Forestluv

My ego prefers to call it personal development ?

Perhaps we should add warning labels: “Warning: Rabbit Hole ahead. Hazardous to ego.” ?

Rabbit Hole alert!!! ???

Direct Experience is King, yet pointers are helpful.

@VioletFlame I think it depends on the context. In Tier2, the self has been mostly transcended. A Tier2 being sees the bigger picture that this illusory self is within something much more expansive. There isn’t a strong identification to beliefs and perspectives. Someone at Tier2 is not attached to being identified as “I am Yellow”. They are comfortable with the notion that there are Yellow/Turquoise level concepts and experiences that arise, yet no “me” to take ownership. Yet, when communicating with people at Blue/Orange level development, Tier2 concepts and language are misunderstood. It can cause confusion, frustration and even conflict in the person. A Tier2 being is very good at going with the flow of relativity and can “meet a person where they are at”. If a Blue/Orange person asked what my experience of being a Yellow level thinker at my job is like - I would speak as if I identify as Yellow. And then, if Turqoise beings were conversing about the relative nature of Yellow which takes form as formless nothingness, identification with Yellow is dissolved. I think the key is whether they are conscious that they are identifying with a stage for ease of conversation and can let go of identification when appropriate. Or, is the person attached to the identification and can’t let go. That type of egoic attachment is a delusional trap. And it gets sneakier as one evolves up the spiral. I’ve had to face it many times. Each time I entered a new stage, there was some sense of egoic attachment with identifying with that stage.

Tony Robbins throws in some Orange spirituality in his personal development courses. Orange spirituality is often focused on personal achievement. For example, participating in mediation to increase one’s attention and focus skills so they can be more productive and successful at work - and outcompete the other guy.

That can appear as both scary and liberating to an ego. A push-pull dynamic.

When I focus with my lleft side, it moves. When I balance my vision, it’s still. Tripp’s dippy!

@lmfao I love me some old school Turqoise. Watts is like a master musician of classic jazz.

@Strikr Ahh, yes. Isn’t it nice to be able to sit with paradoxical concepts in peace? I used to try to figure everything out to find what is the “right” concept. It caused so much suffering

Ok. Does curiosity and learning exist? it seems like you are guiding seekers from the relative to the absolute.

It seems science is currently Orange-centered. As we evolve up the spiral, I’m looking forward to the emergence of Green science and Yellow science to become mainstream.

I’m speaking from a meta view of Green perspective. Orange, Green, Yellow and Turquoise will have different perspectives on race. Just because I state a Green perspective or value, or what might help an Orange to Green transition, doesn’t mean that I believe or identify with the perspective. I simply see it as a view within a relative world. If I am speaking to Orange, I don’t communicate through a Turquoise lens. Green perceives race. Multiculturalism and racial equality are two of their highest values! And dating outside one’s race is *one* way an Orange mind can expand to see new perspectives and transition into Green. I know this conceptually and from direct experience. There are many other ways as well. A geneticist would see race differently. They would view race via allelic frequencies. A different perspective.

Is the mind curious? Does it explore and learn new things in a relative world?

That is beautiful imagery. And I find it empowering to continue on a challenging journey. ♥️ ?

It sounds like you built yourself another perspective. Nothing wrong with that. It’s the name of the game. If you grow tired of that one, move on to the next one, then the next, then the next. . . Your perspectives will get more integrated and deep. These are all relative perspectives that arise from one absolute. There is no one “correct” perspective to be found. They keep evolving from the One Absolute. It never ends. Don’t get attached or grasp in to any of them - that would cause suffering.

@Kaity Psychedelic expands one’s mind. In terms of mind expansion, I don’t think HSP is an advantage or disadvantage. They might need a lower dose or a trip sitter for support. I imagine that more significant factors would likely be sincerity, humility and open-mindedness.

No. Tribalism is not “left” or “right” in the SD model.

You can create a broader grouping of tribalism if you like. That would be like saying there are expessions of purple/blue within Green. Or, one could say there is a phenomena called “tribalism” or “community” that is expressed at each level. This would be like saying the phenomena of “religion” iccurs at each stage. It is just the expression if the phenoena that looks different at each stage. I.e. Blue religion is expressed differently than Green religion. I like prefer the latter, to create levels if a phenomena - let’s say a sense of community. Purple to lower blue is such a small contracted expression if community that I would call it tribal - to distinguish it as a rudimentary form of community. Upper blue to upper Green has a more mature, expansive view of community. Green- level community is *much* more expansive than Purple, Red or Blue. At Green level, we are talking about soneone who has done things like: lived in a variety of communities, including low income; has lived within communities in foreign countries; has learned a foreign language to expand their ability to make more diverse human connections, has been in inter-racial relationships, has volunteered for people in poverty, addictions, mental illness. Has meditation and yoga communities. A solid Green level is actually a network of dozens of communities - so by defintion they cannot be tribal. Purple/red/blue is contracted within a single community - a tribe. Green is too multi-community to be tribal. They can be arrogant, rude, angry, and judgmental - yet their sense of community is still much mire expansive than lower stages. I would call it something like a “distorted multi-community” mindset - not tribalism.

@Speedscarlet There are a lot of great communities in Detroit. I’ve met so many really good people here. You are welcome to visit. I think your perspective might change.

@Yarco Cultural immersion did wonders for me.

To see the value of Orange, let's back up the truck and look where Orange evolved from. . . Stage Blue has "either / or" thinking. "Good / Bad" thinking. They don't see shades of grey. A Blue person sees each person as "Good" or "Bad". An Orange person can see that people are not all "Good" or all "Bad". A person could have some Good traits and some bad traits. A person could be mostly Good, yet have some Bad habits they need to do some self improvement on. I would say that is an upgrade. A Blue person typically imagines a god in the sky that is the authority on morality. For example, whatever the Bible says is moral authority. If you disobey the Bible or don't believe in the Bible, you are a sinner and you might go to hell. A healthy Orange person thinks "Hey, wait a minute. Not all of the stuff in the Bible makes sense. It was written by Bronze age men thousands of years ago. They didn't know much then. Maybe they did their best to record the message of Jesus, but misinterpreted a few things. And maybe over the years, a few things got misinterpreted. Maybe the Bible contains some good lessons and some bad lessons. If that is true, maybe the Koran also has some good lessons and bad lessons. Maybe Buddhism has some good lessons.". I would say that is an upgrade. Blue believes that the purpose of life is to sacrifice one's life to god, so that they can go to heaven and avoid going to hell. As well, they often believe that if other people don't follow their god, then they will go to hell. An Orange person is like "Wait a minute, how can we be sure there is a heaven and hell? Is there any evidence that a heaven or hell exists? Maybe it's better to to live this life I have to my best ability. Maybe I should do a personal improvement workshop so I can develop skills to be successful". I would say that is an upgrade. Each stage has a series of upgrades. It's like upgrading software from 1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0 etc.

Exactly. That is the point. Blue/Orange has not reached a developmental stage in which they can comprehend Green-level community (such as a Bernie Sanders community). The developmental level of Blue/Orange only allows them to perceive communities as Blue and below. Therefore they are unable to make a distinction between Green level communities (such as Bernie Sanders) and Red/Blue level communities (Trump tribalism). They will both look similar. One needs to evolve to stage Green to understand the difference. This isn't a question of "Left" or "Right". There is very little tribalism in Green. Green has evolved beyond that. Occasionally extreme unhealthy Green that pops up that appears similar to Blue level tribalism. Similarly, occasionally extreme unhealthy Orange pops up that appears similar to Red. For example, an extreme corporate manager that threatens to kill a competitor.

In Tier1, each stage includes people that will demonize people in other stages. Stage Red will demonize Blue and vice-versa. Are unhealthy Blue expressions a good reason for Red to stay Red? For example, Blue highly values rules and laws. Sometimes Blue swings to an extreme and creates laws that are too strict. Is that a good reason for Red to say "See!!! Laws are repressive!! Laws are bad!!! No more Laws!!! Anarchy is better!!!"? Of course not. It would be better for Red to evolve into a healthy Blue and recognize the value of laws in society. Once the person has entered Blue, how can they promote Blue to become healthier? Similarly, some people in stage Blue/Orange will demonize Green and vice-versa. Sometimes Green swings to an extreme and may discriminate against white people. Is that a good reason for Blue/Orange to say "See!!! Multiculturalism is discriminatory!!! Inclusion is discriminatory!!! Equality is discrimination in disguise!!! Segregation and tribalism is better!!!" Of course not. It would be better for Blue/Orange to evolve into healthy Green and recognize the value of multiculturalism, inclusion and equality in society. Once the person has entered Green, how can they promote Green to be even healthier?

This is a great point that we might be able to connect to Wilber's "pre/trans" fallacy. Orange see themselves as "rational" and Red/Blue as irrational. Yet, Orange cannot yet comprehend post-rational at Green/Yellow levels. Thus, Orange sees anything non-rational as being irrational. For example, Orange see Turquoise-level mysticism as irrational nonsense characteristic of Purple and Blue. Similarly, Orange cannot comprehend the higher level Green communities. To Orange, it appears like Red/Blue tribalism communities. For example, Orange may be unable to make a distinction between Red/Blue Trump tribalism and Green Bernie Sanders communities.