Forestluv

@SoonHei It's so cool watching you have all these direct experience insights. Thank you for sharing them. I would say "it's so obvious" is a common reaction to having direct experience with things that once seemed so elusive. Consider your avatar. I see two black faces, yet people tell me it is actually a white vase. I search and search for the vase. I try to figure out where the vase is. I get frustrated. I give up and then return. People tell me to relax and the vase will be revealed. Yet no vase. How do I know the vase is real? How do I know the "vase-seeing people" aren't full of crap? Then, one day it appears. I catch a glimpse of the vase. OMG!!! There is the vase!!! There is amazement. Yet, now that I can see it - it's totally obvious. It's nothing special at all. I forget about how elusive the white vase was. I may assume everyone can see the vase. It's so obvious and simple. Similarly, I've had many amazing insights that become "it's so simple and obvious" humdrum stuff, including: the I AM, nonlinear thinking, relativism, pure being emptiness, post-rational thinking, social fields of consciousness etc. It's easy to forget how many years of practice and study came prior to these revelations. And I often find myself assuming it's nothing special and obvious to everyone.

@Arhattobe There is no need to make it personal and become combative. It’s an impersonal observation and was not linked to your username. Relativism is a yellow stage mode of being, while objectivism is an Orange stage mode of being. Selectively pointing this out occasionally within threads can help Green stage readers get a feel for the difference as they evolve into Yellow. Yet, this comes at the expense of triggering some Orange stage readers.

Human minds are conditioned and immersed into relativity. Be mindful of the mind’s tendency to grasp relativity as objective truth.

@Igor82 Also, be aware if any of the solute is sticking to the syringe. If so, adding a small amount of lube to the water is helpful.

@kev014 @outlandish I was active in a Shambhala group in the U.S. for several years. I would say the community was solid healthy green free of religious dogma that occasionally touched Turquoise. Yet I was green centered at the time and would not have been highly conscious of Turquoise presence. My impression was that my Shambhala group was old school and that mainstream Shambhala across the country is getting westernized/bastardized into practical and feel good groups to appeal to a broader audience and have greater financial success.

@Emanyalpsid Its all good. ♥️ ?

I'd say my mind-body is in a fluid flow ranging from Green to Turquoise along various lines (intellectual, emotional, spiritual etc). For a while, I was firmly centered in Green. The strongest hurdle I had to get over was the deeply emotional connections with humanity - especially with people that are disadvantaged, marginalized and ostracized. People in poverty, the homeless, abused children, domestic violence victims, the mentally ill etc. Yellow seemed so cold to me and I thought I would stop caring for others if I evolved into Yellow. I'd say that the biggest change from tier1 to tier2 is an energetic shift from seeking for personal needs (tier 1) to seeking to experience the magnificence of life. Tier2 is transpersonal. There is a very different relationship with the person in the mind-body. I'd say psychedelics played a big role in transitioning to tier2. They gave me many yellow and turquoise level experiences. I was already centered in Green and within striking distance of tier2. Psychedelics boosted me into yellow and turquoise. When I returned to my Green level baseline consciousness, I was able to integrate these lessons and perspectives through meditation, yoga, journaling etc. Imo, psychedelics aren't a particularly effective spiritual tool until the Green stage. Jumping from blue/orange to yellow/turquoise is a really big jump and I can't imagine integrating it. For example, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what "nonlinear" and "post-logical" thinking is. Psychedelics showed with absolute clarity what this is. After a while, direct experience and lessons become embodied. There was a shift from thinking about it to being it. At first, my default thinking mode was logical and it took effort to think post-logically. Yet my brain has been rewired and the default is post-logical thinking. Thinking logically and rationally takes work now. And I find it boring and tiresome. . . I don't use psychedelics often anymore and small doses have a big effect on me. It's like those yellow and turquoise conscious states now arise even in a "sober" mind. As if the software of the brain was updated to a higher conscious level.

Nice work. I think overcoming debating is a huge deal. During my Orange stage, I was super analytical and got into lots of debates. These days, I don't find debates helpful for growth. Usually, both sides double-down on their opinion and try to be right and "win". Then, I noticed I was debating less and exploring more. Exploration is so much better for learning and growth. And so much more relaxing and fun. It seems limitless. How amazing is that?

@Emanyalpsid What is being pointed to is not being revealed at this time. It may reveal itself at another time or within another context.

@How to be wise You seem to have evolved quite a bit during the last year. Nice work.

This is one of the subtle beliefs I was referring to. You seem to be at peace expressing that you have completed the final journey. Are you equally at peace expressing that you have not completed the final journey?

I think trying to answer these questions would be a distraction at this time. It seems like you are exploring, inquiring, processing and integrating at deeper levels and I don't want to distract from that.

From a relative perspective, there is correct and incorrect. This is the perspective the mind is conditioned for. This is the perspective the mind becomes attached to and identified with. The process is not to destroy relative perspectives and adopt new beliefs that relative perspectives don't exist. The process is to dissolve the attachment and identification to relative perspectives. When a mind gets glimpses of absolute, it's tendency is to contextualize it in relativity - that is what the mind is conditioned to do. Or, the mind may try to embrace the absolute is true and reject the relative. In my journey, I embraced the absolute and sought to further experience nonduality. I began talking in nondual terms and challenging everyone speaking in relative terms. This was quite awkward and annoying to people. So, I isolated myself in my free time. Mediation, yoga and spending time in nature. This helped to embody the essence of presence/stillness/emptiness and gave contrast to relativity. As well, psychedelics helped because they created nondual realities and revealed lessons about distinctions. Eventually nondual be-ingness with and without psychedelics became as real as the conventional relative world. One of Leo's videos (I think the 10 Ox one), revealed the next stage in which the absolute and the relative become a unified whole. Absolute is Relative. Relative is Absolute.

From an absolute perspective, there is no true or false. From a relative perceptive, there is true and false. When those two perspectives are unified there is true/false and there isn't true false. Human minds are highly conditioned into the relative. At first, I think it's best to break that attachment and get as much direct experience in the absolute. Yet due to conditioning the mind will continually try to make relative sense of glimpses into the absolute. I've found when the mind is at peace in the absolute, a new perspective of the relative emerges. For a long time, I felt like I was "dancing between two worlds". My perception seemed to flip between the absolute and relative. Then, the two began to emerge as a unified whole. Part of the process is to let go of the mind's desire to grasp the relative.

Sure, we can call the dream real. We can also call it takishfet, yugoshoo and mikatalifunote. Real is Unreal and Real is not Unreal. There is no way to step outside of nothing/everything and objectively categorize some parts as being "real" and other parts as being "not real".

My sense is that there are some deep concepts being revealed. My sense is that there is a dynamic that is taking "ownership" of these concepts and believes they are true. Attachment to this cognitive dynamic evaporates with direct experience and embodiment. What you write (and I write) is no more true than a leaf falling from a tree. It is no more true than anything else written on this forum. Yet, I don't sense peace within that. I sense an attachment and belief that what you are writing is true.

Sure, finding "actual truths" can also be a fun game, depending on how it's played. It can also be a frustrating game. It's all within a dream. What is "actual" and "not actual" in Mario's World?

Of course. Yet, I sense attachment to subtle distinctions. There are hints of subtle beliefs.

Well sure, yet that is just a game. There are plenty of games with different rules and concepts. Yet it's all relative. There is no "particular moment", there is no "something", there is no "case". Those are all assumptions we make to make sense of things and communicate. At the end of the day, one cannot describe prior to meaning with meaning. That's just a fun game. In thousands of years, human consciousness will evolve to levels of consciousness we cannot currently imagine. Our current minds will seem so rudimentary and primitive. The current level of human awareness will seem like that of a dog to those future beings. Would our best explanation be valid to those highly advanced minds that laugh at our current puny minds? It's like a dog trying to figure out the nature of reality. It's just a humorous fun game.

That's one way of looking at it. Yet, be aware that no single perspective is "correct". Each perceptive is merely a pointer. There are many different pointers and it's easy to become attached to a particular pointer. Then, the mind becomes fixated on manipulating and developing the pointer, rather than the direct experience of that which is being pointed to. For example, it would also be "correct" to say that "it" is everything. Thus, reason is "it", since reason is within everything.

There are still subtle distinctions here. There are no questions or answers when all distinctions collapse. Go prior to the first word, sit and be. As soon as the first word arises, let it go and return prior to the word.

There are post-logical and nonverbal states of being, communication and explanations. Yet most of society has not evolved or developed those levels of consciousness. I've found that trying to explain the post-rational in rational terms to rationalists is not very effective. A mind needs to be open and willing to explore post-rational areas. Most minds are conditioned to focus on the pointer, not to relax into the direct experience of the ineffable nature of what is being pointed to. The words and concepts are the arm and hand - most minds get immersed in trying to make sense of the arm and hand. Human minds become fixated on the arm/hand pointer. The more words and concepts used, the stronger that fixation becomes. I've found it more effective to use the minimal amount of words and concepts and at times sprinkle in some post-rational essence to throw their logical mind off it's game.

@SoonHei Indeed. That which is sought is not to be found within the timeline. Only here and now. The journey is the goal. The journey is the finish line. Yet, it often takes a lot of seeking for that truth to be revealed in direct experience. With that awareness, can you sink deeper into pure BE-ingness?

Without the direct experience, that will not satisfy the ego. It will continue to think in distinctions: symbols, words and concepts. When there is peace in silent stillness, the seeking energy to make sense of it evaporates. It's like trying to use nonsense to make sense of nonsense. For example" "Is a triclof of winflick beyond the stiflet of jangdon if kamdrin is portek with latlim?". One indication of a mind that hasn't gone full monty is that the mind is still conceptualizing in any manner whatsoever. Even saying one word is too much.

About 10 years. From 2016-2018 was the deepest immersion. I have a job in which I can take 3 months off a year. I wasn't working when I lived in foreign countries. I think traditional career work would have been a distraction. I lived with locals, as a local. After about a month of immersion, the story of me began to dissolve. Not in an intellectual way like thinking "I know the story of me is an illusion". Rather in a very literal way. I literally began to forget who I was. I didn't interact with westerners or speak any English. Occasionally, a local would ask me about my "real life". At times, I didn't know how to answer the question. It took effort to remember what this character is. And it felt like I was talking about a movie character. Not in theory, in direct experience. When I returned to the States, I felt like an impostor, like I was pretending to be some movie character. The first week at work was really uncomfortable. I could only talk to my colleagues for a few seconds. I locked myself in my office or worked at home as much as I could. It took a couple weeks to relearn how to play the character. This was super important through my Green evolution. Now, any character is me. I would sit with someone and be their character, I "got" them. This created extremely strong empathy energy that at times was overwhelming. I would awareness of "me" and "them". When this energy arose with someone unaware of this empathy dynamic, a bizarre energy dynamic would arise. Part of Turquoise work is developing and taming those energetic channels in a responsible and mature manner.