Forestluv

That has been my experience. Yet, I have recontextualized science and it's not a traditional view of science anymore. I resonate more with Leonardo Da Vinci and Deepak Chopra these days. Both incorporate "science" into an integrated holistic view. I agree that tier1 scientists (the vast majority) are arrogant and make many assumptions. Yet, I think this will be reduced as there are more and more Yellow-level scientists. I regularly point out assumptions and scientific arrogance to my students and try to raise there consciousness to integrative, interconnected holism.

Can a mystic practice science? I would say once mysticism stages are reached the traditional scientific paradigm is destroyed and science becomes highly integrative with other fields to create a holistic mode of inquiry. I would say there is a lot of "science" within mysticism, yet scientists reject the mysticism in what they perceive to be outside their traditional scientific paradigm.

I agree. Turquoise level science will blow our minds. I hope to see it in my lifetime. I'm doing my best to pull my colleagues up, yet they are a stubborn bunch! If I pull too hard they think I've gone all Deepak Chopra on them

@Key Elements A great perspective. I like his approach and style. Very genuine. ? ♥️

@Emerald Thank you, this mirrors my development quite well. When I was Green-centered, the human connection and empathy was with those that are marginalized and abused. For example, what I perceived to be toxic masculinity and racism really bothered me, since I was empathizing with who I perceived to be the victims. Yet, heading into high Green and Yellow, I began seeing that both "perpetrator" and "victim" both suffered trauma and were acting out underlying insecurity, fear, trauma and suffering. Then, my sphere of empathy expanded to include more and more people. Yet as you mentioned, some people respond well to compassion and empathy while others will try to take advantage of it in manipulative and selfish ways. As a simple example, empaths are notoriously known for attracting narcissists that suck out all their empathetic energy.

I can see your perspective and I respect your right to have that perspective.

No. I am saying that I, myself, am not bypassing on a relative level. It is something I worked on as I developed into relative modes of being. And yes, my ego can become a devil at times within this realm. Yet, I genuinely don't get the sense I am doing that here. I am only making one distinction here: non-5-meo direct experience and 5-meo-direct experience. The details of the non-5-meo direct experience is irrelevant. It's all non-5-meo experience. It's not about you at all since you don't have any 5-meo experience. In the language analogy, I am simply saying you don't have direct experience speaking Chinese. Your manner of speaking English is irrelevant.

@Arthur well said ? ♥️

@Key Elements I acknowledge that relative bypassing is devilry and something to be aware of. The ego can be self-righteous in various ways. I acknowledge that my direct experience is inherently biased in a relative mode of being. Yet, I don't think I am bypassing with relativity here. In this instance, I am sharing my direct experience about 5-meo. I am not saying my 5-meo direct experience has more value than your 5-meo direct experience. You don't have any 5-meo direct experience, so there is no disagreement. You don't have any 5-meo experience for me to disagree with. Since a non-5-meo perspective is radically different than a 5-meo perspective, I think it is fair to draw a distinction between the two.

@CreamCat You seem to be operating from an Orange perspective. Nothing wrong with that. I spent about 15 yrs. centered in Orange. Just keep in mind that Emerald is coming from a Green / Yellow perspective. Within Orange, personal improvement and striving toward personal goals has a lot of value. From a Green perspective, human connection and being a member within communities is highly valued.

@SQAAD Within the current scientific paradigm, no. Within more highly developed paradigms, it depends on your definition of "explain". Future scientific paradigms will shed deep insights into consciousness. Yet in the end, absolute consciousness is ineffible, so no construct can full explain it - including science, mysticism, art, spirituality etc. They are all partial truths. Even fully integrated as a holistic perspective, it will still fall short since saying even a single word is too much.

My perspective on this based on both sober and 5-meo experience. My understanding is you don't have any direct experience with 5-meo, which limits the conversation to primarily one perspective. Regarding physical changes, I would say that if someone took psychedelics and fully returned to a purely physical perspective in the sober mind state, there wold not be any physical changes, yet the relationship to that physical orientation while sober might change temporarily. From a pure psychedelic perspective, the question does not make sense because it assumes the construct of a physical reality and psychedelics will not accept that assumption. One must surrender that assumption to enter the psychedelic realm. When returning, one must accept that assumption to return to a sober physical perspective. Again, I am not taking sides and saying one perspective has more value than another. I am being a diplomatic advocate for both perspectives. Lastly, I wold say that within a holistic perspective that integrates both psychedelic and traditional sober constructs that there are simultaneously both physical changes and no physical changes. Overall, the answer is no, yes and both/neither - depending on the perspective. These answers will not make sense from only one perspective. Yet, from an integrated perspective based on direct experience of both sober and psychedelic mindsets - it makes sense.

That is true from one side of the coin. To fully understand the language analogy one would need to have fluency in both languages. From the perspective of only one language, it won't make sense.

I know you are not flipping the question. I am, because there are two equal sides of the coin (which later get integrated into One). From the psychedelic perspective, those questions don't make sense. I give equal weight to both perspectives. It's somewhat similar to a person speaking Chinese and a person speaking Spanish. The Spanish speaker insists we speak in Spanish. Yet both languages are on equal footing and preference should not be given to either language. A person fluent in both Chinese and Spanish will understand this. Such a person can communicate with both Chinese and Spanish speakers. Further, such a bilingual person can integrate the two languages and go much deeper.

I would flip that question and ask if there are any changes in the psychedelic environment as a result of a sober trip. For me, it's a really difficult question to answer based on the terms "changes" and "environment", since there is no objective measure of what constitutes "environment". The best I can say is that the relationship to the environment matures. Sober and psychedelic environments are both different and the same. Yet in the beginning, they appear very different and 99% of the people I see with psychedelic experiences speak as if they are only different. It takes a lot of work to integrate toward sameness. As well, I think there is a misconception that psychedelics are some type of magic bullet. They can be in terms of sudden awakening. Yet in terms of personal and spiritual development, psychedelic integration takes a lot of investment and integration work. It's like someone saying "I want to quickly learn to speak Chinese fluently in the next few months to jump start my career".

In what context are you using the term "environment"?

I agree. That is a grounded perspective and a mature path. I walked a similar path for over 20yrs and it goes deep. And I only scratched the surface. For example, you speak of LP as a spiritual tool in a sophisticated way. I haven't had much direct experience with that. I had separated my life into separate categories of career, health, relationships and spirituality. I've only begun to integrate them together.

It's not a matter of classifying psychedelics as "good" or "bad". It is context-dependent. Psychedelics can be helpful and they can be counter-productive. They can be beneficial or harmful. It's context-dependent.

From the perspective of 5-meo you are giving more weight to a traditional sober reality. You are not aware of this because you haven't done 5-meo. The correct response to my response is to do 5-meo 10+ times.

@Key Elements Thank you. I'm not sure if he had over 100 trips with a variety of psychedelics, a variety of doses in a variety of settings. If so, his experience would be ONE perspective that could integrate the two (just like my experience is simply one perspective). Ram Dass or myself are not an objective truth about psychedelics or spirituality. Yet, Ram Dass and myself can both contribute to the conversation based on direct experience. The next step is to take over 100 beings with over 20+ years of substance-free spiritual experience + over 100 psychedelic trips that have been integrated at the individual level and integrate the direct experience of those 100 beings to form a higher-order holistic perspective. Imo, to earn a seat at the table, someone would need extensive experience with both substance-free and psychedelic spirituality. Yet, that is simply one seat at the table.

I'm interested in "enlightened masters" that have decades of substance-free spiritual work as well as over 100 psychedelic trips in which the lessons were integrated with intensive meditation, yoga, contemplation and direct inquiry. Those are the enlightened masters that can speak from direct experience from both sides and are more qualified to encourage or discourage the use of psychedelics depending on the developmental stage and personality dynamic of the seeker. You are giving more weight to "sober enlightenment". It would be like saying let's hear from someone who has tripped over 100 times, yet has never done any spiritual work. It's not one or the other. It's an integrated whole.

I did over 20yrs. of substance-free spiritual work as well as three years of spiritual work that has included a variety of psychedelics, including 5-meo. I think there is a lot of value in both. Imo, any contextualization of 5-meo from a sober mindset will fall short. I had to go there to find out and I can say with 100% honesty it was not like anything I could have imagined and trying to evaluate the pros and cons of 5-meo without direct experience is extremely limited and ultimately futile. The other thing I did (and see others doing) is to assume the sober mindset is the "real" one and 5-meo is a tool to learn things that can be applied to one's "real life". In my personal experience, this is incorrect. The 5-meo reality is as real as the sober reality. It's not like 5-meo is a tool to gain insights to apply to "real life". Rather than use the term "application", we use the term "integration" of the 5-meo reality with sober reality. From a strictly sober perspective, 5-meo is an altered state of consciousness. From a 5-meo perspective, the sober mind is an altered state of consciousness. Once the two are placed on similar levels and one is not "more real" than another, we can integrate the two. Over time with practice, the two move closer and closer to form an integrated whole. As well, I think the baseline conscious level of the mind-body is very important. I had a 20+ year spiritual foundation before I took my first psychedelic. I think this strong foundation was essential. I found it very challenging to integrate the two and I can't imagine trying to integrate without a strong spiritual foundation. Also ime, psychedelics were absolutely awful for personal development, it did the opposite: personal deconstruction and obliteration. It took me about 20 diverse trips to develop the experience and skills necessary to integrate with the personality. *This is just based on my direct experience of "both sides" and I don't speak as any type of authority. As well, my description is limited because I am trying to communicate within the limited structure of traditionally sober reality.

For sure that independence is true from one perspective. From another perspective, we are interconnected. Just like you have lots of neurotransmitters bouncing around in your brain, people are like neurotransmitters to each other in a collective brain. Your brain is not independent from this interconnected system. Consider that the microorganisms in your gut communicate with your brain through your vagus nerve. That gut microbiome influences your brain activity and what you think, perceive and feel. Those microorganisms are part of your brain and who you are. Furthermore, that bacteria helps regulate your metabolism and immune system. It would be inaccurate for to say "I am independent from the bacteria in my gut". That bacteria in your gut is literally you, they are one of the screenwriters creating the story you call "me". From this perspective, we are not independent from our environment. An individual is not separate - it is within an interconnected whole.

@Seiden Sounds like you got a spoonful of Now with the Ox. ??

@Emerald Do you think a higher societal consciousness is arising that is aware of the underlying trauma and pain fueling unhealthy subcultures? If so, that could help recontextualuze the problem and allow some healing.