Forestluv

@Nadosa Lisa Cairns helped me with my incomplete / fragmented inner experience. She teaches from the heart, not the head. That's what I needed at that time

@thehero @Azote As Leo mentioned in his video, it's challenging to navigate life when one has evolved to the high end of their community. For me, that means evolving into Yellow/Turquoise in a Orange/Green community. I'm at a small college and I've run out of colleagues at my level of development. It's just me now. There is no one here to discuss developing at Yellow/Turquoise. Everyone wants to be hyper analytical (philosophy and science), human expression (communication and art departments) or how to increase diversity and equality on campus. All Orange and Green stuff. There is noone here talking about how to incorporate Yellow/Turquoise modes of thinking / being into the curriculum (except for some shallow talk about "integrating" course material interdisciplinary). Very few college professors in the world are at this level. My whole life, there have been Orange and Green professors pulling me up the spiral. No I don't see any. I don't see any books or videos about how to become an effective Yellow/Turquoise college teacher. Not much on how to create a Yellow/Turquoise course and classroom environment. This semester I am developing / teaching a course on consciousness. I'm all alone. As I try to pull my colleagues up, some colleagues try to pull me back down. As Leo said in his video, they are like crabs in a bucket trying to pull me down. I meditate with my students in class. I teach nonduality. I integrate science and metaphysics. A few of my colleagues are intrigued. A few of my colleagues are like "wtf, pull that crab down!" Overall, it is a mixed experience. At times disappointment, frustration and uncertainty. Other times, it is exciting, empowering and magnificent.

I think you are placing a lot of emphasis on the delusions of Green. Of course there are delusions with Green - they are only slightly more evolved than Orange. A child passes through 4th grade to reach 6th grade. Teachers want to help both the 4th graders and 6th graders evolve upward into higher grades. High conscious teachers evaluate 4th graders in the context of how can we help them learn, expand and evolve upward toward 5th grade. Similarly, we evaluate 6th graders in a way to help them evolve upward to 7th grade. For each child, what are their deficiencies? What are their blocks? I don't think it's helpful compare the mindsets of 4th and 6th graders to determine which is "better". We don't say "Well, that 4th grader said something true. Prove to me that what the 4th grader said is false". Or: "That 6th grader didn't know a fact. 6th graders are delusional just like 4th graders". . . Children in each grade are at their own developmental level. In order to help a 4th grader advance to the next grade, we need to know what the developmental characteristics of the next grade are. Would we expect a 4th grader to immediately advance to the 12th grade? Of course not. Just because 5th graders have their own delusions and immaturities, doesn't mean we don't try to help them evolve one grade higher. Similarly, JP is a Blue/Orange 4th grader. Of course 4th graders know a few things. We are trying to help him to advance to 5th grade (upper Orange) and then to 6th grade (Green). Of course 5th graders (upper Orange) and 6th graders (Green) have misconceptions and immaturities. Yet, we can't advance a 4th grader at Blue/Orange straight to the 12th grade (Yellow). We would if we could. But we can't. The cognitive level of a 4th grader is incapable of understanding the perspectives of a 12th grader. Yet, JP goes beyond merely resisting the 5th grade. Not only is he a rebellious 4th grader, he is trying to interfere with other 4th graders from evolving toward the 6th grade. JP is happy to pull up 3rd graders to his 4th grade level, yet he wants to prevent his classmates from advancing on to the 5th grade. One of the missions for Tier2 beings is to recognize these blocks in Tier1 beings and help to relieve the blocks. A 5th grader (upper orange) cannot do it. A 6th grader (Green) cannot do it well - they are still too immature. It needs to come from highly mature individuals in Tier2. It doesn't help to point at the immaturity of 6th graders and say "See, they are immature too!! Just like the 4th graders!!". It doesn't help to say "4th graders say some true things, just like 6th graders!!". What helps is teaching 4th graders material so they can advance and teaching 6th graders material so they can advance. What helps is identifying the blocks a 4th grader has that interferes from learning this material. What helps is taking a meta view of all the grades and designing pedagogies that can help the evolution of children at each developmental stage. There is a tremendous amount of internal conflict within Tier1. Getting bogged down in comparing stages against each other is a distraction and just perpetuates the conflict. If we want to help 4th graders (blue/orange) mature, let's discuss their level of development and how we can help them mature. If we want to help 6th graders (Green) mature, let's discuss their level of development and how we can help them mature. JP is a 4th grader and has 4th grade issues, not 6th grade issues. And someone like Sam Seder is solid 6th grade (Green). Sam has 6th grade issues, not 4th grade or 8th grade issues. I would be happy to discuss Sam Seders blocks and how we might help him to evolve to Yellow. Yet, this thread is about 4th graders like JP, not 6th graders like Sam Seder. When the 4th and 6th grade children fight amongst themselves, Tier2 beings need to take a meta view and be a mature teacher / parent to help teach the children to mature. The Big Picture of SD is to help people develop - whatever stage they may be at. In this case, the burning question for Tier2 is: How can we help JP and his followers to develop to upper Orange? If we take an honest look, a huge part of the resistance is toward the next step (Green). A big part of why JP doesn't want to enter 5th grade is because he doesn't like 6th graders. To me, the solution is not to tell JP and his followers "Well, 4th graders have a lot of good things going on and 6th grade sucks in a lot of ways". That is just going to cause more resistance.

@Nadosa I've also experienced existential anxiety and panic during consciousness evolution. My ego has struggled to maintain control of the internal narrative in my mind. At times it felt like I was losing my mind. This ego was particularly afraid of the uncertainty of what might happen if it let go of control. It through out all sorts of scary ideas and images to hinder progress. Thoughts like "If you surrender to this 'whatever' you have no idea what could happen!! You could go insane, lose your job, harm other people. Don't go there!!" What helped me proceed was a realization that all of these thoughts of self, fear, anxiety, stories are *within* something much more expansive. Then, a curiosity began to arise. . . If thise self/ego is within something more expansive, what's in the expansiveness? Then a wonderful exploration can begin. It's not like the self has to surrender itself to some psychotic monster. What exists beyond the ego is more beautiful, magnificent and peaceful than anything the self could imagine.

This belief was a really big hurdle for me to get over. And I see it in others as well. This belief still assumes there is a "me". This belief is still from the perspective of a self/ego. Imagine that there was a rockslide near a highway that killed lots of people on a highway. Would we blame the mountain? Of course not. There is no "self" in the mountain to blame. Would we close the highway down and reinforce the mountain side so this doesn't occur again? Of course. Imagine there is a lion that escaped from it's zoo cage and killed several people. Would we blame the lion? Of course not. There is no "self" in the lion to blame. Would we close the zoo and reinforce the animal cages so this doesn't occur again? Of course. Imagine an armed teenager enters a school and kills several students. Would we blame the armed teenager? Of course not. There is no "self" in the armed teenager to blame. Would we remove the teenager from society so this doesn't occur again? Of course.

Yes, it is a different perspective. I'm more interested in the Big Picture. I'm more interested in the lens JP is wearing rather than dissecting the details of his individual claims. From this perspective, JPs lens is low consciousness and fundamentally flawed. In particular, that an objective moral law exists. What you are saying would also apply to someone with schizophrenia or someone tripping on a psychedelic. One could say these individuals have a distorted lens. Would having schizophrenia or tripping on psychedelics have any bearing on whether a claim is true or false? Does it only have bearing on interpretation and proposed solutions? Do schizophrenics and people tripping make some correct claims and miss the mark on proposed claims? Who is deciding which claims are "correct" and which "miss the mark"? Who decides what "the mark" even is? . . . This is part of the problem with Orange - they believe in an external objective moral reality. I think you are assuming that fundamental Blue/Orange mindsets are sane. A blue/orange egoic mindset is nearly at max delusion. It is insanity. Green and psychedelic mindstates are also delusional, yet less so than an egoic Blue/Orange. Yes, we can learn from delusional Blue/Orange mindsets. I'm more interested in the basis of delusional mindsets that are "mentally ill" in a sense. I think JP is a great example where we can observe the nuances of low conscious delusion. With this understanding, we can help people evolve up the spiral. That is one of the motivations of Tier2 - we want to help people to evolve up the spiral. JP is trying to prevent people from evolving upward beyond blue/orange. Understanding the basis of JPs motivation and why it resonates with so many people is an extremely important key to help society evolve higher. If we can dissolve that delusional barrier, society's upward evolution can proceed with less restrictions.

In hand movement studies (in which a participant touches a left or right lever), neuro-imaging can detect the participants choice before the participant is aware of their choice. If the "choice" is made before you are aware of the choice, who is the chooser?

Why is it applicable a squirrel does the "hard work" of collecting nuts in the autumn? Have you ever experienced a "flow state" in which your mind-body moved on it's own with no one in control? Perhaps while doing a sport like skiing or mountain biking - or playing a musical instrument. Where you were in the "zone" and afterwards thought "Whoa, who was playing that instrument?"

Orange can also be expressed as a shallow intellect stage as well - e.g. Richard Dawkins.

There are several paths through Orange. I disliked materialism as I passed through Orange. I was hooked on other Orange aspects: logic, reason, science, theories, debates.

@Outer One doesn’t abandon lessons learned from lower levels. Like 5th grade builds in 4th grade. You don’t aboandon everything you’ve learned from 4th grade. Their is a pendulum swing from a self-sacrificing orientation to a self-centered orientation. Back and forth. But not really abandoning JP isn’t misogynist / racist enough for red / low blue

Red / Lower Blue will not like JP.

@Matt8800 Yellow has transcended Orange AND Green. In addition, Yellow has advanced even higher with it’s own Yellow develop. It is much further advanced than Blue/Orange. It is like comparing a child from a small town to an adult that speaks four languages, has traveled around the world and has graduate degrees in art, mathematics and biology. Then, asking the child and adult to critique a High School system in a multiethnic area of New York City and write a proposal to increase ciricular effectiveness in a community in which less than half the population speaks fluent English. The child would propose free candy, games and long recess hours. Other children would cheer his proposal. To Yellow, JP has the conscious level of a child. He isn’t even close to transitioning into Green. He hasn’t embodied anything about Green. He doesn’t understand Green because he has not reached that level of development. He has a very limited perspective at his low level of development. Another analogy: it’s like asking a slave owner to write public policy for the ethical teatment of humans. This is incomprehensible to the slave owner. His level of development is too low. JP is only one conscious level higher than a slave owner (red/blue). JP’s level of development is too low to comprehend higher conscious perspectives. His mind is incapable of understanding Green and Yellow. He is not part of a higher conscious solution. He is part of a lower conscious problem that society is trying to evolve upward from. Yellow and Green are trying to pull upward. JP is trying to pull downward. He is part of the problem, not solution. Hiwever, JP can help raise Red and lower Blue up to high Blue/Orange.

@Wisebaxter Welcome. You are doing great work ??.

College professor in the sciences. I can integrate art, science, history, philosophy, psychology into my courses so it's great for Yellow level exploration. Yet, I get some pushback when I go Turquoise. My colleagues are starting to catch on that I am now a mystic and no longer a scientist.

For me, self-inquiry was not effective when I was strongly identified with a sense of self. It sounds like you have momentum with meditation and I would focus on the "observer + object" meditative stage. This is an enormous jump in consciousness. Life changing. You mentioned you like Spira and he has covered this stage in several of his videos (he calls it "enlightened duality"). When you are mediating and get lost in thoughts, are you able to recognize there is thinking? Perhaps you may think "Rats, lost in thought again. . . I need to return to my breath". This is an early step in recognizing the self. Who recognized that there was thinking? Something prior to the thoughts. Something closer to the real You. . . The next step is to be an "observer" to the thoughts. This is one step further than simply recognizing thoughts. When a thought arises, can you simply observe it and allow it to disappear? Can you wait for the next thought to arise, observe it and allow it to disappear? Imagine you are sitting on a riverbank and thoughts are logs. Can you sit on the riverbank in peace and allow the logs to float down the river? Even the gnarly ugly logs? . . . At first, you may get a glimpse of being an observer, yet the thoughts will feel strong and close. With time, you will get more and more distance. Then, it will feel like you really are an observer, just watching without judgement or criticism. Thoughts may arise but will be much weaker and distant. You will sit in peace, even if there are logs floating down the river. You will know from experience that you are not your thoughts. This direct experience knowing will be liberating. This can take a lot of practice because the self/ego wants You to believe You are thoughts.

Intellectualizing an inquiry is not self inquiry. If my mind went into intellectualizing "what is a thought" as described above, I would let go of it and try to reset. If the intellectualization returned, I would let go of the self inquiry and move in a different direction, perhaps just do vipassana meditation. Most recently, I've been working through the concept "formless is form". It's easy for my mind to get into an intellectual trap and try to figure out. So, I've been sitting with the self inquiry "What is form?". I actually don't even phrase it as a question, just "Form". (Phrasing it as a question can trigger my mind to try to figure out an answer.) Over the last week, I'm slowly starting to get it. To "see" it. Yet, I can't explain it in words. If it can't be explained in words, how can it be communicated to me in words during self-inquiry? Also, I think it is helpful to use a couple techniques in one's practice. It seems like you have a lot of momentum with your Vipassana meditation and I would go with that. Adding in some self-inquiry and contemplation may be great. Just be mindful if you start losing your Vipassana momentum. There is a lot to explore there and it sounds like you've hopped on that train. You may prefer contemplating questions with a journal. I think it's a bit more tangible and engaging. At 8:08 in the video below Leo explains contemplating "What is a thought"?

Yes. Green has a rudimentary understanding of subjectivism/relativism. For example, Green believes that gender identity is relative to the person, yet Green doesn't understand that that belief itself is relative to the Green person holding it. Yellow is so far above Orange that I don't think it's fair to compare the two in this context. The jump from Tier1 to Tier2 is greater than all of Tier 1 combined. It is a totally different mode of thinking and being. Yellow is infinitely more capable of exploring issues within Green than Orange.

There can be seeking energy to remove thoughts and enter what a mind thinks emptiness should look like. If a mind is very busy, there just isn't any space, it's like trying to meditate in a rock concert. I found it really helpful to relax my mind any way possible - yoga, listening to nonduality, running for 20min. etc. Once the mind is relaxed, thoughts will likely float by. See if you can be an observer to them and just let them go. We aren't bothered by an occasional bird chirp floating by, why be bothered by an occasional thought floating by? Trying to repress thoughts just makes it worse. For me, the imagery that "thoughts arise from the emptiness" was a key to progress. It is beautiful imagery and I think someone can go really far with that image. Eventually, there was awareness that thoughts and emptiness are one. That formless is form. I'm currently embodying this realization and it's taken a lot of work. IME, if the "thoughts arise from emptiness" resonates with you go for it. It is a huge step toward the Truth. With that imagery, one can sit in the emptiness and allow thoughts to arise and dissolve. This can do wonders to dissolve attachment and identification to thoughts. An exploration of the emptiness from which everything arises can lead to so many flavors of mystical experiences and insights. There can be words, images and intuition, but it isn't analysis or traditional thinking. For example, if I inquire "What is thought?" and start thinking "Well, a thought arises in the mind. A thought is associated with neurons. There are neurotransmitters that stimulate thoughts. . . " Leo did a great video on self inquiry which helped me a lot.

Yep. As well, I see some capitalism creeping into Green. Fancy yoga mats and outfits, crystals, wheatgrass shots, meditation apps, jewelry, a Prius, Berkenstock sandles etc. It can all be part of a Green Identity. Yet, one can't buy or sell a Yellow mindset and mode of being. It is beyond self identity and involves years of work, practice and direct experience that can't be bought or sold.

I'd say the combination of knowing about SD and wanting to evolve to Tier2 increases one's chance of reaching Tier2 by 100X.

Yes. Direct Experience is King. It is your greatest teacher. Generally, those new to meditation have minds highly conditioned to think. Once the mind slows down, the stillness can be boring and uncomfortable to a mind addicted to distractions. It sounds like you are beyond this stage and venturing into the New Frontier. . . Yes, chasing meditative states can be a trap. Yet isn't it nice for there to be something you want to chase? In the beginning, meditation feels so boring, uncomfortable, even painful - who wants to chase that? I would be careful about the belief that meditation is supposed to be about becoming "thoughtless". That is often a by product of meditation, but not a goal. The emptiness is present even when thoughts are present. The emptiness is like a container for everything that may arise during meditation, including thoughts. Great question on insights. Sometimes insights arise during meditation, sometimes not. If I am doing self inquiry and insights arise, I allow them to exist and observe them. For example, I may inquire "What is Love". Nonverbal insights may arise and I sit with them. Yet, I do not analyze. If my mind starts analyzing and theorizing about Love, I will change gears. During Vipassana meditation, I simply observe. If an insight arises, I don't get excited or start conceptualizing. If the insight is important, it will return after meditation - then I may write about it contemplatively.

@Wisebaxter The True You is enlightenment. It sounds like the mind is relaxing , which allows emptiness for insights to arise.

Nice insight. It's fun playing the "observer role" in life. Just observe with no beliefs or attachments. Fascinating.

I'd like to write a psychological thriller called "Escape From Nonduality". (spoiler alert: there is no escape).