Forestluv

@abrakamowse It sounds like someone becoming more mature and realizing naunces within meditation. Meditation can be used for relaxation and stress reduction. It is wonderful for that. It can help someone "be in the moment" and help their attention. This may help that at work and in their relationships. This can promote a sense of successful in their life and relief from stress. Super duper. . . Meditation can also be used as a transcendental tool to self-actualize and transcend the personality. Cool jellies! The tension and misunderstanding I see is when someone thinks they want to transcend the person, yet the true desire is for personal development and rewards. There is nothing "wrong" with other of these. It is the confusion that causes trouble. For example, someone might be attracted to the idea of "peace and bliss" they hear about with awakening. Yet they confuse the transcendental "peace and bliss" with their old concepts of personal "peace and bliss" (which is actually just a temporarily relief from stress and suffering). Such a person is likely to become very confused and frustrated.

Having direct experience and knowledge in multiple areas with mastery is extremely rare. Most high level spiritual people seem to have mastery in one area. Integrating multiple forms is an extremely high level and I've met very few people that I'd consider at this level. So, I don't expect this or look for this level. Rather, I'm more interested in how open and curious a person is. All of these modalities (neuroscience, psychedelics, reiki, kundalini, buddhism, contemplation etc) are all within an ocean of spirituality. For me, recognizing this and being open to the value of this is more important. A shaman who specializes in Ayahuasca, yet is open and curious about yoga and neuroscience is very different than a shaman who only is open to Ayahuasca. Yet, that is not to say he has no value - he may be highly skilled in using his tool and may have many lessons for me. The major turn-off for me is when one says their tool is the best, the only valid method, other methods are bad or delusional and that I need to use his method. I may be able to exchange a bit of experience with that person, yet it will be limited and I will not fully connect or resonate with such a person. As well, I resonate with people that are open and curious to various methods, yet do not see any one as all "good" or "bad". The person who says Ayahuasca is the best thing for everyone and if everyone just did an Ayahuasca retreat we would all be better and enlightened - is immature. There is a certain context in which Ayahuasca can be beneficial and there are risks for some people. We need to consider an individual situation. Perhaps it seems like an Aya retreat might be beneficial to a particular person, yet how will we combine that with other methods? For some, an Aya retreat coupled to Yoga and meditation might be a great combo. For someone else, an Aya retreat coupled to psychotherapy may be benefical. For another, an Aya retreat coupled to reiki and medication might be a great combination. I like people that have a diversity of direct experience, yet it is the maturity, openness and curiosity that is more important to me. Ime, these people are very rare - and they differ in terms of degree of maturity, openness and curiosity. I've been actively seeking such people and I'd say I've only met about 8 in real life - they are very special people to me. There is only one two people in my real life environment like this. One lives 60 miles away and we see each other every weekend, the other lives 100 miles away and we have only met once. Yet they are much more common on the internet, they are scattered all over online.

@Patrick Lynam Consider scuba diving. Is it positive or negative? Well it depends. If someone buys used equipment at a garage sale, with no instructions, and goes out to sea to try it on their own. . . it's probably not going to turn out so well. Similarly, if someone has intense claustrophobia and a history of panic attacks about not being able to breath - it's probably not going to go so well. Before I tried psychedelics, I did a lot of research. I talked with a lot of people that had experience with meditation, yoga, contemplation, personal development, psychology, science and psychedelics. People that seemed mature and had a variety of experience/knowledge and saw how it is all inter-related. To me, people that are all-in for psychedelics at the expense of other spirituality practices is a red flag. As well, people that are strongly against psychedelics (with little or no experience) is also a red flag. It is the people that have various experience in multiple areas and see things holistically that I resonate with.

It’s not all or nothing. In every area, there will be a variety if people: charlatans, individuals with misunderstood skills, those with immature undeveloped skills and those with mature developed skills. This is true with science, reiki, yoga, psychedelics etc. As one’s own skills develop in an area, it becomes much easier to spot the developmental stage in others. For example, a quantum mechanics professor can easily spot if someone is full of shit in this area, has partial knowledge of quantum mechanics, or is fluent in quantum mechanics.

She is like a carpenter who thinks power tools are bad and refuses to work with them. Or a neuroscientist who refuses to teach anyone who practices reiki. She may be skilled in certain areas, yet she will not have an open mind and holistic understanding of how all modalities are inter-connected. If she was strongly anti- anything, that would be a weird vibe for me. Like if she said she was anti-science that would be odd.

@MsNobody That is some beautiful healing. Thank you for sharing it with us I hope your Vipassana retreat goes well. Please write us a report!

It does not have that effect on me, yet I could see it doing so for others.

@Pouya One method that works for me is “reality checks”. Several times a day I do a reality check and ask “Am I dreaming”. To see if I am, I hold out the palm of my hand and see if I can put my forefinger through my palm. The moment my forefinger touches my palm, I know I’m not dreaming and consciousness returns to what is actual now. I’d say this one exercise increased my consciousness from from 5% of the day to 50% of the day. After I while, I started asking this question in my dreams. My dream character would ask “Am I dreaming?”. The moment my finger goes right through my palm, I know I’m dreaming and consciousness returns to what is actual (in the dream). Some people call this lucid dreaming. What I found was it doesn’t matter if my finger hoes through my palm or not. In both cases, consciousness returns to what is actual in the moment.

@David Hammond ♥️ ?

Ime, I would say both methods have value. Rather than the term “bypass”, I would say “a different route”. I would say neither route is free and both require effort and work - it’s just that each method had different type of effort/work. When the two methods are integrated, an emergent property arises that is greater than the sum of their parts. That’s just my experience, I can see how others would have different views based in their own experience.

I realize the intent here may be humor. Yet please don’t start trivial thread topics like burning one’s mouth on hot coffee and linking it to dramatic images of a human committing suicide.

I place a lot more truth value on the mind-body experience than the thought story that arises from the direct experience. At best, those stories can be a helpful expression of the direct experience - similar to how tears or laughter is an expression of the direct experience. However, I’ve found that thoughts tend to want to”run the show” and decide what is true and false and assign meaning. This often creates a twisted sense of being. For me, direct experience comes prior to the thought story about it. Yet my thinking mind does not like accepting this, because it’s role becomes diminished. Only about 1% of thoughts is sufficient, yet my thinking mind wants 90% of the action. My optimal balance seems to be 99% direct experience, 1% thought. Yet it is very challenging for me to maintain that balance.

@Mu_ Thank you for making yourself available for this. ♥️ ?

Yea, just 1% of cowbell is sufficient. It’s a tough pill to swallow for the cowbell guy.

I was having a discussion on this with @Nahm yesterday. I originally said thoughts are like the guitar player in the band. Nahm said thoughts are more like a guy in the audience with a cow bell. I laughed and realized it’s so true. My thinking mind wants to create a story in which thoughts are really important, like the guitarist. It doesn’t want to admit it’s just a cowbell guy making noise.

I can see how that is true in many contexts and situations. Yet, ime it is not universally true. For example, psychedelics related to spiritaul states was anything but lazy for me. In some ways, it took more effort and courage than training for the marathon races I’ve done. Imagine a person is to cut down a forest and they can use a handsaw or a chainsaw. Is it lazy to choose the chainsaw? I would say no. It takes work and effort to learn how to use the chainsaw and the risk of injury is much higher with the chainsaw. Yet at times, the chainsaw is a much more efficient tool. Personally, I find it best to use both. Both tools have value when cutting down the forest.

None of them do in low doses. The one that has the highest chance of that is adderall, and I limit it to a very small amount. Any more than 10mg starts to feel toxic and buzzy to me. And I don’t take it more than 2-3 times a week Well. . . When I was younger, I also had drug addictions and dependency issues. I think one of the keys is to to which drugs will will over-power the mind body. Some drug, like meth or heroine, will over-power nearly all mind-bodies and cause damage. Other drugs seem to be helpful for some and damaging to others. For example, alcohol is really bad for my mind body. It’s just bad chemistry. There is a really high risk that I would drink excessively and fall into dependency/addiction. It’s just a battle I don’t want to face so I don’t drink. Lots of other people drink socially and have no problem with it. I’m just not one of those people. On the other hand, most people will develop some type javascript:void('Remove Format')of dependency/ addiction to a drug like adderall. When I first tried it, I had to be honest with myself. How is my mind-body relating to this drug? Can it take it in low doses on occasion? Sometimes the answer is “yes”, sometimes it’s “no”. For me, it’s really important to listen to my body and trust that my body is telling my the truth and guiding me. For me, caffeine is much more addivitive/ dependency on my mind-body than lsd microdosing, adderall min-dosing or modafinil. That’s just how it is and what my body is telling me. I’ve also come to realize that “drugs” are not just chemical substances. Many activities also alter my mind-body chemistry similiar to drugs. For example, running is like a drug for me and I have to be careful how much I do it. I am prone to running too much and it can become an escape, just like a drug. Too much starts to have a negative impact on my mind-body and life. Currently, my running “dosage” is 5 miles twice a week. Other people may have a different optimal “running dosage”. For others, it may not work at all. Similarly, yoga and hiking are also “drugs” in a sense for me. They can be highly beneficial for me in a certain context and range. I’ve also found it helpful to be mindful of the balance chemical chemical drugs and activity drugs. For example, modafinil seems to be beneficial in limited dosage and frequncey, yet I’ve noticed I’ve moved more toward introspective contemplation with this chemical and less yoga activity. This isn’t necessarily bad, yet it is a mild concern for me because the balance is shifted. Perhaps I need to be more intestinal now with yoga, or perhaps I can be intentional and combine modafinil with yoga practice. I now realize this was a long response that didn’t directly answer your question. I would say I don’t have any specific recommendations because people vary so much. I have recommendations for what not to try (e.g. cocaine) yet I would say a person needs to explore chemicals with potential benefits and see how their mind-body responds. Yet, not at the expense of beneficial “activity drugs” like exercise, meditation, yoga etc.

@Jkris I was just discussing this with a friend yesterday. Here are a few things that resonated with me. 1. Thoughts and thought stories aren’t necessary for beingness. There can be an underlying belief tat thinking is necessary to operate in life. Realizing this isn’t true, can help relax the mind. At most, 1% of our thoughts are needed to function. This is a very radical idea for me. I’ve gone stretches of 10min or so, and have done fine. Actually, life seems to flow a lot better without thinking. The mind-body is like a jazz band and some guy in the audience keeps clanging an annoying cow bell. He insists he is the band and the band can’t survive without him. It’s distracting and unnecessary for the music.For example, these words are just being expressed right now, I don’t even know how this sentence will end. It feels like bizarre magic. 2. I’vefound that trying to repress thoughts can be counter-productive. I’ve found it more at times helpful to get curious about the nature of thought. What is the underlying nature of thought? Sometimes when I meditate, I will sit and wait for thoughts. Like a cat waiting for a mouse to come out of the cupboard? Here, I actually want thoughts to arise. That is the whole experiment.To discover where these thoughts are coming from. What comes prior to the thought? Ironically, sometimes when I do this, no thoughts arise. I just sit there like a cat waiting. Before long, I started experiences stretches of a few minutes without a thought.

@Swagala Nice insightful direct experience. Thank you for sharing it with us ♥️ ?

Notice that your body has sensations of discomfort. It is trying to communicate something. Now let’s look at the thought story that arises from these body sensations. Is that what your body is trying to communicate to you? Or is that a story the mind created? Also notice how this terrible story will intensify the depression and lonliness. This in turn will intensify the the thought story to make it even worse, which makes the body feel even worse. There is a negative feedback loop that can be difficult to break. Perhaps consider allowing the body to simply express the sensations without the added story. Observe the sensations and allow the body to release and express itself. Allowing the thought story to dissolve can allow deeper insights to arise. The thought story is like an annoying cowbell, it’s a distraction and getting in the way of progress.

Seeking truth for truth’s sake is an orientation. It is a way of life. It is genuine seeking of truth and requires great courage. It can be simply called “seeking truth”. Seekng truth for personal rewards can cause unhealthy psychological dynamics because the self is oriented toward seeking rewards, not truth. It can simply be called “seeking self-centered rewards”. Adding in the “truth” part can provide the self with some cover and allow it to avoid actual truth,. This often leads to a distorted view of truth . For example, someone in a relationship may claim they value the truth and want truth, yet if the primary fuel is self seeking rewards, truth, honesty and trust will become twisted within the relationship. Even worse, the false belief that one is seeking truth will actually prevent them from being open and willing to genuinely introspect and see the actual truth. There is nothing wrong with seeking personal rewards, yet I think it’s a healthier psychological dynamic to be honest about it and drop the “truth” part. It’s like a scientist seeking experimental results for personal rewards such as promotions and grant money. He would be highly biased and not oriented toward seeking the actual truth.

@Billy Shears The self likes to be the arbiter of what is true or false. I think a better question would be “How would I know what is?” How does one know sadness is sadness and not anger?

@Paul92 Emptiness is only depressing when it is misunderstood.

This reminds me of the movie “Into the Wild”. It’s a story of a young man who did exactly that.

I would start with a different framing : “I am Everything””. Go out in nature and be one with nature. Experience that you are within Everything. The term god can be loaded with baggage. I found it helpful to put it aside for a while and work with Everything / Nothing