Forestluv

Nonduality cannot be understood, yet includes all understandings. Nonduality is not a perspective, yet includes all perspectives. Everything = No thing = Nothing

Everything really really means Everything.

This is sooo difficult to point to for minds that haven't plugged 30mg of 5-meo. . .

@ground @SoonHei The human mind is conditioned to use pronouns such as "I", "me", "you" in a personal context. In daily life, pronouns are used in a personal context 99.99% of the time. On this forum, personal pronouns seem normal and fine for discussions at the human/personality level. Yet, when conversations start entering trans-personal / no-self zones, it can get a bit awkward and tricky at times. Here, "I", "me" and "you" doesn't literally mean there is a real self. We still use pronouns because without pronouns conversations get very awkward, inefficient, confusing and annoying. However, there is an underlying understanding that we are not literally referring to a self. It just makes conversation more efficient.

I had similar snags to what your questions suggest. Below is a long description of a few things that helped me get through the perception of separation block. It took me about a year, using various techniques. I describe below the one's that seem so helpful. This is not any type of Absolute Truth or Enlightenment guide. It is only methods I used to re-orient my minds perspective. It's like training wheels. Once you learn to ride the bike, get rid of the training wheels. This is just one approach. If it works for you great. If not, great - ditch it. 1. One of my biggest resistances to seeing One Everything was this sense that I had to choose either / or. I had to choose that I was either an individual person I felt like or a person-less type of whatever that is One with everything which I did NOT feel like. Since I felt like I had to choose between the two, my mind kept coming back to thoughts like "but wait a minute, how can I not exist?". Thoughts similar to the ones you listed above. Here, I explain a different approach in which BOTH are true. You are that individual person AND a person-less existence within One Everything. Your mind has undergone millions of years of evolution and a lifetime of nonstop conditioning to train your mind to only be aware of the perspective that you are a separate being from your surroundings. We are not rejecting this perspective, we are just going to relax the mind so that another perspective arises. The image below shows two simultaneous perspectives. There is a young woman AND an old woman. Yet, the mind can only be aware of one perspective at a time. Your mind is locked into one perspective. Let's say the human mind has evolved to easily see the image of the young woman. And from early childhood every child is conditioned to see the young woman. Thousands of times each day. One's entire view of life is based on the young woman perspective. 99.99999% of people don't even know the old woman perspective exists. Very few people can see the old woman and when they tell others about it, other people resist. They shall say "It's so obvious there is a young woman. Are you telling me the young woman is actually an old woman? You are crazy!!" . . . Asking questions and debating from the perspective of the young woman will not help you see the old woman. It's better to just relax the mind, observe and allow it to arise. Now, we can't make a person see the old woman. We can just *point* to features and hope the person awakens to the old woman. What type of person will be able to see the young woman? Person A: The closed-minded logical debater. We tell him, "look at this line - this line marks the nose of the old woman". The person responds "Hogwash!! That line marks the cheek of the young woman. Science has proven this. Prove to me that line marks the nose of the old woman. You are trying to tell me that line is not part of the young woman when it obviously is!!". . . Well, we won't get very far with this person. . . Person B: The curious open-minded explorer. We tell her, "look at this line - this line marks the nose of the old woman". The person responds "I still only see the young woman, can you give me another pointer?". OK, this thick line looks like a necklace on the young woman, yet it is also the mouth of the old woman. Our student responds "I still only see the young woman. This is really frustrating. What else can I do". We could advise that she just relax her mind and forget about the young woman for a while. So, she relaxes her mind. As thoughts about the young woman arise, she let's them go. This is really hard to do because the mind is conditioned to only see the young woman. As our student continually lets go of young woman thoughts, the mind quiets and then one day "OMFG, there is the old woman!!!!". . . . Yet, it is only a glimpse. The mind snaps back to seeing the young woman. But now, this is no longer conceptualization - she has seen that old woman and knows it exists via her own direct experience. Yet, she needs to keep relaxing her mind to allow the the young woman to arise. With practice, it becomes more common and easier to see the old woman. When we return to look at the young woman, it's just not the same anymore - now that we can also see the old woman. 2. Similarly, the human mind has evolved and is socially conditioned to only see one perspective - that I exist as a separate entity. To "see" the other perspective of One Awareness, we need to let go of our attachment and conditioning to see the individual self (the young woman in the above analogy). The trick is, to be open to "pointers", yet don't get caught up on the pointers. Don't analyze the pointers. In the above example, saying "that line is NOT the old woman!!!" doesn't help. Of course that line isn't the old woman, it is within the old woman. If we just pointed to the old woman, you would have little chance to awaken to it. As well, saying a mantra like "I can see the old woman, I can see the old woman". Doesn't help much either. I think it's best to take in the pointers, relax and let it appear. 3. There are lots of pointers toward One Awareness, similar to the one above. Here is another. Sit in your room and look around. There is awareness you are present. Let go of the past and future and all ideas. Just sit there and be amazed that you have awareness that you exist. It's amazing!! That is the one thing that has never changed in your life - that sense of "I AM". Your body has changed, your thoughts have changed, your life has changed, the world has changed, your likes and dislikes have changed. Yet that sense of "I exist" is unchanging. It doesn't matter if you are hungry, cold, thinking, watching a movie, angry, have a headache, broke your arm - none of that matters. That sense of "I AM" is always present, whatever is happening. This sense of "I AM" is more real to you than anything else. It is the most intimate part of your being. You know this is true more than anything else in your life. I AM present right now. All those thoughts in your head are irrelevant. Regardless of anything you think, the "I AM" is still present. So, just let all the thinking go or just let the brain think and drop below into the sense of "I AM" presence that is more real than those passing thoughts and feelings. Get to know this "I AM" sense of awareness. 4. Once you can rest in this sense of "I AM" presence, look around the room. Let go of your mind's conditioned perception of differences - focus on sameness. What does EVERY thing in the room have in common with your sense of "I AM" present in this moment? Every thing in your room is also present in this moment. Every thing in your room has presence right now. Focus on the sameness. Every thing is presence. Every thing is the same presence, in that Every thing exists in your room. There is a "sameness" of presence. If your mind starts thinking "well, that object is different than that object. How can it be all the same?". Remember, we are NOT saying there are no differences. We are not saying the young woman image doesn't exist. Yes, there are differences, that's another perspective - just let that go and relax. . . So, every thing in your room is present. The all have a sameness in that they are all present. Now, look at how all these presences are interconnected. The presence of items that contact tables, the presence of molecules in the air you breath, the presence of body contacting a couch. It's all interconnected presence. Now is the big jump. . . see it as One Everything in the room. All the things present are interconnected into One Everything that is present. Here, there is no separation. Show yourself something in your room that is not within Everything. You can't do it. Even the thoughts passing through your head are within Everything. How about memories? Those too are within the One Everything in the room. Try to think of something or do something that is not within this Everything. Think of an elephant. Do cartwheels across the room. Laugh. Cry. Whatever happens in your mind or body is withing Everything. And all objects in the room are within Everything. 5. Get glimpses of that One Everything. Your mind will likely snap right back into seeing individual objects and get attached to differences. That is OK. That is just the other perspective (the young woman). Seeing separation is not right or wrong. Yet, if you can get a good look at that One Everything, that is a direct look at a hair on the Ox's tail. 6. Does this mean we strive to always perceive this One Everything? Does this mean there are no objects and no differences in life? No. It is just a different perspective and it is very practical in day to day life. After all, we drive a car, drink water have conversations with other people. It will be very difficult to have this One Everything perspective in public and when you are doing stuff. That is why it is so important to set aside quiet time practice to return to this One Everything state of being. Meditation, yoga, a walk in nature, sitting by a river and observing. . .

@SOUL Beautiful

@SOUL It's seems like you have had some awakenings of the simplicity of being in the present moment. From that vantage point, all the seeking, intellectualizing, theories, debates about enlightenment appear as irrelevant and a distraction. Everything is in this moment Now. It can't get any simpler than that. Once you have seen that and have embodied that the seeking energy to find it "out there" by traveling, doing retreats, conceptualizing will fade away. In the simple NOW, all the conceptualization, theory, debate etc. just IS. It's just happening in the Now. It's ALL just ISness. That is the simplicity. Conceptualizing about how conceptualizing is a problem is itself conceptualizing! In the simplicity, there is no problem - it ALL just IS. The mind needs to ADD complexity to view it as a problem. The simple ISness has ZERO problem with any spiritual path, complexity or spiritual theories. ALL of that simply IS. It's all the same ISness as a duck, leaf, cloud etc. It all simply IS. Yet, this is extremely unpalatable to the mind. If this is true, we would just be sitting around in silence ISing. Part of my ego backlash here was getting upset with all this talk about spiritual paths, spiritual concepts, insights etc. I spent over 20yrs. on this so-called "spiritual path", thousands of hours on the meditation cushion, spiritual books, dharma talks, retreats etc. And know I find out it was all unnecessary bullshit? That the real truth is simply being right Now and all that is happening right Now? For a little while, my ego was pissed it wasted all that time and was taken as a sucker. I then challenged this so-called "spiritual path" and all the conceptualizing and tried to tell people it's all unnecessary B.S. We are always zero steps from enlightenment - it is always present right here and Now. Then I started becoming aware that all the spiritual path nonsense can be a distraction to awakening, yet it is also within the awakened state. It is the simple ISness of Now - just like everything. It's all one giant Everything. For a while, there was no more seeking energy. It felt like their was awakening to truth, yet there was still this sense of being unsettled. With time, a new energy arose. It was not the previous seeking energy. It was arising from a different source. Then I realized this isn't The End. In a sense it was the end, in another sense it wasn't the end. Then, all the spiritual "B.S." was a distraction. I started seeing flowers within the field of bullshit. I had never seen these spiritual flowers before and a sense of love, appreciation, wonder, gratitude began to arise - as well as new deeper manifestations of knowing and being.

@korbes It sounds like you are at the "I AM" stage. Also known as the "observer" stage. There is awareness of presence, yet still an observer that perceives "I AM presence", that pen is presence, that tree is presence etc. There is still the perception of separation. The questions you are asking are arising from the "I", "me", "my" perspective. Your questions are assuming there is separation and reinforcing the sense of separation. If your questions arise from a sense of openness, curiosity and exploration - there is a great chance of having insights and going deeper. If your questions arise from a skeptical ego that already knows the answer, wants to analyze and debate - there is little chance of having insights. If you feel a sense of genuineness and interest, I can share a couple exercises that may be helpful to embody and move through this stage.

It seems some dangerous situations are learned and others are innate. For example, the child need to learn that entering a road may be dangerous because a car may be approaching. Yet, what if a child stood on the side of a cliff and looked down. Assuming the child was never told it would be dangerous to jump. Do you think the child would intuitively know it would be dangerous to jump?

I’ve been laying down contemplating Everything is nowhere. It can meander into some wild territory. . .

I keep ending up at this One Everything Nothing Infinity. And there are always lots of Ox tracks around the area. . .

Thank you. I understand better now ?

I’m just trying to understand the context of how you are using the terms consciousness / awareness so I can follow this thread. Wether it’s real or not. . .

There are meditative states of being that don’t need a sitting cushion. Really high states of consciousness of being now - whatever now is. For over 20 years, I set aside meditation time to get mindful and spiritual. Then it started happening during my day: at work, grocery shopping, mowing the lawn etc. Then distinctions began to break down. It didn’t matter where I was. In nature, an ashram in India, taking a bath. This high state of meditative-like awareness was eternally present in the eternal now. It’s a strange transcendent experience.

When you say “categories” are illusory, do you mean the conceptual categorization of things is illusory or that all things are illusory?

@Jack River You’re good. You’re part of the cosmic dance. It’s fun to tumble around sometimes - especially with time

@Mikael89 That’s a great description. It’s not like waking up from sleep, where the mind-body knows time has passed. When I revived from anesthesia, there was no sense time had passed. I even asked the nurse when they would do the operation. She chuckled and told me they already did it. I then asked how could they have done it so fast?

@Jack River I have had time awakenings. I’m trying to communicate to you it goes way beyond that. There is a lot to explore in absolute infinity. All you have written about is within Everything. Yet there is so much more to Everything. It’s Everything!

@Jack River I’m referring to after the awakening to no-self. Awakening is just the beginning.

The other side of that is a clever self that says "stages and progression is all an invention of thought that the self uses to worship itself". I've found that can be an avoidance technique of a clever ego. I've found there is an awakening component and a development component. Two sides of the same coin.

I've been under full anesthesia twice in recent years. It was a non-issue. I was out cold and didn't remember a thing. I woke up, reflected on the experience a bit and got on with life.

I'd like to get clearer on the context of these terms. Would you say that there is one awareness / consciousness of everything / nothing? That a mind, rock, tree etc. are in a sense all within that one awareness / consciousness? Or is there a distinction between the awareness / consciousness of a rock and that of a human?

Many people on the path have gone through similar. What I would suggest is to get in touch with this "observer". You've said things like "My ego" , "I really like". So, you have realized an awareness that is observing the ego. What is this awareness? Can you settle in with it? . . . I think many people entering this stage think "The self is an illusion! It is bad and I need to get rid of it". Instead, why not be this observer of the ego? Rather than fighting against it, why not get curious about this ego and observe it. What the heck is this ego? It's fascinating. You mentioned watching movies. Imagine yourself watching the ego. . . This is much easier to do if the ego mind is relatively quiet. If the ego mind goes into full-on chatter mode, well it's quite unpleasant as you have found out. When the ego mind is in hyper-chatter mode, not much good arises. So, I try to settle it down a bit with yoga, meditation, listening to nonduality teachers, going for a walk or run etc. When I first went through this, it was like I didn't know who I was anymore. Should I do the same things? Should I enjoy the same things? Who am I and what happens now? Some interests faded away and some of those returned. Some new interests arose. I didn't have any issues with appetite. Perhaps you could increase exercise / activity to increase appetite?

Perhaps "complicated" might not be the best term. Maybe "nuanced" would be better. The surface levels are about figuring things out, being right, looking good, seeking knowledge and hoarding knowledge. The deeper levels are more about exploration, discovering, being and sharing. Once there is an awakening to no-self, a whole new world opens up. It goes much deeper than simply seeing and catching the Ox - those are just stages 3 and 4 of 10. And I think reaching out to others that are suffering and offering simple words toward liberation is a heart-felt compassionate endeavor. At times, I've been prone to drop back into spiritual pontification - and as you say, that's not what it's about.

To me, this seems like a major crack into your ego's shell. It's a significant insight, yet it's just the beginning of transcending the ego. After the first big crack is set in, there can be a major ego backlash and the ego can fight like hell to avoid the process. I had a similar experience. After my first really good look at the illusory nature of the ego, it freaked out. My mind was flooded with all sorts of scary stories of uncertainty. "If I give up control, who would gain control? Horrible things could happen!! This whatever thing in control could cause harm! I could lose my job! My girlfriend! My family! We better NOT go down this path!! You need me to survive and be happy!!" It can feel very destabilizing and anxious. One thing that helped me: you are realizing that the ego is an illusory entity. Well, it didn't start being illusory today, this ego has been illusory your entire life. It never existed and you've done fine so far. The ego wants to create this dramatic life situation. It will throw all sorts of delusion, fear and anxiety at you. If that doesn't work, you may get tempted with ideas of pleasure to keep the ego around. It happens to us all, including Buddha himself while he sat under that tree. As you observe and deconstruct the ego/personality more of a sense of your "true nature" may arise. Things will start making sense and there will be lots of "ah-ha" moments. If you continue to practice, you will realize the egoic way of life is not very appealing. As well, it's not like you have to get rid of your personality. You just got a shocking glimpse of awakening, yet the other side of the coin is development, which includes the personality. Yet rather than identifying with the personality, you will gain a meta view of the personality.