Forestluv

@SQAAD Science is within nonduality. Science is nonduality (as is everything). How can something prove itself? There is nothing to prove. It's like asking "Can science prove science exists?". It doesn't make sense.

Ahhh, I get what you are saying now. I would agree. There is an evolution. Psychedelics as a spiritual tool will become mainstream. Other forms will lessen and may go extinct. In a way, there is "progress" because new avenues will open with psychedelics, yet old classic extreme 100% meditation may go extinct and we might lose something of value there. I agree. Yet I think it is part of evolution. For example, technology has allowed us to save time for certain things, yet there was value in the old methods. I hadn't really thought about it like that. Do you think this is a good analogy? Imagine with AI we can create animals. We can create their DNA and development. They appear the same as "natural" animals. Yet know the natural animals are going extinct and are being replaced by AI animals. The question is: Are the AI animals actually the same as the natural animals? What if we find out that they are not exactly the same and we lose value because the natural animals went extinct.

Absolutely. I've been on both sides. I went 20+ years without taking a drug. I was anti-drug and gave talks about the dangers of drugs and how they are threatening. Spiritually, meditation and yoga was valid and psychedelics were invalid. Then I tried pyschedelics and become pro-psychedelics the magic bullet. 20 years of meditative insights in 4hrs. Then I realized many paths have value and integration of paths have value.

This is a bowful of YES! I've done long distance running for many years and it is amazing for consciousness work. I can't tell you how many zones I've entered and insights that have arisen through long distance running. And I totally agree with putting yourself in different states of consciousness. I've also found different states of consciousness can arise through sensory deprivation tanks, shamanic breathing, learning a foreign language and cultural immersion (I lived with a South American tribe for a while). These are amazing for consciousness. Others may get into playing a musical instrument, lucid dreaming etc. There are so many possibilities.

That is your relative experience and has value. My relative experience is very different and also has value. You seem to be giving your direct experience a lot of relevance and want to extrapolate your relative experience into universal truth.

Hmmm, I would disagree that psychedelics inherently makes us lazy. Personally, my productivity has increased. Psychedelics have helped me synthesize concepts from various disciplines. I've developed a course integrating neuroscience, consciousness, psychology, metaphysics, philosophy. As well, psychedelics have increased the productivity of my gf and her reiki career. Further, I've spoken with people in Silicon Valley that indicate micro-dosing has increased creativity production in the technology field. Based on this, I don't think it is fair to say psychedelics inherently makes us lazy. I think it would be more accurate to say "Depending on a variety of variables, psychedelics have the potential to increase motivation and productivity in some people as well as the potential to make some people lazy" I think what you are only looking at one piece of the puzzle. Yes, some people that take psychedelics will get caught in euphoric, escape and de-motivation traps. This happened to me and I've seen it in others. There can be an incredible amount of realizations very early. For me, I was downloading tons of insights and awareness rapidly. I stopped meditating. Why meditate? What happens is there becomes an inbalance. When I first used psychedelics, highly conscious people kept hammering down "Integration". They said you've got to integrate the insights through meditation, journaling and yoga. I was like "Whatever, that stuff is so slow - I'm good, thanks". Yet after a few months, there was a severe imbalance and everything started to become ungrounded. Meditation, yoga, journaling practice is essential for integration, grounding and maturity. These days, my balance is about 10% psychedelic work and 90% meditation, journaling and contemplation. Imagine a carpenter that discovers a saw for the first time. He is amazed with everything a saw can do. I whole new world opens up. This new saw seems to save him sooo much work. Yet what happens if our carpenter only uses a saw and discards his other tools? He will reach a point in which is growth stalls or even decreases. He needs to go back to his toolbox and integrate his saw with his hammer, pliers, screwdriver etc. At that point, he can evolve to a higher level of carpentry. My motivation to mediate and do yoga has increased since I introduced psychedelics into my spiritual life. Please give me examples of individuals who have embraced meditation, yoga and psychedelics. Please make a list of people who have 20+ years of dedicated meditation and yoga practice integrated with over 100 psychedelic trips. Ime, everyone I have met with that criteria have reached the deepest levels of consciousness. With this experience, I think it would be hard NOT to reach the deepest levels of consciousness.

Just a few more thoughts on vulnerability, insecurity and isolation dynamics. I've had this dynamic with my 10 year old niece. She has entered deeply into dream worlds and is losing her capacity to differentiate dream reality and "real reality". She has gone through tons of therapy. Everyone loves her and wants to help her. Yet there is a underlying message that there is something wrong with her. She has developed all sorts of neuroses.. Last winter I spent a half day with her and we got deeply immersed into her dreams and that reality. I loved her regardless. Just for being her. I had no agenda. At one point she started crying and said "You are the only one in the my worlds I can talk to like this". I know what it’s like to lose touch with dream and real reality. I know the anxiety and panic. Thinking I’m going insane. I know the fear of what others would think. That they think I’m weird. Of feeling something is wrong with me. Of people not accepting me, telling me I should think or be different. If I would only do this or think like that then I’ll be normal and feel better. Of being disconnected. Fear of viulnerability. My niece and I have those same dynamics. We get each other. We deeply connect and can enter each others worlds. We connected within 5 min. in ways that therapists and parents have not in years of work. They have compassion and mean well, yet they don’t “get it”. They can help in certain ways, yet they cannot connect like someone who knows from direct experience. After five minutes together we were BOTH like “omigosh you get it!!!You know!!” It’s incredibly powerful and beautiful. People tell her “you are not abnormal and I love you”. They then speak to her as if she is abnormal and she feels unloved. She shuts down and puts defenses up. When we get together we know we e are both weird. Weird bonds with weird. We love each other including our weirdness. We feel fully loved together and appreciate each other. We don’t try to change each other. We don’t think one of our views are better. We are in the same boat and help each other. It is a special form of connection and it only occurs when both people are in the same boat together. It doesn’t work when someone outside the boat is yelling that you aren’t doing it right and you should be doing it like I say. That can also be helpful, yet it’s a very different dynamic. I’m not saying Anraham did something “wrong” or another way is “better”. I’m just saying I think there is another dynamic here to consider. I think being open to various dynamics and integrating them can be helpful.

I think teachers like Mooji and Meher have a litvof insight, yet how can they possibly be able to judge the value of psychedelics without any experience? I place very little weight into what they say on this matter. I’m much more interested in sages with 20+ years if meditation experience AND 100+ trips of psychedelic experience. Imo they would carry much more weight on this matter.

@Scholar I had 25 years of meditation practice without taking a single drug. I then added in occasdional psychedelic use. Ime, they both have value. To me, it’s like asking if a carpenter would be better off if he just used a saw and refused to use a hammer. I would say the carpenter would reach a higher level if he uses both tools. As well, I would say someone with a high baseline level of consciousness and stabilty that uses psychedelics responsibily within a balanced and well-integrated practice us very different than so someone a low baseline level of consciousness and is suffering unstable. In that case, psychedelics can be counter-productive. Yet in the right context, psychedelics are an extremely powerful tool imo. Regarding different levels. After psychedelic experience, my relations and conversations with experienced monks and yogis completely changed.

This is the only video of Abraham I’ve seen. As well, it’s a rare case in which I felt thatva vulnerability/insecurity issue was primary. This is the first time I connected empathically to someone from a video, So it was a rare unique case. I think I would likely see most of her videos very differently. What I wrote wouldn’t apply in 99% of the cases.

Yes, I agree. I wrote earlier that when I first watched the video I was experiencing nearly all emotional, empathic and intuitive modes - I wasn't thinking much at all during the video. Someone asked me for my impressions on the emotional level and I said would do my best to translate my nonverbal experience to verbal /,which would unfortunately come across as analytical, yet that certainly wasn’t what happens in real time. And now that I’ve over-analyzed it, my original non-analyrical essence has been altered and mistly lost. I agree that intellectual analysis disconnects emotionally and intuitively and that women in general are better at using the modes of communication.

@DrewNows I agree that one needs to stay in the area the person is asking help in. If I wanted help for deeper issues he would ask for it or steer her there. She tried to help him and he wasn’t open to receiving. I just think if she got a bit more trust, connected on an emotional level and didn't take a superior position, he would have been more open to talk about his personal feelings. Instead he tried to stay in a safe zone in his head talking about stuff “out there”

Trans-ego is a lower level than trans-human. The egoic dynamic is within the human dynamic. A human that believes they communicated with trees as a phase during their path of enlightenment is still within the human construct. This is a form of speciesism. They may have transcended the human ego, yet they have not yet transcended humanness.

If you can’t gain the trust of someone they won’t open up. If you cannot create a safe space for someone they won’t open up. He didn’t trust her and he did not feel safe to reveal his deeper fears and insecurities. It can be very diffucult to establish that. You’ve got to know someone deeply. Imagine establishing a knowing and trust in 5 min. that others can’t acheive in 5 years. I’d say empathic tools is one of the most powerful to do this. It blows compassion away. I’m not talking about green toys. I’m talking Turquoise wizards using wands. For those skilled with it, we can directly experience someone. It is a form of reading. It is a rich source of information and can establish deep trust at both conscious and subconscious levels. Entering each other and knowing / accessing deep fears, issues and blocks. And I don’t think creating a loving, supportive, healing collective conscious is bad for a group. I lived in a Turquoise level community for a bit and it’s one of healthiest communities I’ve ever been in. Do you really think he has hidden behind that worn-out hat his whole life, can’t show his face to others, has intense fear of being seen and of cameras because other people are suffering? C’mon. That’s just a smokescreen to avoid his deeper more painful issues. Something broke that guy and made him hide behind that hat. If his primary issue was being upset about the suffering of others he wouldn’t be at a spiritual retreat terrified that someone might see the real him behind his hat. How often do you see an older man wear a grungy worn-out hat indoors at a spiritual retreat and pull it down over his face so noone can see him. Never. And it’s not because he feels bad about starving kids in Africa.

@DrewNows Bird murmurations and wolf packs have shown collective consciousness. Humans are so immersed in their own heads and thinking. There are higher levels. I’m seeing more and more people evolving higher.

Haha yes. Yet if new identifications continually arise, none of them take root and hold Entering collective is hard for me to do. I've only had that be the center of consciousness a few times. Usually it's partial or a brief in and out. I'd say a deeply relaxed state of mind is helpful. A little imagination. Sort of like falling asleep. You relax and just let it happen. Sometimes, the personality gets blindsided and it happens suddenly. Last winter I was walking around a University Campus while it was snowing. I was struck by how beautiful it was and became totally in the moment. My life dissolved and the whammo!! I was a snow globe and my whole field of perception was within me (as a snow globe). I've done it within my field of perception, yet no further. I can also happen with individual entities. I really wish I could lucid dream or astral project. I've been wanting to for years, yet can't do it. Not verbal. Not language. Not thought or feeling. Yet much closer to feeling than thought. Sort of empathic. There is a knowing. A form of connection. I also sensed a Native American who had been there with the tree and understood. The only words that arose were Mother Tree and there was an understanding of all beings that have gone to old wise trees to connect. She was a powerful teacher. There was also other communication that appeared through nature. It was perhaps the strongest Trans-human experience I have had. I'm really getting into this kinda stuff. Turquoise is fun.

Yes! Sometimes I sit in cafes / restaurants and dissolve. Every cafe / restaurant has a unique background noise and energy with the chatter and hustle/bustle. It's like an organism. One can dissolve into it and become it. It's super cool.

@Shin That all sounds totally sane to me. A couple weeks ago I was communicating with trees. Is that insane? Deep spirituality? A Turquoise magic wand? All I know is I can't talk to anyone in RL about it, except my gf - she is weird too. We are the only ones that can be weird together. And don't forget, you had one of your biggest breakthroughs after walls in your bedroom talked to you. . .

That totally captures the essence of it. As I dissolved, anxiety increased. I tried to hold onto ground and became afraid I might freak out. A thought appeared in my mind "noone will know you are insane unless you let them know you are insane". I don't know the source of the thought, yet it wasn't the Mocha Java talkin'. A few minutes later there was peace. . .

@Alex I've found that if I try to enter their world and pull them up it doesn't work and can be counter-productive. The only time I've seen any progress is when they invite me into that world and show interest in evolving. Even then, I can only go into their stretch zone. If I go for too much, they enter the panic zone and shut down. Yet this is rare since my family is totally immersed in the Maze. Another way is to just be the higher conscious level without "trying" to do anything. No intention, no agenda. No judgement. No expectations. Just be at the highest conscious. When someone is genuinely being at a higher conscious level, it is often attractive to those below and can rub off on them.

@Shin The "paranormal" can appear to be insane as it first appears. Yet it's only paranormal until it's no longer paranormal. Then it is normal. The first time I dissolved into the collective conscious was in a cafe. It felt insane. I was like "just chill and go along for the ride". Now I kinda like it.

@triadne You might not gain access as conscious memories. You might not be able to re-create a story like you want to. I think there are some psychotherapy modalities that try to unlock emotional blocks and deep-seeded "memories". Sometimes I just get a sense that something happened. Almost like a previous life or a dream I can quite remember. Yet it hasn't risen to the level of my consciousness and I've accepted they may be a different type of "memory" that isn't like my other memories. It's more like a sense or intuition. I don't know how to describe it. It is definitely closer to a feeling than a thought. And I get the sense that feelings arise from it. I don't know how to raise it to traditional memories and I'm a bit skeptical about how true it would be if some hypnotist or psychologist tried to pull it out. I've also considered past life regression therapy, yet it can be expensive (about $300+ for a day). So I've accepted that I can only get to know them though these nontraditional channels. One thing that open up a channel was in a sensory deprivation tank. Another time during shamanic breathing. There were "body memories" released during Shamanic breathing.

I also see his pained ego. I also see her effort and compassion. In my experience with vulnerability dynamics, empathetic connection is critical as a foundation for working through egoic dynamics. Yet the egoic dynamics that appear are a manifestation of a deeper level. The energy of compassion, ime, is actually counter-productive in vulnerability dynamics. Within a dynamic in which a person is highly open and vulnerable, the empathetic *knowing* is crucial. Without that, the egoic dynamics you mentioned cannot be addressed. Yet those egoic dynamics are a secondary issue, covering up a deeper primary issue. In his case, a subconscious insecurity and vulnerability level much deeper than the egoic dynamics that were apparent. For me, reaching these levels within my own mind-body was by far the most terrifying experience of my life. I sensed the same dynamic in this man, yet it is covered up. I am fairly confident I could have connected empathically with him immediately. I think his deep subconscious being would sense that I've been there. Looking at him face to face and making an effort to reach out and speak compassionately is a completely different channel and the ego often defensive posture. Which is exactly what happened. There was a moment his guard was down and she may have picked up on a empathic frequency when she said "You feel deeper than other people". Yet she wasn't able to go in. I felt a moderately strong empathic connection with him (not compassion) and I intuitively knew her approach would not work. I felt him and knew I would react exactly like that he did. As soon as she started talking, I knew that if she said "Buuut" with a certain tone and pivoted it was game over and it was. Any hint of judgement and rejection is leveraged 100X in a strong vulnerability dynamic. I was experiencing him and shut down the exact same moment he did in the conversation. . . Good intentions and effort do not necessarily lead to human connection. There are certain people I can connect empathetically with in a matter of seconds. In particular, other empaths, reiki masters, alcoholics and some forms of psychiatric illness. I have a sense he may also be an empath and we would have immediately connected on this level - depending on frequency. I would immediately know in person. If so, the conversation would have gone much differently. These situations are rare, yet when I encounter another empath on the same frequency it can be extremely intense. One of us can energetically burn out or freak out - depending on the strength of connection and our levels of grounding at the time. I've been on both sides of it. If he put his guard down with me like he briefly did with Abraham, I would have gone straight below this whole "I feel bad for other peoples' suffering" distraction and defense and gone into his deeper levels. Few words. It's mostly done through eyes and body. After a 30-60 minute "conversation" with him I would have likely had my entire energetic system drained and would have needed to recharge alone for several hours. The exchanges are exhausting. There are also people I have very unhealthy empathetic dynamics with - in particular female narcissists and BPDs. They are energy vampires to me and it's hard for me to set up energetic boundaries to protect myself. There is often a very strong energetic attraction between us - so I avoid them as much as I can. If I let down my boundary or they penetrate it, I'm in serious trouble. They can put a gaslighting spell on me. I've found that every two people have different energetic dynamics and imo it can take skill to open energetic channels with immature empaths because they are so scattered, ungrounded. And secondary issues siphon off there empathic potential. Yet with those that have experience it's instant. This is just my experience watching the video. I understand other people have different experiences. I am not saying mine is right and that it applies to everyone. Some beings in Turquoise get to become wizards with wands. . .

I agree that it can be expressed/released in healthy ways and unhealthy ways. To be honest with you, I don't think I am the best qualified in this situation. My internal anger dynamic was very different than yours. What I can say is that I love you regardless of whether or not you are angry

Now we're talkin' . . .