Forestluv

Veggie curry? C’mon. Chicken Masala is the absolute best, even in a relative cuisine construct. ?

I grew up in the 70s and 80s before the internet / digital age. It’s so interesting to hear younger generations that grew up with the internet talk about living without it.

Back to the Soup again!! ? ?

In terms of stages, I like the Ox analogy. Because of psychedelics, I haven’t had a linear progression through the stages. I’ve jumped ahead many times and back. Integrating it, without contracting it or distorting it, takes a lot of experience and skill, imo

@graded24 There are a wide variety of mystical experiences. I think the mind gets into a problem when a self takes ownership of the experience and/or becomes attached / identified with the experience. I’d say it took me over 30 trips until the trips just “is what it is” without involvement of a self. And then the chains come off - things go deep when the self leaves the picture. I wouldn’t be surprised if those sages’ advice was sound for the majority of trippers. I’ve met many trippers that are lost. They may use it carelessly and recreationally. In Peru, I met lots of voyagers doing Ayahuasca ceremonies multiple times per week. These were generally younger people traveling around the world, seeking and searching for themselves, for something meaningful. And they were completely delusional. They would ramble on about time is an illusion and different dimensions. . . They were in there own little bubble of ideology, group think and delusion. So yes, psychedelics carry both risk and reward. It takes discipline and skill to use this tool well. Many, perhaps most, do not. I had over 20yrs. of meditation and introspective work before my first trip. I did what you’re doing now for over 20yrs. I had a strong foundation before my first trip. I had the experience, discipline, conceptual knowledge and grounding to integrate a lot of lessons from a variety of different consciousness spaces. Some were extremely difficult lessons and very uncomfortable and scary to process. I’ve wanted to back out many times. Overall, the work has greatly expanded the mind’s conscious level and capacity. Yet, this is dependent on one’s baseline level of consciousness. Someone with a high baseline level of consciousness can utilize psychedelics as an extraordinary spiritual tool. So I would tend to agree with sages regarding low conscious minds and psychedelics. Regarding high conscious use is a different story. Here I would like to speak to those sages that had over 20yrs of meditation / introspective work and then used a variety of psychedelics over 100 times. And worked hard to integrate those teachings into their strong foundation. Yes, I’d be very interested in what those sages have to say. In general, would you chose one conscious state or 100+ integrated conscious states? You are giving far too much credit to human teachers and too little credit to your own higher teacher. The teacher beyond human minds.

Flow states are so amazing ?

@Wisebaxter Yea. The best way to get out of it is to just sit down and let it go. Then the trip can continue on. I’ve only been caught in loops over 5min twice - before I knew what they were. I had thought it was part of the deal . And I tend to be absent-minded to begin with. The other references to the thread sound different than my understanding of thought loops. We may be talking about different phenomena. Yet, when I google psychedelic thought loops it’s about the loss of short-term memory. I didn’t find it to be a “bad” place. Just disorienting and confusing. They can be kinda funny, yet also annoying. I was blind-sided at first, yet was able to recognize it after that.

@Wisebaxter Thought loops are a trap of confusion, not clarity. It's trapped in a loop of thoughts, actions and emotions that repeat themselves over and over. They are very disorienting and caused by psychedelic-induced loss of short-term memory. Here is an example of one of my thought loops: Ok, it's kickin' in, what shall I do? I'll watch the movie Dr. Strange. Maybe I should make some popcorn. I should drink some water. I better use the toilet before drinking water. My face looks weird in the mirror. What's that popping sound? Wasn't I suppose to be doing something? Oh yea, the movie. I better use the toilet before the movie. Was I just in the bathroom looking at my face? Or is this the first time? Did I ever leave the bathroom, or have I been here the whole time? And why do I smell popcorn? Oh, the movie Dr. Strange is playing. Did I just watch it? I don't remember, I might as well watch it. Wouldn't it be nice to have some popcorn? How am I back in the bathroom looking in the mirror? Did I ever leave the bathroom? Was I just asking myself that question? I should drink some water, but I better pee first. Why can't I pee? Most thought loops I've had only last a few minutes. This one lasted over an hour. . .

@Preetom Well said ?

I see them all as different teachers and I would not put Aya higher than shrooms, San Pedro or LSD. I would put 5-meo a half notch higher. Aya was really demanding - especially physically. It took my body two full days to recover from the first ceremony. Ugh. . . IME, Aya has it's own flavor yet it's still in the same ballpark of psychedelics. Part of the mysticism was traveling to the mountains of Peru, the people in the community, the temple, the amazing music and landscapes. I would have gotten just as much doing mushrooms/LSD during the retreat as Aya. If I returned, it would be more for the atmosphere than the Aya. Also, it can be a big investment of time / money and one cannot predict what the ceremony will be like. A woman next to me became a lizard during the ceremony and was really disappointed afterwards. Another woman threw twice and fell asleep. She took a second serving and fell back asleep. Other people had deep realizations. Psychedelics can go into bizarre nutty places that don't really have anything to do with, well anything. Personally, I wouldn't take a trip just for an Aya retreat. I was already going to Peru to study Spanish and I added in the Aya retreat.

That's cool. You seem to have a curious mind and I appreciate your thoughts. Are you planning on doing an Aya ceremony? If so, I don't mean to scare you with the terror stuff. My first ceremony was absolute bliss. I was so connected to everyone in the temple. When it came time for surrender, the choice was my old egoic mindset or absolute beauty, love and harmony. I was like "Huh? This is it? The big surrender? Heck yea, I'll surrender!!! Helloooooo bliss!!". At one point, I walked outside and looked over the moonlit Peruvian mountains as ethereal music flowed around the temple. The beauty, love and joy was indescribable. I was in a magical land. I thought "How have I missed this beauty my whole life". Part of my difficulty the second ceremony was that I wanted to steer it back to blissville. It doesn't work that way. Mother Aya does her thing. Before the second ceremony, I was feeling a bit cocky. I made it through my first ceremony without a scratch and was actually giving first-timers advice. Then I was humbled big time.

@zambize I like the imagery you used and I think it is true. I'm getting at something a bit different. For example, during my Aya ceremony as I lost control my mind-body went into anxiety and then I realized I couldn't turn back and make it stop. Then panic arose. Then full-on terror. There was no escape or avoiding it. I was paralyzed and couldn't physically move. There were no concepts of time. I struggled in anguish and terror for eternity. And then, there was no struggle. The terror just was. The terror was no different than a speck of dust or the wing of a butterfly. There was absolute peace. Terror = Peace. I can't imagine how a mind-body can transcend terror/peace without a direct experience like that. We could get all philosophical and conceptualize about the essence of terror and peace. Yet, that experience went sooo much deeper than concepts.

There is a memory, yet the breakthrough experiences are not like "my experience". There is an embodiment of the direct experience. It goes way beyond a memory. Imagine reaching the consciousness level of a 70 y.o. zen master. Or, a squirrel attaining the consciousness level of a human. It's really hard to explain in reasonable terms. On the other hand, lots of people don't respond well to psychedelics and they can take a person into all sorts of nutty bizarre places irrelevant to nonduality proper. You've got momentum with the self-inquiry. Ride it.

One cannot understand without the direct experience. Cannabis isn't even in the same ballpark as Aya or 5-meo. It's not what you imagine it to be. It is beyond all these concepts of Truth, moments, Here and Now, relations, memory, mini versions, what is attractive, "you", "me" etc. That is all within a tiny contracted space. All that gets obliterated on a trip and one is shown a much more expanded consciousness. When one returns, the mind tries to contextualize it - yet the direct experience and some consciousness expansion remains. One does not unsee what they have seen. Yet, it's just one tool. If it doesn't resonate with you, don't use that tool. There are plenty of other tools. A few days after my Aya retreat, I met a woman who just returned from six months in an Ashram in India. She had never done psychedelics because he teacher told her it wasn't the right path for her. We hung out together for a week - talking hours and hours. We both knew it through direct experience, yet our approaches were so different. It was fascinating. One wasn't better or worse - just different.

Along these lines, it seems a lot of seekers are trying to follow a blissful, peaceful path to transcendence - and there are plenty of teachers that teach to this. Yet, the ego dissolution process for my mind-body had as much terror and insanity as it did peace, joy and love. Looking back, I can't imagine how those distinctions can collapse without the direct experience of terror/insanity collapsing with peace/joy/love.

I made similar assumptions until I lived within a great tradition/sages that do include psychedelics extensively as part of the path. Yes, it's only one tool that should be integrated with other tools - yet it was the most powerful tool IME. After 20yrs of traditional meditation, I finally became willing to try something more radical. I learned more during that first ego death experience than those 20yrs of meditation. Afterwards, I thought "So thaaaaat's what those buddhist monks were talking about all those years". . . It seems like you are getting close with your methods. If you have momentum, go with it. . .

I spent over 20yrs in meditation and buddhism and never got past the "witness + object" stage. The first ego death experiences came with a few solo psychedelic trips, which were so powerful that I took it to the next level by attending an Ayahuasca retreat with a tribe in Peru. It was really intense and beyond any description, yet it was non-abiding - what followed was a period of integration and gradual ego dissolution. Yet for me, the direct experience with ego death greatly accelerated the pace. Baseline consciousness level has increased with meditation, yoga, self inquiry and nonduality teachings. The nondual pyschedelic experiences opened up nondual experiences while sober. They can have anxiety/fear when the ego struggles for control. Yet, over time - they have become more common with less resistance. This is just one approach. There are many. It seems like winterknight's approach is resonating with you. If so, go with that. It just didn't get me over the hump until after a few psychedelic trips - then it started falling in place.

Of course, they are just words. We use words as pointers all the time and we use words for convenience in conversation. I'm not referring to intellectual and conceptual usages. I'm referring to direct experience. You appear to be at a "witness + object" stage. Your usage of the words, to me, suggest that ego death has not fully revealed itself through direct experience and has not been fully embodied. If it had, you wouldn't be asking the questions you are. This goes much much deeper than concepts and figuring things out. Facing the death of self through direct experience was by far the most terrifying experiences my mind-body has ever gone through. Thinking is a walk in the park vs. facing it through direct experience. I thought offering a pointer may help in your situation, yet your mind seems more open to winterknight's approach - which is fine, different minds resonate with different pointers.

The overall tone of your post suggested to me the terms "should", "my" and "response" were used with an assumption of a chooser / doer within a timeline. Without the assumption of a chooser / doer in a timeline, the post no longer makes sense to me.

This assumes the existence of a chooser / doer. . .

Of course. And after soup realization, the search for soup ends - yet the cooking goes on. . .

Yes. All "paths" lead back to the soup - which is Everything / Nothing.

Yes. The subjective experience feels like digging. Yet, from an ultimate perspective, distinctions collapse and there is singularity. I would be mindful of context for the phrase "outcome will be the same". That assumes cause and effect within a timeline.

This is digging into the heart of the soup.

@Quantum_fluctuations Asking if suffering is optional assumes there is a chooser. I would question this assumption and inquire: who/what is this chooser? During meditation, see if you can locate a chooser.