Forestluv

@Charlotte Was there any awareness present? Sometimes when my self dissolves, there is no concept of time and no “experiencer”, just experience. When the self “returns” it seems like absent time because “he” wasn’t there.

I lived in Eugene for five years. It's pretty much Green cultural immersion. The Emerald Valley. . .

@graded24 Just out of curiosity, would you say that this centeredless awareness resided in the mind-body? Or that the awareness was beyond mind-body. For example, the awareness was the entire room. I’ve recently had some experiences in which awareness was outside of, yet included, the mind-body. Not quite astral projection, because the awareness wasn’t centered at a point. It was nowhere and everywhere in the room.

@Nahm ? ? ?

@SoonHei Ime, the concepts are important as a foundation for direct experience. Without a conceptual framework, the mind may dismiss mystical experiences as “woo woo”. My concern with concepts is attachment and identification with concepts. The concepts themselves are simply more ISness. Yes, I’d say ISness is more fundamental than AMness because the mind is more likely to identify with AMness. It’s easier to personalize AMness. For example, it’s easy for the mind to think “I am this”. Yet resistant to “The rock am this”.

@SQAAD I would be mindful of creating an “enlightenment story”. This can create expectations and a sense of something to be acheived. I.e. an assumption that some type of event happens to a person. Perhaps shift the original question and contemplate “Is what is permanent or not?”.

@SoonHei Within the constructs of time and progress, I’d say there were several insights planted in my mind-body that coalesced. During a spiritual retreat in Peru, the “I AM” was revealed through direct experience during a ceremony. At the end of the ceremony, the shaman spoke of the “I AM” and there was a rudimentary embodiment. This was a radically different state of being, and as I wandered around South America for the next three months, consciousness flowed into, and out, of the I AM. One helpful thing the shaman said was to be mindful whenever we add something on to the I AM. “I am a kind person”, “I am depressed”, “I am a teacher”, “I am American” etc. Sometimes this has practical use when interacting with people, yet awareness arose of the identification to what is being attached to the I Am. I’d be sitting in a collectivo for hours and realize I was immersed in identifying with “I am. . . this or that”. This conditining kept popping up and for months I kept “returning” to the I AM state of mind. For me, this was just a simple recognition and letting go of the add-ons to the “I AM”. After about a year of this de-conditioning, a sense of grounding and peace within the I AM arose. It became fairly easy to relax into it. Then, I watched a Rupert Spira video in which he used an analogy of an observer watching a movie. This observer he spoke of connected to the I AM direct experience within me. Then he said that this was an intermediate stage. I thought “wth, there is another stage? No way”. Yet when he spoke of the collapse between observer and object during the next stage, there was a sense of truth there that hadn’t been embodied in my mind-body, One day I was walking in the woods simply “I AM-ing” with nature. Spira’s movie analogy arose in the mind and a conscious state of awareness of the “nature movie” that I AM was observing. Then a thought/image/sense arose that the real movie was about an “I AM” character in a movie theater watching a movie. This was a radical recontextualization that lasted a couple minutes. Then, it spiraled into a movie of a movie of a movie. . . on and on into an insanity zone - it was beyond what the mind could comprehend. It expanded into infinity and disappeared. No observer. No movie. Just ISness. Sometimes that “place” just arises. Other times, a thought process or concentration practice may reveal “it”. Once this was revealed, there was a shift in the source of seeking energy. The seeking energy to find answers and figure it out dissolved. The desire to travel to monasteries and ashrams dissolved. Reading texts telling the reader what “it” is lost it’s appeal. A new energy arose seeking exploration and to return to the direct experience of ISness. Speakers that spoke of the experience and essence of this Am-ness and ISness resonated with me. It is temtpting to create a “place” of this ISness within the mind. Yet it cannot be located or found as a place within a timeline, because it is always present here and now. All thoughts, actions, places, things are ISness. Once there was a clear “seeing” of this, the game was exposed as a game and the “I” cannot unsee that. Yet, various states of relative consciousness arise. Thoughts, emotions and mind states appear and disappear within the timeline, yet “underling” these appearances/disappearances is an unchanging ISness. This is all just an story within an illusory timeline. Yet, it is also a story that arises as ISness in this eternal moment. The I AM is not identified with this story - that would be an “add-on”. There is no “I” to take ownership of the story. There is no experiencer that experienced the story. It would be more truthful to say the story arises within what IS, similar to how a story sung by a bird arises within what IS.

@SoonHei ♥️ ?

This seems like maturing awareness of an observer. A nonjudgemental awareness that simply observes. In the observing awareness of “I AM”, it is so tempting to add stuff on to the I AM. “I am awareness”, “I am an observer of thought” etc. This is subtle movement toward dual constructs. Movement toward nondual might be to drop the “I” in “I AM” and just be “AM”. Sit in the stillness of “AM-ness”. One experience that helped collapse the observer was the realization of observing the oberver. And not in intellectual theorizing. Rather, the awarenesd and experience of observing the observer. Then, awareness of observing the observer of the observer. This then spiraled into infinite observers observing an observer and the whole concept collapsed. “I Am” collapsed into “Am” which collapse into “IS”, which collapsed into nothing.

That is how it appears to a mind contracted within intellect. It seems quite reasonable from that perspective. Letting go of intellect and having direct experience of nonintellectual states of being is key. What is being pointed to here is not about expanding meaning intellectually. The intellect gets attached to words. Let go of the meaning - let go of the entire intellect for a while. This cannot be explained to an intellect, it comes through practice and direct experience. Once these modes of being are experienced, they can be expressed indirectly through language. To minds contracted within the intellect, we call these expressions “pointers” to help guide the mind. Among beings with the direct experience, it is simply the expression. And they are wonderful expressions that connect via nonintellectual modes. Modes of being beyond the intellect are expressed daily on the forum. Yet a mind that only uses an intellectual lens will not “get it”, because it’s not to be gotten intellectually. Such expressions may seem irrational, ignorant and naive to an intellectual mind set. As well, the intellect may interpet such expressions as deceptive. There is nothing wrong or bad with an intellect. There are wonderful aspects of the intellect. Yet the intellect can dominate such that it’s mode is the default. This leads to a contracted state of being.

The intellect is just one mode of being. There are other modes. Yet, the intellect needs to settle down, let go of and surrendered for other modes of being. For many minds, the intellect is dominant and the default mode of being. Practices such as meditation and yoga are essential for de-conditioning the intellect as well as expand into other modes of being.

@aurum I like that perspective on really good looking women. Do you think really good looks are generally sufficient to elevate a woman to that status? Or, are there other factors necessary as well? Such as certain personality traits, being raised in a higher status family etc.

What a wonderful analogy ?

Yes. We had arrived all along. . . ☺️

@Shin It’s so cool to observe your maturation. Nice work. ♥️?

That’s a great question! ♥️ ?

The illusory self likes to keep “itself” relevant through a variety of dynamics. Trying to manipulate meditation practice is one form of it's expression. For example, setting up expectations of what meditation “should” look like and what the results of meditation “should look like”. In othet words, “what’s in it for me”. It’s easy to get lulled into attachment/identification with self concepts. In this dynamic, I think it’s best to work on de-identifying with thoughts, self concepts and the “me” story. Over time, to become an objective witness to thoughts without judgment or criticism. It also sounds like a self vs. self dynamic, which keeps the self relevant. “I must work hard and concentrate to make myself stop thinking”. That’s a contracted perspective within the illusory self. To get a sense of the witness, let your mind go wherever it wants. Just observe. The key is not to try and control thoughts or the mind. Let the mind do whatever it wants, just keep observing as a neutral / unattached observer. Further explained here:

“Whoever heard of reindeer flying? I think it’s becoming general knowledge that Santa is taking a ‘trip’ with his reindeer.” ??

Keep in mind that values are expressed differently at each stage and the underlying motivational drive also shifts. For example, the value of authority primarily enters at stage Blue. Yet, the meaning of authority matures up the spiral and is expressed differently in Blue vs. Yellow stages.

It’s quite impressive that you’ve done all the techniques Leo has prescribed for several months each. What was your several months of psychedelic use like?

This looks like a personality dynamic of control to me. I would drop the script and practice “Do Nothing” meditation for a while.

I prefer the image of two sides of one coin. Or, the illusion of the young and old woman. Both same and different simultaneously.

Well said. ? If I may toss in another idea along those lines. . . As the rational need-based self dissolves, there is a sense of oneness with “others”. Unified empathy and love arise from grace.

@Zigzag Idiot That is a wonderful essay and website. She integrates various modes of being beautifully. This is the first I’ve heard of her. Thanks for sharing it! ?

@Dan Arnautu When you enter this nondual state with strong energy impulse, are you able to pull back and dial it down? One thing I’m currently learning in yoga is working within energy flows. Sometimes the energy gets into unstable state of frequencey and fluctuation that can feel too intense and uncomfortable. Sometimes an energetic relaxing and calming arises. Other times, the energy seems to align in the present moment and flow. And yet other times it’s beyond my edge and I either sit in the discomfort or take a break if I can.