Forestluv

@Truth Addict I think I've gone through a similar process. It sounds like intellectual intelligence is dominating over emotional and social intelligence. Notice how the mind wants to downgrade emotional and social intelligence by referring to it as a "problem" (in quotes) and subconsciously suggesting it is the other people's problem and how can I best deal with their problem. As well, notice how the mind calls it an "innocent offense problem". The sneaky ego loves to consider itself the innocent good guy. For me, this went on for years and years. I defaulted to the thinking mind and rarely experienced truly deep emotional connections with others. I didn't flow in social groups. I didn't pick up on unstated needs of others. Quite often someone would end up upset and would be bewildered how I didn't know. I would say "Why didn't you just tell me!!??". As I transitioned into Green, I became aware that I was over-intellectual at the expense of emotional and social intelligence. My empathy and intuition was quite low. I had to take responsibility and stop focusing on others. I spent a lot of time developing Green skills of empathy, connection, vulnerability, intuition etc and my emotional and social intelligence has significantly increased. It has opened up a whole new world. It has attracted new friends and a girlfriend at depths of connections I never knew existed. There are emotional and social realms that are unbelievably mind-body blowing. You describe a Green-level deficiency. One of the major lessons of Green is embodying intent vs. impact. Notice how you are focused on intent and just beginning to notice impact. It also relates to subjective experience and developing a strong empathetic ability. For my progress, I decreased my intellectualizing in half and doubled my time working on the emotional/social level.

@MM1988 Direct experience is more profound than intellectualizing. During your mediation, observe your mind as if it was under a microscope. Pay close attention to the arising of thoughts and actions. From where do thoughts, choices and actions arise. Are you the author of your thoughts? Is there a chooser? Is there a doer? Don't get caught into the trap of intellectualizing. The true realization is through direct experience. The mental intellectualization is a distraction and a trick the ego uses to maintain control of the narrative. Don't fall into that trap. Sit and observe intensely. If you dare. . .

@outlandish If you enjoyed that, check out this recent Cell paper on the effect of psychedelics on neurogenesis in cell culture. DMT and LSD are potent simulators of neural growth and neural plasticity (the ability to form new neural synapses and strengthen synapses). In particular, check out figs. 1A,B and 2A, I. Psychedelics are as potent as our own endogenous neurotrophic factor, BDNF. Dramatic and exciting stuff. https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/pdf/S2211-1247(18)30755-1.pdf

We are all neurotransmitters to each other in the big collective brain

How can you determine the feeling isn't part of the illusion?

@Paul92 Joy and Sorrow are two sides of the same coin. Upon transcendence, they are one. http://www.katsandogz.com/onjoy.html

Real is so limited and burdensome. Illusion is infinite and freely flowing. Which movie would you rather participate in? 1. Physicists debate about the atomic interactions within an apple. Highly detailed, analytical and logical. Lots of debate about which atomic model is the most accurate representation. Egos all over the place, trying to be right. 2. An illusory dream world filled with mysticism. An exploration into magical realms beyond imagination. A world filled with wonder and magnificence. Movie 1: Omg my head hurts. Is this almost over yet? Movie 2:

@Paul92 Why are you giving more relevance to intellectual constructs that have been conditioned into your mind over the magnificence of your direct experience? Let go and dive into that direct experience. It goes much much deeper. The magnificence of life.

@giglio Evolving through each SD stage involves a transition, crisis and resistance - at both the individual conscious level and the collective conscious level. It is part of the evolution. Community connection, love and welfare over self-centered excessive individual separation and materialism. It seems some traditional libertarian conditioning is restricting your evolution and expansion. Many of your concerns are focused on an extreme blue/orange level government. If government evolved to Green-centered, it would be expressed very differently. If you go full Green, you won't go back. It is sooo much deeper and meaningful than Orange and traditional libertarianism. I found traveling and immersing myself within various cultures helped expand my consciousness and evolution into Green. As well, Leo made high quality videos on Orange and Green. In particular, the end of the Orange video and beginning of the Green video focuses on the stage transition. Yet theory is quite limited. One really needs to immerse themselves in the direct experience for embodiment.

This song is so beautiful. Oozing Green Love. Thanks for sharing it @ajasatya

@ajasatya Dang, that song is sooo beautiful

I posted a link above that gives a thourough explanaion, perhaps that may help. It sounds like you have some pre-conceptions. No one is calling it a utopia and work is needed to improve and continue to evolve into yellow. Yet it is more evolved than the terminus of capitalism. Green emphasizes collective consciousness and community welfare, which is more evolved than self-centered profits and material gains over community welfare. As well, according to SD lower stages are not rejected, they are embodied into higher stages. So, aspects of Orange will be present in Green. For example, a hallmark of Orange is rational thinking. One doesn’t reject and stop rational thinking when they evolve to Green and Yellow.

@Quicksilver Green is calling for democratic socialism, not socialism. https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/

Letting go of gender role assumptions and expectations is liberating and opens up a whole new world.

Sounds like some control issues to me.

@How to be wise Every developmental stage has it's traps. They get more subtle and nuanced the deeper we go.

Be careful seeking refuge within nonduality. During initial immature stages of nonduality it's common to embrace nonduality and reject duality. Yet with more maturity, there is an integration between the nondual and dual. This thread has a few newbies misusing the absolute level.

Observe how you are using relativism/absolutism. You are using it at a Tier1 level and saying that each level is merely relative to that level. You then you add in absolutism by saying each relative level is equivalent. That is a misuse of relativism/absolutism. For example, Yellow cognition utilizes integrative and systemic thinking and is at a much higher level than Blue level binary thinking. Blue is limited to binary thinking while Yellow can utilize binary thinking AND rational, logical, integrative, relative and systemic thinking. To suggest they are on relative equal planes is nonsense. Imagine an alcoholic that has lost his job and beats his wife and kids. The wife tells him "I think you have a drinking problem and are harming the family". The alcoholic responds "Well, that is just your relative perspective. My relative perspective is that I am a wonderful father and everything is fine. Both of our perspectives are relative and there is no value difference". That is a twisted and absurd use of relativism. A key to relativism and absolutism is that they are trans-personal. This is an enormous jump in consciousness. You are using the concepts at a personal level to rationalize false equivalencies. It's a form of an Orange level "both sides do it" argument. It is allowed in the context of actualization, consciousness, Spiral Dynamics etc. It is not allowed in the context of propagandizing.

That is a Blue/Orange perspective looking up at Green. That doesn't sound like an accurate description. Green is much healthier than Orange. It's not a "necessary evil". That would be like saying "romantic relationships based on love, emotional connection, mutual support and heart-to-heart communication has it's limitations, however it is a necessary stage that we will eventually grow out of". This statement is nonsense when one considers that Orange relationships are much more self-centered and involve much more conflict. Based on what you wrote, it sounds like an Orange-level biased and inaccurate portrayal of Spiral Dynamics. If you are interested in that perspective, go for it. I wouldn't read it. Have you watched Leo's series on SD and seen the mega-thread examples? These are at a much higher level and have tons of historical and political examples.

There are different expressions of Yellow. I can see a yellow-level thinker phrasing it in terms of "advantages". It's just not my form of expression. The term has some underlying logic associated with it. For example, imagine having a genuine crush on a gal. It is a pure, genuine, innocent liking. You just want to be with her and do whatever, as long as you are together. On the way to her house, a desire arises within you to bring her her favorite ice cream, so you stop at the parlor to get a scoop to go. The motivation has nothing to do with "advantages". The person isn't thinking "If I get her some ice cream, she will think I am a thoughtful guy and that will give me an advantage over other guys and improve my chances to get in her pants". Tier 2 motivation is before all that. It is much closer to the source. Yet, I'm fusing in some Turquoise here and I can see how a pure Yellow-perspective could use a framework of advantages - it just wouldn't be for a personal advantage. It would be more along the lines of social engineering advantages. I would agree on the absolute level, since in the absolute relative value collapses. Yet this is a Tier2 level interpretation that nothing is intrinsically valuable. If someone in Tier1 was using that phrase in a relative context to gain leverage in their argument, I would disagree. I would use extreme caution when using the absolute in a relative sense, it can cause a lot of harm at the human level. That statement would have very different meaning depending on whether it arose from an Orange or Yellow level. From an Orange perspective, that statement could be used to protect one's own perspective and neutralize higher evolved perspectives. Even Yellow can assign more value to certain perspectives. It's not until Turquoise until value/validity constructs collapse. Again, be careful about using the absolute on the relative human level. This can cause a lot of confusion and harm. For example, in the absolute, there is no separate distinction from a wealthy dictator and the poor people he tortures. Yet should we throw our hands up and say "Well there is no value difference here. Let's just move along. . . " On the relative level, I would assign value and support actions that stop the mal-treatment of humans. At the absolute level, there is absolute love for both the dictator and those he tortures. It's really important how one uses the statement "there is no value/validity difference" along the spiral. Turquoise ventures into nonverbal post-reason areas. It is three levels higher than logic/reason based Orange level thinking. Turquoise is incomprehensible to Orange. I would say Yellow is the big jump that sees much deeper and nuanced aspects of complexity. Turquoise has a much better understanding of distinctions. Turquoise can also allow distinctions to dissolve and can see deeper levels of simplicity and singularity. Overall, you raise some great questions and thoughts. I've enjoyed the conversation.

@Eric Tarpall I think it is easier for the mind to get direct experience with one "everything" than nothing. Look around your room and imagine there is one everything. Now pick up a thing that is not everything. A pen? Nope. A chair? Nope. A thought? Nope. So, there is no thing. Your question about connectivity assumes a concept of connectivity you will need to let go of to have direct experience as one everything.

I think there is a balance between seeking enlightenment and forming expectations about what enlightenment is like. I notice many people getting immersed into an enlightenment story that may never end. Consider Leo's 10 Ox video. Once you get a good look at the Ox, can you ever "unsee" it? Well, no. Yet, can a mind-body get distracted and become re-immersed in it's self? Well, yea. With that said, a good look at the Ox is extremely powerful and can fundamentally alter the orientation and experience of a mind-body. Yet, there is still more development after seeing the Ox. That is like stage 4 of 10. Imagine you are a child that is curious what an electrical outlet does. So you stick your finger in the outlet and electrocute yourself. Is that realization and direct experience permanent? Sort of. It depends how you look at it.

I did my best trying to form analogies with your concerns - that's why I wrote "seems to suggest". Your second question is a very good existential question. When a mind-body is yellow-centered there is understanding of relativism. Both moral relativism as well as deeper, broader relativism. Yet, yellow still lacks a full understanding / direct experience of the absolute/nonduality and has not yet begun Turquoise-level integration of nonduality with duality. So, yellow understands their own perspective is relative and they see some value in all perspectives and all spiral stages - yet can see more value in some perspectives than others. Yellow loves to integrate perspectives to form holistic perspectives. I find it difficult to answer in rational terms why raising the collective level is valuable. It's getting into post-rational tier 2 zones. The best I can do is to say that Tier 2 is not about self need desires. It's not about being right, looking good, winning arguments, getting my way etc. It is about exploring and experiencing the magnificence of life. There is a genuine desire that others experience and share in this magnificence. As a personal example, a few months ago I was laying with a lover and my mind-body was experiencing deep love and connection. It wasn't about me or her. We melted away. It was direct experience with a deep love that I wasn't aware even existed. I layed there wishing that everyone in the world could experience this. It was an extremely strong desire and it had nothing to do with my personal wants or needs. It was so powerful it motivated me to explore how I might learn to channel this deep love to others. Why did this desire arise? I don't know. It's not something I can explain in rational terms.

@outlandish I'm by no means an expert on DMN function and brain circuitry is interconnected - so there is no discrete DMN network independent of other brain activity. My understanding is that the DMN is necessary, yet insufficient, for a sense of self. Nearly all humans have a baseline level of self - we contextualize our lives relative to how it impacts our sense of self. There are different degrees of connectivity. Most people can temporarily step outside this self and observe the self, at least temporarily. For example, some people may focus on how their father harmed them and how their problems in life are due to their upbringing. Yet when guided, most people could see another point of view. For example, a psychologist may ask to consider things from the father's point of view. Perhaps the father grew up in an abusive house and his father abandoned him. Perhaps the father had children too young and was in over his head. Most people could pause and think "yea, I hadn't thought about it like that before". . . As well, most people are not self consumed all day. They may go hiking and lose their self in nature for a little while. The thought examples I gave were arising from DMN hyper-connectivity and activity. An extreme form of self immersion and self defensiveness. This could be expressed through narcissism or depression. Or, extreme goal setting and ambition. I would predict the Wolf of Wall Street guy had extreme DMN activity. My understanding is that the DMN is within a larger network for thinking. For example, abstract (non-self) thinking is centered outside the DMN. As well, the DMN may be reinforced through other brain areas such as the amygdala (a fear center). And hyper-DMN activity can inhibit other brain function and experience - such as the insular region associated with a sense of empathy. I'd love to see some brain scans on Trump. I'd predict a hyper-active DMN and amygdala and repressed insula. Below is a recent research article of psilocybin-based treatment for resistant-depression. Consistent with previous work, the brain scans indicated that during the psilocybin trip there was DMN disintegration, global integration and amygdala repression. After treatment, patients were categorized as responders and nonresponders. Amygdala repression was temporary and returned to normal activity. The DMN re-integrated in all patients, yet there were differences of DMN re-integration between responders and nonresponders. The authors hypothesized that complete DMN disintegration serves as a "reset" and allows the DMN to re-integrate in a healthier manner (I would add that post-treatment therapy during the re-integration is likely to be helpful). https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-13282-7