Forestluv

This belief was a really big hurdle for me to get over. And I see it in others as well. This belief still assumes there is a "me". This belief is still from the perspective of a self/ego. Imagine that there was a rockslide near a highway that killed lots of people on a highway. Would we blame the mountain? Of course not. There is no "self" in the mountain to blame. Would we close the highway down and reinforce the mountain side so this doesn't occur again? Of course. Imagine there is a lion that escaped from it's zoo cage and killed several people. Would we blame the lion? Of course not. There is no "self" in the lion to blame. Would we close the zoo and reinforce the animal cages so this doesn't occur again? Of course. Imagine an armed teenager enters a school and kills several students. Would we blame the armed teenager? Of course not. There is no "self" in the armed teenager to blame. Would we remove the teenager from society so this doesn't occur again? Of course.

Yes, it is a different perspective. I'm more interested in the Big Picture. I'm more interested in the lens JP is wearing rather than dissecting the details of his individual claims. From this perspective, JPs lens is low consciousness and fundamentally flawed. In particular, that an objective moral law exists. What you are saying would also apply to someone with schizophrenia or someone tripping on a psychedelic. One could say these individuals have a distorted lens. Would having schizophrenia or tripping on psychedelics have any bearing on whether a claim is true or false? Does it only have bearing on interpretation and proposed solutions? Do schizophrenics and people tripping make some correct claims and miss the mark on proposed claims? Who is deciding which claims are "correct" and which "miss the mark"? Who decides what "the mark" even is? . . . This is part of the problem with Orange - they believe in an external objective moral reality. I think you are assuming that fundamental Blue/Orange mindsets are sane. A blue/orange egoic mindset is nearly at max delusion. It is insanity. Green and psychedelic mindstates are also delusional, yet less so than an egoic Blue/Orange. Yes, we can learn from delusional Blue/Orange mindsets. I'm more interested in the basis of delusional mindsets that are "mentally ill" in a sense. I think JP is a great example where we can observe the nuances of low conscious delusion. With this understanding, we can help people evolve up the spiral. That is one of the motivations of Tier2 - we want to help people to evolve up the spiral. JP is trying to prevent people from evolving upward beyond blue/orange. Understanding the basis of JPs motivation and why it resonates with so many people is an extremely important key to help society evolve higher. If we can dissolve that delusional barrier, society's upward evolution can proceed with less restrictions.

In hand movement studies (in which a participant touches a left or right lever), neuro-imaging can detect the participants choice before the participant is aware of their choice. If the "choice" is made before you are aware of the choice, who is the chooser?

Why is it applicable a squirrel does the "hard work" of collecting nuts in the autumn? Have you ever experienced a "flow state" in which your mind-body moved on it's own with no one in control? Perhaps while doing a sport like skiing or mountain biking - or playing a musical instrument. Where you were in the "zone" and afterwards thought "Whoa, who was playing that instrument?"

Orange can also be expressed as a shallow intellect stage as well - e.g. Richard Dawkins.

There are several paths through Orange. I disliked materialism as I passed through Orange. I was hooked on other Orange aspects: logic, reason, science, theories, debates.

@Outer One doesn’t abandon lessons learned from lower levels. Like 5th grade builds in 4th grade. You don’t aboandon everything you’ve learned from 4th grade. Their is a pendulum swing from a self-sacrificing orientation to a self-centered orientation. Back and forth. But not really abandoning JP isn’t misogynist / racist enough for red / low blue

Red / Lower Blue will not like JP.

@Matt8800 Yellow has transcended Orange AND Green. In addition, Yellow has advanced even higher with it’s own Yellow develop. It is much further advanced than Blue/Orange. It is like comparing a child from a small town to an adult that speaks four languages, has traveled around the world and has graduate degrees in art, mathematics and biology. Then, asking the child and adult to critique a High School system in a multiethnic area of New York City and write a proposal to increase ciricular effectiveness in a community in which less than half the population speaks fluent English. The child would propose free candy, games and long recess hours. Other children would cheer his proposal. To Yellow, JP has the conscious level of a child. He isn’t even close to transitioning into Green. He hasn’t embodied anything about Green. He doesn’t understand Green because he has not reached that level of development. He has a very limited perspective at his low level of development. Another analogy: it’s like asking a slave owner to write public policy for the ethical teatment of humans. This is incomprehensible to the slave owner. His level of development is too low. JP is only one conscious level higher than a slave owner (red/blue). JP’s level of development is too low to comprehend higher conscious perspectives. His mind is incapable of understanding Green and Yellow. He is not part of a higher conscious solution. He is part of a lower conscious problem that society is trying to evolve upward from. Yellow and Green are trying to pull upward. JP is trying to pull downward. He is part of the problem, not solution. Hiwever, JP can help raise Red and lower Blue up to high Blue/Orange.

@Wisebaxter Welcome. You are doing great work ??.

College professor in the sciences. I can integrate art, science, history, philosophy, psychology into my courses so it's great for Yellow level exploration. Yet, I get some pushback when I go Turquoise. My colleagues are starting to catch on that I am now a mystic and no longer a scientist.

For me, self-inquiry was not effective when I was strongly identified with a sense of self. It sounds like you have momentum with meditation and I would focus on the "observer + object" meditative stage. This is an enormous jump in consciousness. Life changing. You mentioned you like Spira and he has covered this stage in several of his videos (he calls it "enlightened duality"). When you are mediating and get lost in thoughts, are you able to recognize there is thinking? Perhaps you may think "Rats, lost in thought again. . . I need to return to my breath". This is an early step in recognizing the self. Who recognized that there was thinking? Something prior to the thoughts. Something closer to the real You. . . The next step is to be an "observer" to the thoughts. This is one step further than simply recognizing thoughts. When a thought arises, can you simply observe it and allow it to disappear? Can you wait for the next thought to arise, observe it and allow it to disappear? Imagine you are sitting on a riverbank and thoughts are logs. Can you sit on the riverbank in peace and allow the logs to float down the river? Even the gnarly ugly logs? . . . At first, you may get a glimpse of being an observer, yet the thoughts will feel strong and close. With time, you will get more and more distance. Then, it will feel like you really are an observer, just watching without judgement or criticism. Thoughts may arise but will be much weaker and distant. You will sit in peace, even if there are logs floating down the river. You will know from experience that you are not your thoughts. This direct experience knowing will be liberating. This can take a lot of practice because the self/ego wants You to believe You are thoughts.

Intellectualizing an inquiry is not self inquiry. If my mind went into intellectualizing "what is a thought" as described above, I would let go of it and try to reset. If the intellectualization returned, I would let go of the self inquiry and move in a different direction, perhaps just do vipassana meditation. Most recently, I've been working through the concept "formless is form". It's easy for my mind to get into an intellectual trap and try to figure out. So, I've been sitting with the self inquiry "What is form?". I actually don't even phrase it as a question, just "Form". (Phrasing it as a question can trigger my mind to try to figure out an answer.) Over the last week, I'm slowly starting to get it. To "see" it. Yet, I can't explain it in words. If it can't be explained in words, how can it be communicated to me in words during self-inquiry? Also, I think it is helpful to use a couple techniques in one's practice. It seems like you have a lot of momentum with your Vipassana meditation and I would go with that. Adding in some self-inquiry and contemplation may be great. Just be mindful if you start losing your Vipassana momentum. There is a lot to explore there and it sounds like you've hopped on that train. You may prefer contemplating questions with a journal. I think it's a bit more tangible and engaging. At 8:08 in the video below Leo explains contemplating "What is a thought"?

Yes. Green has a rudimentary understanding of subjectivism/relativism. For example, Green believes that gender identity is relative to the person, yet Green doesn't understand that that belief itself is relative to the Green person holding it. Yellow is so far above Orange that I don't think it's fair to compare the two in this context. The jump from Tier1 to Tier2 is greater than all of Tier 1 combined. It is a totally different mode of thinking and being. Yellow is infinitely more capable of exploring issues within Green than Orange.

There can be seeking energy to remove thoughts and enter what a mind thinks emptiness should look like. If a mind is very busy, there just isn't any space, it's like trying to meditate in a rock concert. I found it really helpful to relax my mind any way possible - yoga, listening to nonduality, running for 20min. etc. Once the mind is relaxed, thoughts will likely float by. See if you can be an observer to them and just let them go. We aren't bothered by an occasional bird chirp floating by, why be bothered by an occasional thought floating by? Trying to repress thoughts just makes it worse. For me, the imagery that "thoughts arise from the emptiness" was a key to progress. It is beautiful imagery and I think someone can go really far with that image. Eventually, there was awareness that thoughts and emptiness are one. That formless is form. I'm currently embodying this realization and it's taken a lot of work. IME, if the "thoughts arise from emptiness" resonates with you go for it. It is a huge step toward the Truth. With that imagery, one can sit in the emptiness and allow thoughts to arise and dissolve. This can do wonders to dissolve attachment and identification to thoughts. An exploration of the emptiness from which everything arises can lead to so many flavors of mystical experiences and insights. There can be words, images and intuition, but it isn't analysis or traditional thinking. For example, if I inquire "What is thought?" and start thinking "Well, a thought arises in the mind. A thought is associated with neurons. There are neurotransmitters that stimulate thoughts. . . " Leo did a great video on self inquiry which helped me a lot.

Yep. As well, I see some capitalism creeping into Green. Fancy yoga mats and outfits, crystals, wheatgrass shots, meditation apps, jewelry, a Prius, Berkenstock sandles etc. It can all be part of a Green Identity. Yet, one can't buy or sell a Yellow mindset and mode of being. It is beyond self identity and involves years of work, practice and direct experience that can't be bought or sold.

I'd say the combination of knowing about SD and wanting to evolve to Tier2 increases one's chance of reaching Tier2 by 100X.

Yes. Direct Experience is King. It is your greatest teacher. Generally, those new to meditation have minds highly conditioned to think. Once the mind slows down, the stillness can be boring and uncomfortable to a mind addicted to distractions. It sounds like you are beyond this stage and venturing into the New Frontier. . . Yes, chasing meditative states can be a trap. Yet isn't it nice for there to be something you want to chase? In the beginning, meditation feels so boring, uncomfortable, even painful - who wants to chase that? I would be careful about the belief that meditation is supposed to be about becoming "thoughtless". That is often a by product of meditation, but not a goal. The emptiness is present even when thoughts are present. The emptiness is like a container for everything that may arise during meditation, including thoughts. Great question on insights. Sometimes insights arise during meditation, sometimes not. If I am doing self inquiry and insights arise, I allow them to exist and observe them. For example, I may inquire "What is Love". Nonverbal insights may arise and I sit with them. Yet, I do not analyze. If my mind starts analyzing and theorizing about Love, I will change gears. During Vipassana meditation, I simply observe. If an insight arises, I don't get excited or start conceptualizing. If the insight is important, it will return after meditation - then I may write about it contemplatively.

@Wisebaxter The True You is enlightenment. It sounds like the mind is relaxing , which allows emptiness for insights to arise.

Nice insight. It's fun playing the "observer role" in life. Just observe with no beliefs or attachments. Fascinating.

I'd like to write a psychological thriller called "Escape From Nonduality". (spoiler alert: there is no escape).

Logic is within nonduality (as is everything). From a Tier1 perspective, nonduality appears to be beyond logic.

At the human level, what "matters" is highly subjective and is not universal. I suppose one could argue that a subjective sense that something "matters" is universal at the human level. Yet, this would depend on one's definition of "matters". Yet, even if we agree that every human has some sense that something "matters", what that is would not be universal.

This sounds like some Ayn Rand Orange-level stuff with some Green sprinkled in. From a logical perspective, it is not even in the same ballpark as nonduality.