrender was more difficult than 5-meo surrender. Also, if I mentally prepare for a trip by creating an epic surrender battle it's more likely that's what will happen.

It seems all thoughts are interpretation. Tell me a thought that is not an interpretation. . .