Forestluv

What you have been writing has not raised any thoughts in my mind regarding traps or delusion.

That's not what is being pointing to. There seems to be focus on the pointer, not what is being pointed to. . .

Sometimes it seems people on the forum get immersed into their story of ideas. The statement "self hates to accumulate and cling to ideas", is also true. The statement "self loves to get rid of and let go of ideas" is also true.

That is a key question to contemplate

Could that be false?

Do you believe that? Could that be false?

Yes. It is easy to see in others. Much more difficult to see in one's own self. One's own self tends to believe it's own ideas about self, thoughts, movements through time etc.

I find writing poetry to be a method to express nonlinear post-logical modes of being. I used to think it silly and a waste of time. I now see and feel it's beauty.

Would you have the understanding that a self was pursuing ideas it presents in this thread? Ideas of self, thoughts, movements in time etc. are all being entertained by a self component that has yet to be realized?

The "observer + object" duality dissolves. Rupert Spira uses a model of these stages in a few of his videos.

There are a variety of pointers. The "Everything / Nothing" pointer is commonly used by nonduality teachers. It can be a really strong pointer for some minds. It is related to understanding distinctions. It's hard to place no-self awakenings and Everything/Nothing awakenings on a relative hierarchy or linear timeline. I've had partial awakenings to no-self and Everything/Nothing. The deepest glimpse I've had was Mu - which is prior to any concepts or ideas of no-self or self.

It sounds like your capacity of love is expanding - pushing against previous boundaries. I've found the sensation to be both beautiful and uncomfortable.

The "observer + object" stage is more advanced than a self-identified stage. Yet, "observer + object" is an intermediate stage. It goes much deeper.

@Mezanti Absolute Enlightenment is not dependent on circumstances. It is present during pain, love, laughter, running from a lion, eating a meal, getting in a car accident, watching a leaf fall, typing a post on a forum etc.

You have likely had glimpses of this. Have you ever been in a mental flow state in which there was no “you”? Perhaps skiing, mountain biking or creating art. How did it flow? Much better without “you” messing things up - worrying about stuff, how good you look etc. Try doing the yoga “Tree” posture. Get good enough so you can do it effortlessly and you are one mind-body without thought. Now start thinking about yourself, your day, how impressed everyone will be with your yoga posture etc. What happens? You’ll fall down. The mind-body is highly sophisticated - it doesn’t need a sense of an illusory self to operate.

Ahhh, so interesting. You are approaching Green from a different direction than I. A couple ideas are arising in my mind. . . Perhaps it might be beneficial to seek out "healthy Green" - those that are not dogmatic. There are plenty of ideological Greens that will want to debate with Orange. Rather than hot political debates, perhaps explore Green values on human connection, love, sexuality, creativity, intuition. Also, exploring Green modes of being does not mean you reject Orange modes of being. Green is an expansion of Orange. For example, a healthy Green can still use logic and reason when appropriate. Yet, now they are skillful at using moral relativism, compassion, empathy, creativity and basic non-linear logic. You are viewing Green as being irrational like Blue is irrational. Yet, Green becomes post-rational. Part of the reason I got burned out on Orange was that I was analyzing and logical all the time. I was a walking logical thinking head. At school, with family, with my girlfriend etc. Eventually, I yearned for *real* human connections. I wanted to expand my capacity to love and participate with others. To expand my sense of community. Green has levels of emotional and spiritual depth, Orange cannot imagine.

@Brittany Thank you. I've been looking for examples of Yellow stage women. She is great. That seems like an Orange perspective of what it imagines Yellow to be like. Tier1 is "anti" other Tier1 stages. Tier1 stages demonize each other. Tier2 has transcended and embodied Tier1. Tier2 is not "anti" any stage in Tier1, they no longer demonize other stages. What you are saying is like saying: "College is the rebellion against the 4th grade, like how 4th graders rebelled against 3rd graders. A college student is like a 6th grade brat that throws a temper tantrum because they can't have a piece of candy. So, real college students can be aggressively ant-4th grade. If it's what a 4th grader says, then it must be wrong". This is the perspective of what a 3rd grader imagines 5th grade will be like. College students are soooo much more mature and developed than this. Similarly, Yellow is much more mature and advanced than you are imagining.

That is a huge observation and a major key. One metaphor I like is that a person is at a concert and all they can see are that the restrooms are messy and smell bad. They are missing the beauty of the music, the beauty of the dancing, the beauty of interpersonal connections, deeper levels of love and joy. I was a hardcore scientist with major resistance against many aspects of Green. One thing that helped my transition was to learn Spanish and live within villages in Central and South America. I know this may not be feasible for many people, yet that direct experience was extremely powerful. It helped shatter my existing paradigm. Sometimes, a seeker needs to be willing to seek the Truth at any cost. What that looks like can vary.

@SoonHei You are still seeing duality in "Everything". I.e. parts within a whole. A helpful step for me was. . . If there is One Everything, there cannot be any thing. So, Everything equals No Thing. That got me to a transitional state. I'm still embodying the depth of Everything = Nothing. Form = Formless. It goes much deeper than I had imagined.

At the human level, I would say: to value letting go of attachments and personal identifications.

First, I find it interesting that you used the term "legitimacy". Generally, that term is used to mean to defend a viewpoint with logic and justification. An answer based on logic / justification is at an Orange level. This will likely trigger the Orange within you and put your self into a defensive debate posture. This will reinforce and trap someone at this stage of conscious development. Orange people stay trapped in this stage because they want/ expect "facts, evidence, reason and logic". They will debate and argue at this level for years and years and years. . . To reach a higher conscious stage, you will need to let go of your desire for what you consider to be "facts, evidence and logic". You would need to go post-logical. This is extremely difficult at this stage of development because the higher stages look irrational and "woo woo". And there are no "guarantees" that the next stage isn't a bunch of bullshit. Who wants to get taken for a fool? IMO, your question will likely trigger an objectivist viewpoint. I would put all my effort into learning and embodying relativism and nonlogical modes of being - which is a stage further along than objectivism. The topic you choose is unimportant. The mode of being is important. Be an observer to your self. Notice how your self is attached to ideas. Notice how your self is "safe in it's head". Notice how the mind wants to analyze and be logical. It has nothing to do with populism itself. It has to do with how the mind holds ideas about populism.

In terms of Leo's Ox video, you are seeing the tracks of the Ox. Don't give up. Once you "see" the Ox in your direct experience, it will rock your world.

@Shakazulu At this stage, it might be helpful to contemplate "Everything / Nothing". If you imagine Everything, there is ONE Everything. There is no thing. Any thing you imagine is within Everything. So Everything = No Thing = Nothing. At early stages, the concept of "Everything" seems overly simplistic and is overlooked and dismissed. Yet at intermediate stages, it becomes deeply profound. Some of my most uncomfortable realizations were facing "Everything / Nothing", through direct experience. Understanding and embodying Everything / Nothing is an enormous step forward along the path IME. To integrate this with Nahm's comment: Any thing you imagine is within Everything. So any image isn't It. It is unimaginable. Everything really really really means Everything.

@Butters "Those who hear not the music think the dancers mad"

That is beautiful @Seiden And I second the sentiment. That is one of the highest quality spiritual teachings I’ve seen.