Forestluv

@Wisebaxter Welcome. You are doing great work ??.

College professor in the sciences. I can integrate art, science, history, philosophy, psychology into my courses so it's great for Yellow level exploration. Yet, I get some pushback when I go Turquoise. My colleagues are starting to catch on that I am now a mystic and no longer a scientist.

For me, self-inquiry was not effective when I was strongly identified with a sense of self. It sounds like you have momentum with meditation and I would focus on the "observer + object" meditative stage. This is an enormous jump in consciousness. Life changing. You mentioned you like Spira and he has covered this stage in several of his videos (he calls it "enlightened duality"). When you are mediating and get lost in thoughts, are you able to recognize there is thinking? Perhaps you may think "Rats, lost in thought again. . . I need to return to my breath". This is an early step in recognizing the self. Who recognized that there was thinking? Something prior to the thoughts. Something closer to the real You. . . The next step is to be an "observer" to the thoughts. This is one step further than simply recognizing thoughts. When a thought arises, can you simply observe it and allow it to disappear? Can you wait for the next thought to arise, observe it and allow it to disappear? Imagine you are sitting on a riverbank and thoughts are logs. Can you sit on the riverbank in peace and allow the logs to float down the river? Even the gnarly ugly logs? . . . At first, you may get a glimpse of being an observer, yet the thoughts will feel strong and close. With time, you will get more and more distance. Then, it will feel like you really are an observer, just watching without judgement or criticism. Thoughts may arise but will be much weaker and distant. You will sit in peace, even if there are logs floating down the river. You will know from experience that you are not your thoughts. This direct experience knowing will be liberating. This can take a lot of practice because the self/ego wants You to believe You are thoughts.

Intellectualizing an inquiry is not self inquiry. If my mind went into intellectualizing "what is a thought" as described above, I would let go of it and try to reset. If the intellectualization returned, I would let go of the self inquiry and move in a different direction, perhaps just do vipassana meditation. Most recently, I've been working through the concept "formless is form". It's easy for my mind to get into an intellectual trap and try to figure out. So, I've been sitting with the self inquiry "What is form?". I actually don't even phrase it as a question, just "Form". (Phrasing it as a question can trigger my mind to try to figure out an answer.) Over the last week, I'm slowly starting to get it. To "see" it. Yet, I can't explain it in words. If it can't be explained in words, how can it be communicated to me in words during self-inquiry? Also, I think it is helpful to use a couple techniques in one's practice. It seems like you have a lot of momentum with your Vipassana meditation and I would go with that. Adding in some self-inquiry and contemplation may be great. Just be mindful if you start losing your Vipassana momentum. There is a lot to explore there and it sounds like you've hopped on that train. You may prefer contemplating questions with a journal. I think it's a bit more tangible and engaging. At 8:08 in the video below Leo explains contemplating "What is a thought"?

Yes. Green has a rudimentary understanding of subjectivism/relativism. For example, Green believes that gender identity is relative to the person, yet Green doesn't understand that that belief itself is relative to the Green person holding it. Yellow is so far above Orange that I don't think it's fair to compare the two in this context. The jump from Tier1 to Tier2 is greater than all of Tier 1 combined. It is a totally different mode of thinking and being. Yellow is infinitely more capable of exploring issues within Green than Orange.

There can be seeking energy to remove thoughts and enter what a mind thinks emptiness should look like. If a mind is very busy, there just isn't any space, it's like trying to meditate in a rock concert. I found it really helpful to relax my mind any way possible - yoga, listening to nonduality, running for 20min. etc. Once the mind is relaxed, thoughts will likely float by. See if you can be an observer to them and just let them go. We aren't bothered by an occasional bird chirp floating by, why be bothered by an occasional thought floating by? Trying to repress thoughts just makes it worse. For me, the imagery that "thoughts arise from the emptiness" was a key to progress. It is beautiful imagery and I think someone can go really far with that image. Eventually, there was awareness that thoughts and emptiness are one. That formless is form. I'm currently embodying this realization and it's taken a lot of work. IME, if the "thoughts arise from emptiness" resonates with you go for it. It is a huge step toward the Truth. With that imagery, one can sit in the emptiness and allow thoughts to arise and dissolve. This can do wonders to dissolve attachment and identification to thoughts. An exploration of the emptiness from which everything arises can lead to so many flavors of mystical experiences and insights. There can be words, images and intuition, but it isn't analysis or traditional thinking. For example, if I inquire "What is thought?" and start thinking "Well, a thought arises in the mind. A thought is associated with neurons. There are neurotransmitters that stimulate thoughts. . . " Leo did a great video on self inquiry which helped me a lot.

Yep. As well, I see some capitalism creeping into Green. Fancy yoga mats and outfits, crystals, wheatgrass shots, meditation apps, jewelry, a Prius, Berkenstock sandles etc. It can all be part of a Green Identity. Yet, one can't buy or sell a Yellow mindset and mode of being. It is beyond self identity and involves years of work, practice and direct experience that can't be bought or sold.

I'd say the combination of knowing about SD and wanting to evolve to Tier2 increases one's chance of reaching Tier2 by 100X.

Yes. Direct Experience is King. It is your greatest teacher. Generally, those new to meditation have minds highly conditioned to think. Once the mind slows down, the stillness can be boring and uncomfortable to a mind addicted to distractions. It sounds like you are beyond this stage and venturing into the New Frontier. . . Yes, chasing meditative states can be a trap. Yet isn't it nice for there to be something you want to chase? In the beginning, meditation feels so boring, uncomfortable, even painful - who wants to chase that? I would be careful about the belief that meditation is supposed to be about becoming "thoughtless". That is often a by product of meditation, but not a goal. The emptiness is present even when thoughts are present. The emptiness is like a container for everything that may arise during meditation, including thoughts. Great question on insights. Sometimes insights arise during meditation, sometimes not. If I am doing self inquiry and insights arise, I allow them to exist and observe them. For example, I may inquire "What is Love". Nonverbal insights may arise and I sit with them. Yet, I do not analyze. If my mind starts analyzing and theorizing about Love, I will change gears. During Vipassana meditation, I simply observe. If an insight arises, I don't get excited or start conceptualizing. If the insight is important, it will return after meditation - then I may write about it contemplatively.

@Wisebaxter The True You is enlightenment. It sounds like the mind is relaxing , which allows emptiness for insights to arise.

Nice insight. It's fun playing the "observer role" in life. Just observe with no beliefs or attachments. Fascinating.

I'd like to write a psychological thriller called "Escape From Nonduality". (spoiler alert: there is no escape).

Logic is within nonduality (as is everything). From a Tier1 perspective, nonduality appears to be beyond logic.

At the human level, what "matters" is highly subjective and is not universal. I suppose one could argue that a subjective sense that something "matters" is universal at the human level. Yet, this would depend on one's definition of "matters". Yet, even if we agree that every human has some sense that something "matters", what that is would not be universal.

This sounds like some Ayn Rand Orange-level stuff with some Green sprinkled in. From a logical perspective, it is not even in the same ballpark as nonduality.

There are "mega threads" on each Spiral Stage. The first post in the thread includes a list of people in that Stage. The remaining posts include videos of people in that stage. You can do a forum search or a Google search to find them.

Very nice! I think this points at "Everything / Nothing". It seems so simple to the mind, yet it is oh so sneaky. Everything really, really, really means everything. So, there is "no thing" to let go of. There is no thing that can be separate from Everything. Everything includes all thoughts, desires to let go of thoughts, desires to let go of trying to let go and on and on. . . Whatever is happening is within Everything. There are no exceptions.

The brain and a concept of a brain arise *within* consciousness. That's why current scientists won't discover it. They make the reverse assumption (that consciousness arises within the brain).

For some Greens, yes. Do a google video search with key words like equality, unconscious biases, egalitarianism, disadvantaged students, gender equality, equal rights and cultural taxation. There are thousands of videos on equality that millions of Greens watch. Blue and Orange would have zero interest in these videos and likely don't know they exist. Plus, their youtube algorithms would only pull up Blue/Orange vs. Green in which Blue/Orange appeared to "win".

Looks like I misinterpreted. Thanks for the clarity. For this, I would say psychedelics are nearly guaranteed to create a nondual experience. It is also a "fast track" in a sense. And I would agree that many seekers will want to use psychedelics as a tool over time - perhaps one trip per month for a while. The risk of dependency/addiction would be low tho.

Oooh. . . Turquoise-Yellow food for the spirit. How tasty

@Omni It can't really be quantified as a science. A person is a mixture of levels for different developmental lines. Most people look at the criteria and like to overestimate themselves (the Kruger-Dunning effect). E.g. most Orange people will see the higher cognitive sophistication in Yellow and label themself as Yellow. Instead, I find it more helpful to simply observe myself. What type of videos resonate with me know? Do Orange level debates with Richard Dawkins resonate with me? Do documentaries about marginalized groups and how to promote equality resonate? Do videos about intuition, empathy, and the integration of science/art resonate? As well, what type of conversations am I attracted to? Are my conversations transactional and include debate (Orange level) or are my conversations about exploring new ideas and frontiers. Am I motivated to meet personal needs (Tier 1) or am I motivated to participate, explore and discover the magnificence of reality and life? And Yellow does not *reject* Green. Yellow transcends and embodies Green. Image Green as a handsaw and Yellow as a chainsaw. Yellow can use a handsaw when appropriate and a chainsaw when appropriate.

Friday is what an Orange orgy looks like!!

@shermano667 I've done it many times. Great stuff. Very similar to mushrooms. The legality depends on the country. Some countries don't shedule it as illegal and technically is legal for "research purposes only". I live in the U.S. and I act as if it is quasi-legal. I would order from a source that sends generic looking packages and I am mindful when traveling with 4-Aco on my person.