Forestluv

♥️ ?

@noselfnofun I think that is a very good question and I think it depends on several variables - such as the nature of the substance itself, your physiology, energetics etc. Similar to what you describe, I would say psychedelics temporarily reveal “something” and that something can be difficult to integrate into daily life. I often have an afterglow in which I am fully connected and insights are so clear and obvious. Yet, like a dream it can wear off - I find reflecting and writing down the “dream” to be helpful. Yet there are also aspects of a trip that stick. It’s like once I see something, I can’t unsee it. For example, the first time I experienced “ego death” and “rebirth”. That fundamentally changed my awareness and it has never left me. I may forget time to time, but it’s always right back there. For me, each psychedelic often shows an aspect of truth, awareness, enlightenment, nonduality - whatever one wants to call it. There is often a “lesson” and some type of theme. I would say 5-meo has similarities - yet it is special in a way. It is like a crystal. It is clear and contains everything and nothing. For me, aspects of it do wear off. Afterwards, it’s like I’m my higher Self - yet that sense wears off. Yet there are other aspects that are lasting. For example, 5-meo took me to “Mu” in which I was shown all distinctions dissolve to nothing and then reassemble into distinctions again. This had a profoundly deep impact on me that has lasted. I cannot unsee what I was shown, even if I tried. It was crystal clear and very little effort was needed to “integrate” it. I just wrote out the experience in the 5-meo thread and Leo gave some input that it was one side of a coin, that the other side was still missing, that it was important to get grounded in the side I was shown and how I could integrate/stabilize it. It didn’t take much work. Yet I may have gotten “lucky” and was in the “right place at the right time”. Yet I also think there are many variables at play. Overall, I wouldn’t say that 5-meo is any easier to integrate or has mor abiding effects than other psychedelics. It’s more the nature of the substance. For me, it’s the most lucid and clear. And I agree with what you wrote about psychedelics and how advanced a person is in their practice. I had practiced over 20 years before utilizing psychedelics. I had stable job and life. I was fairly mature and well grounded spirituality. If I had tried to use psychs in my younger years, the impact would have been very different. I think this is one key to understanding psychs - they can have very different impacts depending on the person, their level of development and where they are in life. When I was living in the mountains of Peru, I noticed people refer to Aya as “medicine”. Most people in the towns and villages didn’t see the Aya medicine as being good or bad. Rather, it was beneficial or nonbeneficial depending on a person’s condition.

Very nice, looks like you are digging into deeper levels. This may be helpful, maybe not. . . What arises in me when I read your statement: There was a moment in which awareness was aware of itself, then awareness was aware of the awareness of itself. Then awareness was aware of the awareness that was aware of itself. This kept expanding until it collapsed into nothing.

That is not what everyone here is saying. Your thought story is playing so loud you cannot hear what some are saying. Let the cowbell guy rest for a bit - get curious and listen. I know it may seem like the best prescription to cure your fever, but I don’t think more cowbell is helpful here.

@ardacigin I was curious about how your direct experience with 5-meo is integrated into your view. How have your personal experiences under the influence of 5-meo shaped your view? It’s as if you are describing the essence of scuba diving - I’m asking how your own personal experience scuba diving is integrated into that view. That is a key component. What you write about genetics and epigenetics is somewhat true in a general sense, yet there is an underlying inaccuracy regarding the actual mechanistic model of genetics and epigenetics at the molecular and cellular level. This map is really important when designing a larger, more holistic map. At this point, there are statements in your view that are not aligned with the actual mechanics of genetics and epigenetics. You say mindfulness changes the physical mind and DNA in fundamental ways yet don’t seem to have an understanding of the physical nature of DNA and how it is inter-connected to epigenetic mechanisms. For example, if someone inherits an allele with a particular missense mutation in the hemoglobin gene, the phenotype of anemia will arise. Epigenetics won’t change that. Epigenetic modifications will not change the altered primary structure of the protein product - hence it’s secondary and tertiary structure will be still be altered and it will be nonfunctional. Modifying DNA methylation patterns and nucleosome structure will have no influence on that. You can spend a lifetime in mindfulness and trying to alter DNA structure through epigenetic modifications and it would be a complete waste of time. In other contexts, epigenetic changes are play an integral role. For example, after traumatic events and abuse DNA methylation patterns are altered throughout the genome - which can alter gene expression in the brain. These alterations are helpful to cope with the acute event in the moment, yet the epigenetic alterations can persist for years - even decades. These changes can cause phenotypes at the organismal level - such as susceptibility to anxiety. For example, a gene involved in the repression of cortisol is epigenetically altered such that basal cortisol levels rise in the person - this can persist for years. Cortisol is a key stress hormone and increased levels can contribute to the physiological sensations of anxiety. Here, your view is applicable. If we can figure out a way to reprogram the epigenetic DNA methylation pattern back to normal for key genes, the physiology will be improved. Biochemists are currently working on how to do this, yet it is extremely challenging for many reasons. What you propose is an alternate method to reset to epigenetic methylation pattern - perhaps through mindfulness training. This is an area I think has a lot of promise and I am currently experimenting on myself. Multigenetic traits become far more complex and is an interplay between inherited allelic sequences, environmental input and epigenetic modifications. Yet your view is not recognizing the underlying mechanism of how epigenetics is working. In my view, this leads to a distorted view you are proposing that is only somewhat accurate. It is over-generalized inaccurately. In particular, because it is not making the distinction between variations in allelic sequences and the mechanics of epigenetic modifications. Imo, that relationship is key to clearing up the underlying inaccuracies in your view. I’m not saying it is fundamentally bad or wrong. I think you are onto something powerful, yet just need some tweaking. Leo is making a point that is true in a certain context and you are making a point that is true in a certain context. Yet you are not seeing this because you are not making an important distinction between genetics and epigenetics, which I will explain in laymans terms below. I would be happy to go into more detail if you would like to build a more accurate thesis. Epigenetic modifications are a key feature of DNA structure and gene expression, yet it does not alter the sequence of DNA. That is the ”epi” part of epigenetics. That is really important when creating bigger picture models. For example, your “starting point” concept is only partially true. It’s true in the sense that one could consider their allelic make-up as a “starting point” and epigenetics can influence that “starting point”. However, epigenetics is not altering the underlying code, it is influencing how that code is expressed. This is a really important distinction to understand the role epigenetics plays and how we can use this model to rewire the brain. I think epigenetics can be a powerful model in rewiring the brain and I hope it can be combined with practices such as Reiki. Yet one needs to be knowledgeable and skilled with the underlying mechanics to use it wisely and effectively. I’m impressed with your big picture thinking and the way your are integrating multiple fields together. When creating holistic views, I think it’s important to recognize gaps and holes. In this case, I think you point to some insights, yet there are gaps in direct experience and the underlying mechanics of genetics. Imo, adding this in would create a deeper, more accurate holistic view.

@DrewNows I can put up boundaries in certain contexts. For example, I tend to over-share and it often comes back to bite me. I can set up boundaries that I will only share at the same personal level as the other person. I’ve read boundaries is the major issue for most empaths Yet stuff I’ve been experiencing lately is more like magic, paranormal, telepathy sort of stuff. I’d imagine most empaths are introverted.

@DrewNows Yea it’s hard to explain. It’s as if emotions have sound and you are the only one that can hear it. Imagine sitting in a restaurant and sound is emanating out of your body and noone seems to notice it and you have to pretend everything is normal. It can be hard to do. There are other forms I’ve experienced too.

@DrewNows I know spoken out loud. That’s what I’m saying. This is as obvious as if it was spoken out loud, if I stood up and danced on the table, grabbed her hand, or spilled a bottle of perfume. The more intense it got, the louder it got. It was like my emotions and those in the room were on a loud speaker and everyone is acting like nothing is going on. Yet I was dialed in on her and everyone else was tuned out. It can be bizarre. Yet people think I’m crazy, so I don’t talk much about it. There is a collective conscious aspect to it. This might not be what most people call empath, I don’t know. When I was younger it manifested differently.

It was “vocalized”. That’s the thing. It’s just as obvious as if I said it vocally. I’ve only been able to communicate on this channel with one other person in my life. I was totally into it, yet it was too much for her. We didn’t even need to speak with each other. Anxiety doesn’t always arise. Often, I’m cool with it. I’ve been able to “read” people at times. My gf is a reiki master that it supposed to be in tune with all sorts of energies. It was bizarre she wasn’t picking up on this.

For me, it’s like a form of hyper-connection. It’s like all the feelings / thoughts / beingness is floating around for everyone to see. And I can see them too. Intimately. Like I read their diary. It can have different vibes - it can be unbelievably intimate and loving. Yet it can also turn scary. And thoughts can enter and make the anxiety worse - and all those thoughts are floating around for everyone to see. There is no place to hide. I was with my gf in a restaurant last night and started to slip into that space. I could feel her, yet she wasn’t on the same channel. Yet it’s so obvious, how can she not be aware of it? It feels naked - for all to see. I had some thoughts like “what if I wanted to slap her? Would she know?” Then a flood of anxiety. It was sooo obvious - as if I said it. It was out in the open, swirling around. Yet she kept talking as if nothing was going on. I was high anxiety and just tried to act normal in case she didn’t know. It felt like I pulled my pants down and started urinating on the table and noone in the restaurant noticed. It goes both ways, their feelings ate totally transparent as well and they have no idea. I’ve only met one person in my life that was in tune with this. Many others have caught a brief glimpse, yet can’t stay on for more than a second or two.

That’s a reason why I love clear crystal so much.

I hadn't thought of it like that before. For me, I think that sensitivity would make a situation more intense. If there is an intense social situation, empathic channels make it more intense and I would turn off and disconnect. I suppose empathic can be described in different ways. I saw the first guy in the video and was like "that aint it" - not what I experience anyway. In my experience, it is definitely tied to social dynamics and social anxiety - yet a certain type of anxiety. It's not the type of anxiety of "I'm not good enough", "what do people think of me?", "what if I say the wrong thing?". etc. That's totally different. It's anxiety in a very different direction. Like feeling people really personally. Like experiencing them and a type of knowing them. The boundary between "them and me" breaks down, so it can seem like they are also feeling me. Like they are jumping inside of me. It can be extremely intimate with complete strangers. It really feels like they are feeling it too and that can be part of the anxiety. Sometimes, I am unable to turn it down or manage it and that can also cause a lot of anxiety. For example, I was walking in a crowded outdoor fair one time with a friend. Artwork, food, performances - that kind of stuff. Then, I started connecting with people through eyes. I just felt them. In an instant. I would look at someone and know their angst. The next person, worry. The next anger. The next insecurity. All sorts of mixtures. Hundreds of people around me, everywhere I looked. Hundreds of packets of energy/feeling getting thrown into me. As if hundreds of people were trying to grab me. That caused a lot of anxiety. Also, when there was eye contact, it was like they knew. They knew what I was doing - because the empathic channel goes both ways - at least in "my" experience. This elevated the intensity of the anxiety and I told my friend I had to leave. Now. We went to a cafe and we got a corner table. I spent 10min. in the restroom until I could come back out and see any other human. One thing I learned that helps with the anxiety is that the other person doesn't know, unless they are sensitive/empath and on the same "frequencey". I've learned to fake it and just act normal and the other person doesn't know what I'm experiencing - even though it really feels totally obvious and it seems like they have to be experiencing what I am. Like the other person can "read my mind" (or read my feelings). This can create an enormous amount of stress. One way I've reduced the anxiety is by thinking "she doesn't know. Just act normal". And the other person just keeps on chatting like nothing is happening. Perhaps they subconsciously pick up a vibe they reflect on later, yet in the moment they seem clueless. I've only met one person who was completely on the same channel as me. She had been developing empathic abilities for many years. It was eerie. There is also a weird dynamic with narcissists. For me, female narcissists. It's really unhealthy. I've read it's a common dynamic that immature empaths find themselves in. Also, I see a lot of people use the term "sensitive". It's not sensitive in the traditional sense of "he is really sensitive and his feelings get hurt easily" or "she is really sensitive to criticism". It's a very different sensitivity. It's more like being very sensitive to a certain frequency of sound.

Haha. Yes.

The best I can contextualize is: Nothing. Then a "something" appears. There is awareness of that something. Yet prior to that first something, there was nothing to be aware of. Awareness and something arose together. It feels weird to me to say there was "awareness" prior to the first something. It really seemed like awareness appeared with the first something. To me, attention would come after the first something. How can there be attention to a first something? There is nothing else to pay attention to. With the appearance of the second "something", there is awareness of both. I suppose now one could say there is attention - toward the first something or the second something that is present. It still feels weird to say that tho, because there was no "observer" present - that came in much later. As well, there was no "chooser" deciding to pay attention to the first something or the second something.

If those thoughts are troubling, why not let the thoughts go and just be thoughtless?

Perhaps you are missing the bliss, the magic. Perhaps you have an idea what the bliss and magic "should" be like and are therefore missing what is right under your nose. You would need to let go of that thought story about what bliss and magic "should" be like. When one transcends the self, a whole new world arises. Beyond anything one can imagine.

I've experienced 5-meo several times and I'm a bit perplexed by this statement. Could you please relate your direct experience with 5-meo to this contextualization? Your statements about genetics seem vague to me. It doesn't seem like you are making the distinction between inherited gene sequences / alleleic variations and epigenetic modifications. Your statement could be partially true in a certain context - yet it seems like you are conflating two very distinct genetic concepts - which leads to misinterpretation. If possible, could you clarify your view regarding the distinctions I mentioned above? Without making the distinction, it's like one person saying "the light doesn't work because the lightbulb is burned out" and the other person saying "well, just flip the light switch on". With the distinction between lightbulb and light switch, the statement makes no sense. What good is flipping on the lightswitch if the bulb is burned out?

If we assume the existence of a "you", then of course. That is part of playing the human character. A blank movie is boring to me. There is so much left to explore in the relative world and the human world. It's magic. Sometimes I like to role play. Sometimes it's fun to get immersed into a character and be that character, as if the character is actually real. Other times it's fun to just observe the character. Other times, having no character. Variety is the spice of life.

For sure. I'm currently exploring this area. I would add that there is also a lot more other stuff possible when you dissolve self and other. A whole new world opens up. If a mind-body is not immersed in self and other, what's it going to do? It's going to be aware of new somethings now. And those somethings that arise are magic. It's another world to explore. Regarding rewiring the brain, I think we are still at the very early stages. Very few people are aware that this is even possible, let alone doing the practice and development work.

@abrakamowse It sounds like someone becoming more mature and realizing naunces within meditation. Meditation can be used for relaxation and stress reduction. It is wonderful for that. It can help someone "be in the moment" and help their attention. This may help that at work and in their relationships. This can promote a sense of successful in their life and relief from stress. Super duper. . . Meditation can also be used as a transcendental tool to self-actualize and transcend the personality. Cool jellies! The tension and misunderstanding I see is when someone thinks they want to transcend the person, yet the true desire is for personal development and rewards. There is nothing "wrong" with other of these. It is the confusion that causes trouble. For example, someone might be attracted to the idea of "peace and bliss" they hear about with awakening. Yet they confuse the transcendental "peace and bliss" with their old concepts of personal "peace and bliss" (which is actually just a temporarily relief from stress and suffering). Such a person is likely to become very confused and frustrated.

Having direct experience and knowledge in multiple areas with mastery is extremely rare. Most high level spiritual people seem to have mastery in one area. Integrating multiple forms is an extremely high level and I've met very few people that I'd consider at this level. So, I don't expect this or look for this level. Rather, I'm more interested in how open and curious a person is. All of these modalities (neuroscience, psychedelics, reiki, kundalini, buddhism, contemplation etc) are all within an ocean of spirituality. For me, recognizing this and being open to the value of this is more important. A shaman who specializes in Ayahuasca, yet is open and curious about yoga and neuroscience is very different than a shaman who only is open to Ayahuasca. Yet, that is not to say he has no value - he may be highly skilled in using his tool and may have many lessons for me. The major turn-off for me is when one says their tool is the best, the only valid method, other methods are bad or delusional and that I need to use his method. I may be able to exchange a bit of experience with that person, yet it will be limited and I will not fully connect or resonate with such a person. As well, I resonate with people that are open and curious to various methods, yet do not see any one as all "good" or "bad". The person who says Ayahuasca is the best thing for everyone and if everyone just did an Ayahuasca retreat we would all be better and enlightened - is immature. There is a certain context in which Ayahuasca can be beneficial and there are risks for some people. We need to consider an individual situation. Perhaps it seems like an Aya retreat might be beneficial to a particular person, yet how will we combine that with other methods? For some, an Aya retreat coupled to Yoga and meditation might be a great combo. For someone else, an Aya retreat coupled to psychotherapy may be benefical. For another, an Aya retreat coupled to reiki and medication might be a great combination. I like people that have a diversity of direct experience, yet it is the maturity, openness and curiosity that is more important to me. Ime, these people are very rare - and they differ in terms of degree of maturity, openness and curiosity. I've been actively seeking such people and I'd say I've only met about 8 in real life - they are very special people to me. There is only one two people in my real life environment like this. One lives 60 miles away and we see each other every weekend, the other lives 100 miles away and we have only met once. Yet they are much more common on the internet, they are scattered all over online.

@Patrick Lynam Consider scuba diving. Is it positive or negative? Well it depends. If someone buys used equipment at a garage sale, with no instructions, and goes out to sea to try it on their own. . . it's probably not going to turn out so well. Similarly, if someone has intense claustrophobia and a history of panic attacks about not being able to breath - it's probably not going to go so well. Before I tried psychedelics, I did a lot of research. I talked with a lot of people that had experience with meditation, yoga, contemplation, personal development, psychology, science and psychedelics. People that seemed mature and had a variety of experience/knowledge and saw how it is all inter-related. To me, people that are all-in for psychedelics at the expense of other spirituality practices is a red flag. As well, people that are strongly against psychedelics (with little or no experience) is also a red flag. It is the people that have various experience in multiple areas and see things holistically that I resonate with.

It’s not all or nothing. In every area, there will be a variety if people: charlatans, individuals with misunderstood skills, those with immature undeveloped skills and those with mature developed skills. This is true with science, reiki, yoga, psychedelics etc. As one’s own skills develop in an area, it becomes much easier to spot the developmental stage in others. For example, a quantum mechanics professor can easily spot if someone is full of shit in this area, has partial knowledge of quantum mechanics, or is fluent in quantum mechanics.

She is like a carpenter who thinks power tools are bad and refuses to work with them. Or a neuroscientist who refuses to teach anyone who practices reiki. She may be skilled in certain areas, yet she will not have an open mind and holistic understanding of how all modalities are inter-connected. If she was strongly anti- anything, that would be a weird vibe for me. Like if she said she was anti-science that would be odd.

@MsNobody That is some beautiful healing. Thank you for sharing it with us I hope your Vipassana retreat goes well. Please write us a report!