Forestluv

@Highest Super! One comment about the sense that a person “knows” another and connections. There is the type of knowing, connection and loving bonds that form over time. A couple learns about their life stories and there is shared experience over time. In the timeline, a couple can grow together and create things together. There is also a timeless knowing and connection in the Now dimension. It is nit time dependent. It is either there or not. One cannot create it or destroy it. It just is. It’s a type of magic. There is a form of love in the Now and a form of love that develop ms in the timeline. Ime, both are important. Yet I often see imnature beings (including myself in the past), confuse the two. Most often, it is immaturely thinking that the timeline love is occurring now without proper development. Yet be aware that there is a form of love prescence that has nithing to do with time and development. I’ve met a few gals in with that love presence. Immediate. Yet of course there was an absence of the developmental form of love. If the gal starts feels that prescence love and starts talking about how we are a great match, long-term prospects, she feels like she has known me for years etc, I know she is confusing the timeless prescence love as developmental love. Its a red flag for me. I’m much more comfortable with a gal that says we have great chemistry in the Now and lets see what happens in the timeline. And I agree with @SFRL about first date vibes, conversation and flirting. Yet if I’m interested in long term potential, I won’t sleep with her until at least the third date.

@Lazy Self No all caps. Against forum guidelines. This time, I’ll give the warning to the pumpkin puree. Just don’t do it again.

@Sharp I just tried to stop life happening and I can’t make it stop. . .

Yea, I like ruprt spiras analogy of the movie screen on this one. I would say your integration stage is one step further than what I described as pure detachment. Because what I’m calling pure detachment still has subtle separation. There is a some thing to be aware of. I think the “observer + object” stage can be a big step for novices, yet it can be a big trap as well. I spent 20 years in this space and have observed meditation teachers and monks in this space.

@FoxFoxFox Well said ?

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I understand what you are saying. I’ve been to the null void of Mu and back again. I’ve seen that movie. I’m talking about something different. Notice how what you are saying did NOT come from the pov of the tree. And that you are not able communicate with trees. It seems like you may have had some nondual experience that got recontextualized at the human level. Ime, that is the key to transcending the human level - to become aware of contextualization at the human level. If you got recontextualuzed at the level of a mouse or rock we would be communicating very differently right now. I can tell you that the tree is pointing to something different than you. This is not something the human can do. That is humanism. One must actually go and sit by the tree and communicate. It is a form of conversation. This is a higher level of communication that requires development of specialized modes of communication. For those of you interested in developing such skills. . . if you have reached the trans-personal level and want to evolve higher, the eye gazing practice is good for entry - yet you would need to find another being that has reached a trans-personal level. Sit in a meditative posture facing each other and gaze into each other’s eyes for 30 minutes. This is post-intellectual, there should be very few thoughts and the few thoughts that pass by should be far way. As if they are quiet creeks in the floor you don’t even notice. . . This is all nonverbal, nonintellectual. It is also beyond feeling, yet it’s much closer to feelings than thoughts, so it’s ok if there are backfound feelings. Yet front and center are empathetic and intuitive modes. You have a conversation like you’ve never had before. And it is a conversation that transcends time and space. The next step would be do do the eye gazing with another species. I like to do it with dragon flies. The advantage with humans is that if you find a high conscious person good at it, they can pull you out n and up if you surrender to it. The advantage I find with dragonflies is that they don’t have a human personality construct that gets in the way. Although the eye gazing will be much shorter time frame.

No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. This is contracted within the human dynamic. Surrender all of this. Surrender your humanness and become teachable. Sit by an old tree and allow her wisdom to teach you. Transcending the personal self is insufficient for this. One must also transcend the human level. That is why I consider it to be an internediate level. There are many modes of communication. The modes can be integrated. Intuitive, empathetic, verbal modes etc can be integrated. I communicated this essence with a high level Native American woman by combining energetic fields with empathy and two verbal words said in a certain way. She knew exactly what I was conveying and I also knew she knew by receiving. This stuff about pointers and not being able to communicate is early development at the higher levels. There are powerful wands of communication at higher levels.

This is very far away. There is a whole realm you are missing. There appears to be an underlying belief here that trees cannot communicate with you. This is a form of humanism that will block a human from entering this realm.

That is from a human approach. Set all that aside and connect with the tree. Become humble and surrender your humanness. Allow the tree to become your teacher. Communicate with the tree. She may reveal to you an essence of post-human enlightenment. Ime, this takes a deep level of openness, humility and surrender. Then grace may arise. Or maybe not. One cannot approach this as a human. That is why I consider it to be at an intermediate level.

Any distinction is a form of dualism. Regarding the I am God thing. . . People get confused and twisted because they conflate the personal relative “I” with the absolute level of God. And most people have a ton of preconceived ideas of God which is a hindrance. I think the phrase “I am everything” can be more helpful. Said another way, they are conflating duality and nonduality due to lack of experience with nonduality.

One at a novice level: what is the color of sound? Quality koans are post-intellectual. They exhaust the intellectual mind to the point of surrender at which point a post-intellectual insight arises. It’s not thought. It’s also not feeling. Yet closer to a feeling than thoughts. The ones at begginner levels can somewhat be conveyed through thought. Yet I’d say intermediate and higher is full-on post-intellectual. I love watching the old crusty zen monks slap the faces of students that give intellectual answers.

Nope. That answer went through a human filter.

Getting warm. . .

Beginner level. . . Intermediate level: What is the essence of enlightened expression through a tree?

@8Ball I just wanted to say its cool to hear that you are pursuing your natural interest and passion. I'm in the sciences, yet we probably have a lot of overlap intellectually. My mind naturally loves abstract thinking and conceptualization. Even after 15 years of higher education, I only earn an average salary, yet I get three months off a year and get paid to conceptualize for hours every day.

Guys, consider that language breaks down in Turquoise. Turquoise is post verbal, post-intellectual and post-rational. Turquoise is trans-human. It cannot be verbally explained, yet we can sorta point to aspects of it. We have barely scratched the surface of Turquoise and very few people in the world are centered here. Also be mindful that one cannot comprehend two levels higher than where they are centered. So that means very very few people will have any inkling at all regarding the essence of coral. Perhaps psychedelics can temporarily boost someone centered in Turquoise up briefly into coral. Imagine Leo doing a Coral video and just standing there staring at the camera for two hours. You would be like "wtf is going on?". Of course, because you are not in tune with the coral quasi photonmetric immaterial particles emanating from inter-dimensional platforms through multi-frequencies.

It's kind of like that in spirituality. The equivalent of a black belt would be the "turquoise" realm. Just like a black belt BJJ, once a mind-body goes turquoise, the rabbit hole is sooo deep. Maybe someday turquoise belt masters will develop paranormal abilities and compete.

That's a good point. @Tony 845 You can temporarily reach black belt spiritual master levels with 5-meo. It's like transforming into a black belt BJJ for 10 minutes. With your background and desire it seems like it might be a good fit for you. In some Zen traditions they have a progression of stages/levels. The high level monks get a sense of a students development. It can be done for relative conscious levels. There are some high conscious people that can get a feel for people's levels. Egos of course may enter, yet that is part of the spiritual development and teachers would have a feel for that. I'm thinking of UFC fighters and how some are skilled in wrestling, others in BJJ, others in Boxing etc. In our spiritual dojo there could be spiritual masters specialized in energetic fields, reiki, breathing, astral projection, bending reality, self healing, yoga etc. What a cool place that would be to practice and interact with other "wizards". Dr. Strange kind of stuff.

You mentioned you participate in BJJ. I have an analogy with BJJ I like. I'm thinking about spirituality like BJJ. My limited understanding of BJJ is that there are different styles and many different skills to develop: strength, flexibility, intuition, knowledge, balance etc. I would would think there are many different ways to train and one needs to train in many different areas to become a BJJ master. Yet even a BJJ master can develop more or even create new stuff. Similarly, spirituality has many different components and practices. There is breathing, concentration, yoga, contemplation. There are so many realizations and insights. There are awakenings of the mind, the heart. There are empathetic and intuitive modes. There are so many different areas to develop to become a "black belt" spiritual master.

I think you are giving too much weight to the intellect. I see being as one integrated system, including the intellect. Yet if I had to separate the modes of being, I would give roughly equal weight to each mode - empathetic, emotional, intuitive, intellectual etc. However, I think most personality constructs identify most strongly with the intellectual mode, followed by the emotional mode. I would say thoughts and feelings are integrated. When the intellect and emotional modes are at odds, mind-conflict tensions and neurosis can arise. It seems like your intellect wants to be in charge and wants to run the show. Nothing wrong with that, yet it doesn't need to be that way. There have been studies showing how the intellect can influence the body. For example, thinking of positive experiences in stressful environments can reduce stress hormone levels. Yet there are limits. if a body is being burned alive in a fire, thinking it isn't real won't do much imo. As I've said many times, I think beingness is an integration of many modes of being - including the thinking intellect. So I would say most beings are in ignorance of the dream realization due to dynamics within the intellectual (thinking), emotional (feeling), empathetic modes etc. Becoming aware of the delusions of the intellect is the first level. In consciousness work, nearly every human body first has awakenings within the intellectual system because this is the system most identified with. Many will stop here. Once the intellect is transcended, the next level of exploration is generally within the emotional modes of being, which in part includes experiences. Imo, this is much more advanced. Most mind-bodies will want to stay immersed exploring the intellectual mode, which is of no surprise since they identify most strongly with the intellectual mode. I'd estimate only about 2% of conscious seekers that have mostly transcended the intellectual mode have also transcended the emotion/heart mode. A good example would be Ken Wilber. As a minor point of clarity: rather than saying I am at a high level - I think it would be more accurate to say that the self construct in my mind body has dissolved to a great degree. I'd estimate about 70% or so. The personality still re-appears and there are delusions - especially when interacting with other personalities. Self dissolution can be both beneficial and problematic when trying to relate to other beings without immersion in the self. As you said, sometimes I see someone immersed in a common personality dynamic and I have to think back and remember what that was like. So at the personal level, I think you are right. There are times when there is a disconnect - I am viewing things at a trans-personal level, while they are at a personal level. For example, I often express observations that are completely impersonal that people take personally. For example, I may express an observation of an insecurity dynamic occurring in someone. This would be no different than expressing an observation that an ant is crawling on their arm. Yet often humans will take the insecurity observation personally and get all defensive. I have to think back when I used to do that. These days, that only happens in my mind-body about once a month. I don't believe every physical or mental illness or disorder is due to past traumas. Yet I do think past traumas are one variable that contributes to many mental/physical disorders. This gets into some complex integration of the timeline, the Now, the individual mind-body and the collective mind-body. I don't think one can separate each of those components. Can something arise independent of one of those features? Perhaps, yet that gets into some deep metaphyscial realms that go beyond the intellect. Here, I think we need to be careful with a phrase like "no apparent reason". Quite often something arises. To the human, it may seem like "no apparent reason", yet that might just mean we are not aware of underlying mechanics that give rise to that appearance. Again, I'm saying trauma is one variable in an integrated system. There can be many variables. For some conditions certain variables are huge risk factors, for other conditions each variable is a minor risk factor. For example, a mutant allele for the Huntington gene will lead to a neurological disease. That is the only variable. If a mind-body has this mutant allele, there is a 100% chance they will have the disease. There has never been an exception. In contrast, we know of about 40 variables that contribute Schizophrenia. Each variable only slightly increases the chance of schizophrenia by about 1-10%. Some mental conditions involve few variables, others are complex. Disorders like OCD, ADD, anxiety disorder, PTSD are complex and have many variables. I agree here. There are physical conditions in which awareness doesn't help - at least not at our current understanding. For example, someone who has suffered a spinal cord injury and becomes paralyzed. Medical stem cell treatment can restore some function. Yet, awareness and meditation has no effect in curing paralysis - maybe in the 100-200 years it will. Other conditions, like neuroses and chronic headaches can be often be cured through awareness, meditation and self healing visualizations. Yet it's not either / or. Consider something like PTSD - I think this is a case where a combination of medical and awareness treatment is beneficial. Awareness of underlying psychological dynamics can release. Yet as I mentioned, PTSD is also a brain injury. The genetic architecture in the brain is restructured. At this point, it doesn't look like awareness can reverse the physical alterations. I think it has potential to do so, yet this is some VERY high level awareness in which awareness is entering the brain and physically altering the chemical properties of specific target DNA sequences. This is a higher level than Deepak Chopra. I've caught glimpses of this potential, yet I'd say we are at least 100 years away from this level of awareness therapy.

The problem arises when a self constrains enlightenment on the personal level. If your desire is to stay on the personal level, then do personal development work. Save your self years of futile searching. Enlightenment work involves transcending the personality. It includes the personality AND more. It is much more expansive. The entire personality construct is within it. Trying to limit it to the personality will cause confusion and frustration in the mind-body. It is like thinking the ocean is a personality and saying "Michael Phelps is an ocean", "Is that swimmer over there an ocean?", "How can I become an ocean?". This mindset will keep a person in limbo seeking mode forever. The key is that a self has to surrender that it will not become an ocean no matter how hard it tries. Nothing can oceanize a person. The personality is swimming within the ocean. Yet so are all the fish, seaweed, algae, bacteria etc. It's all within the ocean. Everything. Yet the mind will resist this because it is obsessed with becoming oceanized.

Yes, I understand. This view/experience is tapping into nonduality. Yet its not the full monty. This view/experience is melting into the natural world and becoming the ISness of the natural world. Yet it is also making distinctions and includes separateness. To truly go beyond all paradigms and falsehoods, one word is too many. What is being viewed/experienced above is a profound and beautiful aspect of nonduality. Ime, it is much easier to enter nondual states in nature. Nature is a very powerful teacher of nonduality and ISness.

The below comments are general impersonal comments about the idea presented above. The below comments are not directed at the OP. The misunderstanding is due to an idea of enlightenment on the personal level. In this idea, there is an association between enlightenment and the personality. The question above challenges that association and allows the opportunity to transcend a level, if the self can let go of it's attachment to its idea of enlightenment. The trap here is to try and answer the question on the same personal level it was asked. Yet to answer the question, we must venture to higher levels. . . Enlightenment is not at the level of the person. It even goes beyond trans-personal and trans-human. At the trans-personal level the question "If Osho was Enlightned why did he end up addicted to drugs?" is the same as asking "If Alan Watts was enlightened, why did Osho end up addicted to drugs?". What I did here was to break the association of enlightenment as being on the personal level. At the trans-personal level, the two questions are equal. However, the psychological self will have a very difficult time surrendering to this because the self wants to keep the idea of enlightenment at the personal level - because at this level it is something the self believes it can attain. For those of you with direct experience at the trans-personal level, let's venture up another level. . . Some human minds have become aware of the trans-personal, yet are still attached to humanism. That is, enlightenment is not attained by the illusory self, yet it is attained by the human mind-body. This is deceptively sneaky. At the trans-human level the question ""If Osho was Enlightned why did he end up addicted to drugs?" is the same as asking ""If Osho was Enlightened why did the 1989 San Andreas earthquake occur?". What I did here was to break the association of enlightenment as being on the human level. At the trans-human level, the two questions are equal. However, the human mind-body will have a very difficult time surrendering to this because the human mind-body wants to keep the idea of enlightenment at the human level (the psychological self also sneaks in to contribute to this dynamic). One more. . . let's break the idea that enlightenment is something that occurs within the timeline. . . Here, the question "If Osho was Enlightned why did he end up addicted to drugs?" is the same as the question"If Osho was Enlightened, why did my cell phone battery just die?". What I did here was break the association of enlightenment with the person, human and the timeline.

The below comments are not direct at the OP. They are just general comments about the concept presented. . . This is a good point, yet be careful with opposites. When a realization that one extreme is false, the mind loves to adopt the opposite as true. This can be a big trap. For example, a mind may avoid awareness of deception and pretend like it doesn't exist. After deception is revealed, the mind may adopt the opposite view that everything is deception. This isn't quite true either. The claim "everything is X" nullifies the statement. Saying everything is deception is the same thing as saying nothing is deception. Because, saying everything is deception removes the contrast with nondeception. Consider the statement "Everything is Blue". That nullifies the statement and is the same as saying "Nothing is Blue". If everything is Blue, there is nothing to contrast the Blue color with. There is no reference point, nothing to compare Blueness with. Alan Watts spoke often about opposites and inter-dependency. For example, he would say yin is necessary for yang and vice-versa. Without yang, everything becomes yin and there is no longer anything to contrast yin with. If everything is yin, then nothing is yin. There is nothing to contrast yin with.