Forestluv

@Jed Vassallo Days 1 and 3 is unsurprising. It was a baby size starting dose and the redose was likely within the tolerance window. Day 4 sounds right on. Hard to say what happened on day 2 - tolerance should have reset.

I’m referring to trans-egoic states. Development doesn’t require imperfection toward perfection. Development can include the unchanging perfection of Reality as it is. Yes, after stage 5 becomes trans-egoic.

What if there are trans-egoic, post-conceptual lines of development? In the Ox analogy of spiritual maturity, one might consider enlightenment to be around stage 4 of 10. It seems Shankara is acknowledging some form of spiritual process / stages / levels etc. I’m curious if they would consider enlightenment “stage 10”.

Who determines what is “harm”? Are these values objective and universal? If not, what if a teacher disagreed with these subjective and relative values?

It certainly appears like that from a rational vantage point.

This is classic ego backlash. Leo recently made a video on it. I’d recommend watching it,

@Preetom Regarding Adi Shankara’s characteristics of spiritual maturity, was their endpoint what they considered to be enlightenment? Did they also describe post-enlightenment characteristics? I think it’s interesting to integrate sudden awakening with development / maturity.

Why stop at contemplation and thinking? Go to what You are, before the you was born.

Of course the ego will say beware. The ego wants to maintain control of the narrative. Fear is perhaps it’s strongest weapon. At times, one must venture into uncomfortable spaces to find truth.

The words are merely a pointer. In this “realm”, I’ve found it best to let go of the words and relax the mind. This tends to increase the liklihood that “what” is being pointed to may be revealed.

Of course. That is a reasonable perspective within a rational linguistic paradigm. A mind would need to surrender that safety blanket to further expand.

Such an inter-individual consciousness is a bridge toward the concept of a collective consciousness (that includes individuals). There is another “level” higher in which all distinctions collapse into one consciousness.

Very nice. The concept of all things being within consciousness can be a useful step for a mind. Yet once a mind becomes relaxed and settled here, there may arise the realization that “within” suggests there is a “without” - and then this duality can collapse. Yet, I think the “within consciousness” imagery can be a helpful pointer for an open mind that has not yet had direct nondual experience.

@Quantum_fluctuations You touch upon one of the strongest resistances of an ego. My first experiences of “ego death” had a horrifying component to it: harm anxiety. As the self lost control, the distnctions between good and evil began to collapse. The mind lost the ability to differentiate between kindness and harm. There was no difference between stabbing someone (including myself) and drinking a glass of water. Intense fear arose that anything could happen. From the perspective of an ego, the mind-body can no longer differentiate between good and evil - therefore, both good and evil would happen through my mind body. There was a belief that a sense of self is necessary to be aware of good and evil and to refrain the mind-body from doing harmful actions. I’d say this dynamic of surrender has been the most challenging for my self. Surrendering that last bit of control and entering unkown, uncertainty, groundlessness. Yet in those no-self mind states, there hasn’t been motivation to cause harm. That energy just isn’t present. From a self-based “rational” viewpoint, I don’t know if that is a fundamental truth of egoless mind states, or if it’s a relative truth based on the evolutionary and social conditioning of my particular mind-body. Yet, surrendering and going beyond the good/evil framework opens up a whole new realm of exploration, ime.

@Beeflamb Ime, I wouldn’t recommend watching during a peak zone. The mind state is too nonverbal and post conceptual. micro/mini doses can help foster a mind state of creativity and integration which could be beneficial while watching spiritual/nondual teachings. Yet, so can other practices. It just depends on the mind.

There are more than “a few studies” and for a variety of disorders. These are studies conducted by top research institutions and published in the highest quality scientific journals. Of course not everone is a good candidate for psychedelic therapy, such as people with schizophrenia symptoms or a family history of schizophrenia. Psychedelics have been shown to be one of the safest mind-altering substances with widespread health benefits. They are powerful substances that should be respected and taken with consideration, planning and care.

@Cudin wow, Raisi is amazing.

Numerous clinical studies have shown psychedelics to effectively treat a variety of mental conditions including depression, addiction, ptsd and end-of-life anxiety. MDMA studies for ptsd were awarded the highest status by the fda and are in phase 3 clinical trials in the U.S. Together, the studies have shown there is no risk to patients. The clinical studies are supported by cellular studies showing psychedelics are a powerful neurotrophic factor and induce neuronal growth and plasticity. The positive effects induced by LSD and DMT were as potent as the brain’s strongest endogenous neurotrophic factor, BDNF. Furthermore, study after study consistently rate psychedelics among the lowest harm risk for both the user and society.

I don’t think it’s fruitful to speculate and debate about who is enlightened and who is the most enlightened. There are many different approaches and teaching styles toward enlightenment, which resonate differently among seekers.

Off topic

@SQAAD I would self inquire: “to whom is this happening to?”

These speculative questions about “what’s it like after enlightenment?” are not particularly helpful because they can feed an “enlightenment story” that can become a distraction. One doesn't need to speculate and get immersed in storytelling about what enlightenment would be like. One can do self exploration and find out right now in one’s own direct experience.

It depends in the underlying values, motivation and maturity level. Also depends on the context the man is using “spiritual”.

@Truth Addict In your original post, notice how it is a story about “me”. . . “I am this . . . “. “I am that. . “. To me, there seems to be identification with this character. It can be quite difficult to de-identify with the personality dynamic and a lifetime of mental conditioning. This is one reason psychedelics can be so powerful. They can completely dissolve the story, the timeline and conditioned “rational” thinking. There are other practices that can be effective, such as breathing meditation and labeling thoughts and coming to rest in the “I am”. Yet, it can take time. Ime, getting immersed in thoughts and concepts isn’t particularly helpful and can be counter-productive. And be aware that everyone here is at a different maturity stage and we are all working through delusions in our way, including myself.

Your messages raise a few ideas in the mind regarding thoughts and the personality dynamic: The direct experience of thoughtless being can allow light to shine in on the illusory natue of self concept. I imagine looking through a kaleidoscope that has various fragments including memories, beliefs, sensations, feelings and emotions. The mind tries to link all of these fragments into a story and self concept of ‘me’. Who I am. What I value and need. . . Thoughts seem to be the “glue” trying to hold all the fragments into a coherent story and self image. Yet, this leads to internal conflict due to contradictions among fragments. The mind tries to hold it all together by seeking validation, avoidance, rationalization, blaming etc. Also, as the kaleidoscope turns, fragments disappear, appear, and get shuffled. Yet, the mind works to maintain a static permanent illusory image of “me”. The mind can get so immersed in the story that it assumes it is true. For a “beginner”, it seems anything that can shed light on the illusory nature of the story can be helpful. For example, “gaps” in the stream of thinking - like being in thoughtless awe observing the Grand Canyon. Or, thoughtless gaps of silence during meditation. These often go unnoticed by the personality. When noticed, thoughts like “whoa, that was strange. What just happened there?” may arise. Yet, these thoughtless gaps of silence are often subconsciously dismissed in favor of the security the story seems to provide. Yet with practice and tecnique, a mind can relax and the stream of thoughts slow, allowing for thoughtless gaps of silence to expand into periods in which awareness rests. From this stillness and peace, the relationship to thoughts “matures”. Thoughts are no longer glue trying to hold a kaleidoscope of fragments together to form an illusory image called “me”. From the place of still peace - thoughts, feelings, sensations are all arisings in the moment. Categorizing things as “thought”, “feeling”, “hearing” etc. dissolves and thought is non-thought. As the illusory story of self dissolves, one can now view the kaleidoscope clearly.