Forestluv

@SOUL It's seems like you have had some awakenings of the simplicity of being in the present moment. From that vantage point, all the seeking, intellectualizing, theories, debates about enlightenment appear as irrelevant and a distraction. Everything is in this moment Now. It can't get any simpler than that. Once you have seen that and have embodied that the seeking energy to find it "out there" by traveling, doing retreats, conceptualizing will fade away. In the simple NOW, all the conceptualization, theory, debate etc. just IS. It's just happening in the Now. It's ALL just ISness. That is the simplicity. Conceptualizing about how conceptualizing is a problem is itself conceptualizing! In the simplicity, there is no problem - it ALL just IS. The mind needs to ADD complexity to view it as a problem. The simple ISness has ZERO problem with any spiritual path, complexity or spiritual theories. ALL of that simply IS. It's all the same ISness as a duck, leaf, cloud etc. It all simply IS. Yet, this is extremely unpalatable to the mind. If this is true, we would just be sitting around in silence ISing. Part of my ego backlash here was getting upset with all this talk about spiritual paths, spiritual concepts, insights etc. I spent over 20yrs. on this so-called "spiritual path", thousands of hours on the meditation cushion, spiritual books, dharma talks, retreats etc. And know I find out it was all unnecessary bullshit? That the real truth is simply being right Now and all that is happening right Now? For a little while, my ego was pissed it wasted all that time and was taken as a sucker. I then challenged this so-called "spiritual path" and all the conceptualizing and tried to tell people it's all unnecessary B.S. We are always zero steps from enlightenment - it is always present right here and Now. Then I started becoming aware that all the spiritual path nonsense can be a distraction to awakening, yet it is also within the awakened state. It is the simple ISness of Now - just like everything. It's all one giant Everything. For a while, there was no more seeking energy. It felt like their was awakening to truth, yet there was still this sense of being unsettled. With time, a new energy arose. It was not the previous seeking energy. It was arising from a different source. Then I realized this isn't The End. In a sense it was the end, in another sense it wasn't the end. Then, all the spiritual "B.S." was a distraction. I started seeing flowers within the field of bullshit. I had never seen these spiritual flowers before and a sense of love, appreciation, wonder, gratitude began to arise - as well as new deeper manifestations of knowing and being.

@korbes It sounds like you are at the "I AM" stage. Also known as the "observer" stage. There is awareness of presence, yet still an observer that perceives "I AM presence", that pen is presence, that tree is presence etc. There is still the perception of separation. The questions you are asking are arising from the "I", "me", "my" perspective. Your questions are assuming there is separation and reinforcing the sense of separation. If your questions arise from a sense of openness, curiosity and exploration - there is a great chance of having insights and going deeper. If your questions arise from a skeptical ego that already knows the answer, wants to analyze and debate - there is little chance of having insights. If you feel a sense of genuineness and interest, I can share a couple exercises that may be helpful to embody and move through this stage.

It seems some dangerous situations are learned and others are innate. For example, the child need to learn that entering a road may be dangerous because a car may be approaching. Yet, what if a child stood on the side of a cliff and looked down. Assuming the child was never told it would be dangerous to jump. Do you think the child would intuitively know it would be dangerous to jump?

I’ve been laying down contemplating Everything is nowhere. It can meander into some wild territory. . .

I keep ending up at this One Everything Nothing Infinity. And there are always lots of Ox tracks around the area. . .

Thank you. I understand better now ?

I’m just trying to understand the context of how you are using the terms consciousness / awareness so I can follow this thread. Wether it’s real or not. . .

There are meditative states of being that don’t need a sitting cushion. Really high states of consciousness of being now - whatever now is. For over 20 years, I set aside meditation time to get mindful and spiritual. Then it started happening during my day: at work, grocery shopping, mowing the lawn etc. Then distinctions began to break down. It didn’t matter where I was. In nature, an ashram in India, taking a bath. This high state of meditative-like awareness was eternally present in the eternal now. It’s a strange transcendent experience.

When you say “categories” are illusory, do you mean the conceptual categorization of things is illusory or that all things are illusory?

@Jack River You’re good. You’re part of the cosmic dance. It’s fun to tumble around sometimes - especially with time

@Mikael89 That’s a great description. It’s not like waking up from sleep, where the mind-body knows time has passed. When I revived from anesthesia, there was no sense time had passed. I even asked the nurse when they would do the operation. She chuckled and told me they already did it. I then asked how could they have done it so fast?

@Jack River I have had time awakenings. I’m trying to communicate to you it goes way beyond that. There is a lot to explore in absolute infinity. All you have written about is within Everything. Yet there is so much more to Everything. It’s Everything!

@Jack River I’m referring to after the awakening to no-self. Awakening is just the beginning.

The other side of that is a clever self that says "stages and progression is all an invention of thought that the self uses to worship itself". I've found that can be an avoidance technique of a clever ego. I've found there is an awakening component and a development component. Two sides of the same coin.

I've been under full anesthesia twice in recent years. It was a non-issue. I was out cold and didn't remember a thing. I woke up, reflected on the experience a bit and got on with life.

I'd like to get clearer on the context of these terms. Would you say that there is one awareness / consciousness of everything / nothing? That a mind, rock, tree etc. are in a sense all within that one awareness / consciousness? Or is there a distinction between the awareness / consciousness of a rock and that of a human?

Many people on the path have gone through similar. What I would suggest is to get in touch with this "observer". You've said things like "My ego" , "I really like". So, you have realized an awareness that is observing the ego. What is this awareness? Can you settle in with it? . . . I think many people entering this stage think "The self is an illusion! It is bad and I need to get rid of it". Instead, why not be this observer of the ego? Rather than fighting against it, why not get curious about this ego and observe it. What the heck is this ego? It's fascinating. You mentioned watching movies. Imagine yourself watching the ego. . . This is much easier to do if the ego mind is relatively quiet. If the ego mind goes into full-on chatter mode, well it's quite unpleasant as you have found out. When the ego mind is in hyper-chatter mode, not much good arises. So, I try to settle it down a bit with yoga, meditation, listening to nonduality teachers, going for a walk or run etc. When I first went through this, it was like I didn't know who I was anymore. Should I do the same things? Should I enjoy the same things? Who am I and what happens now? Some interests faded away and some of those returned. Some new interests arose. I didn't have any issues with appetite. Perhaps you could increase exercise / activity to increase appetite?

Perhaps "complicated" might not be the best term. Maybe "nuanced" would be better. The surface levels are about figuring things out, being right, looking good, seeking knowledge and hoarding knowledge. The deeper levels are more about exploration, discovering, being and sharing. Once there is an awakening to no-self, a whole new world opens up. It goes much deeper than simply seeing and catching the Ox - those are just stages 3 and 4 of 10. And I think reaching out to others that are suffering and offering simple words toward liberation is a heart-felt compassionate endeavor. At times, I've been prone to drop back into spiritual pontification - and as you say, that's not what it's about.

To me, this seems like a major crack into your ego's shell. It's a significant insight, yet it's just the beginning of transcending the ego. After the first big crack is set in, there can be a major ego backlash and the ego can fight like hell to avoid the process. I had a similar experience. After my first really good look at the illusory nature of the ego, it freaked out. My mind was flooded with all sorts of scary stories of uncertainty. "If I give up control, who would gain control? Horrible things could happen!! This whatever thing in control could cause harm! I could lose my job! My girlfriend! My family! We better NOT go down this path!! You need me to survive and be happy!!" It can feel very destabilizing and anxious. One thing that helped me: you are realizing that the ego is an illusory entity. Well, it didn't start being illusory today, this ego has been illusory your entire life. It never existed and you've done fine so far. The ego wants to create this dramatic life situation. It will throw all sorts of delusion, fear and anxiety at you. If that doesn't work, you may get tempted with ideas of pleasure to keep the ego around. It happens to us all, including Buddha himself while he sat under that tree. As you observe and deconstruct the ego/personality more of a sense of your "true nature" may arise. Things will start making sense and there will be lots of "ah-ha" moments. If you continue to practice, you will realize the egoic way of life is not very appealing. As well, it's not like you have to get rid of your personality. You just got a shocking glimpse of awakening, yet the other side of the coin is development, which includes the personality. Yet rather than identifying with the personality, you will gain a meta view of the personality.

@Shin I've also started watching the videos. He is very genuine and has a gentle approach - he doesn't get into intellectual theorizing at all. From what I've seen so far, he stays grounded with the practices. I think a lot of people would resonate with his style. Thanks for sharing it!

Yes. I've had some very uncomfortable transition periods. Yet gradually, the groundlessness started to stabilize and a sense of stability and maturity began to arise.

@Superfluo These terms for emotions can have various levels of depth, understanding and embodiment. For example, there is the conventional idea of a personal love and a higher-level trans-personal absolute Love. Similarly, intuition can mean a lower level intuition based on personal needs, wants, survival and fear - which is the type discussed in Leo's counter-intuitive video. Yet, there is also a much higher level of intuition that is free of attachments, fear, grasping, desperation and ego.

There is a difference between trying to figure it out conceptually and trying to explain it to someone with concepts. If I could transmit it via a post-conceptual intuitive method, I would. Yet at our current state of human development we are limited by language, symbols and concepts. I know it can be annoying when someone speaks esoterically and seems to be trying to sound "spiritual". It used to drive me crazy and I would often tell people at the sangha it's simple it should be explained in simple terms. And now I find it's not so simple to explain. . . I've found that with sufficient direct experience and integration, the ego's craving for understanding and need to "do something to attain" it dissolves. What arises is a trans-egoic energy to embody it and convey it to other beings along the path. Regarding simplicity, I've found that my self can use simplicity as a cover to avoid going deeper. And I keep finding deeper levels. It is so simple, yet also highly complex. A paradox. Yet, it is not an intellectual complexity in terms of reason and logic. That is one reason it is so difficult to communicate it to others.

That's not quite it. It appears I'm unable to explain it in reasonable terms. I find conveying the territory through maps to be one of the most challenging aspects of the practice and I'm still developing these skills. Thank you for your thoughts and patience. I find it helpful to be exposed to many different perspectives.

I wouldn't limit yourself to that belief/expectation. There is a different flavor to higher states of emotion vs. lower need-based emotions. Yet, these higher emotions are not limited to soft and alluring. They can also be really intense. At first, some may seem overpowering and it can take years for these higher level emotions to mature and stabalize.