Forestluv

I started dedicated meditation when I was 22y.o. I started having nondual "glimpses", after a few months. Yet I didn't "catch" them. They were fleeting glimpses and they would even pass by, get dismissed or contextualized as simply an experience. For example, I there may be a moment with a lover in which our selves "melted" and we were one. There was simply the presence of love. No "me" or "her" to take ownershp of it. It was a brief moment, then my mind would come back and start thinking. . "that was really cool", "that felt good", "I think I love her, what if she leaves me?". All sorts of thoughts and stories arose. I practiced meditation for 24 years without a single drug. No psychedelics, no cannabis, not even a drop of alcohol. Nothing put meditation, retreats, dharma talks etc. I had many nondual glimpses, which I can recognize now - yet at the time they were pleasant experiences or "insights", yet I was too immersed in the storyline and personality and I didn't really know what they were, or that they were keys to a "transcendental" realm. Part of the problem was all the contextualization. In my own mind, yet also by teachers. Quite often, teachers would take these experiences and contextualize them. They would tell me what they mean and how it should be. I've learned that observing one's own direct experience is sooo important,. After about 22yrs of meditation, I started sensing I was missing something profound and important. I started getting an internal voice of "you aren't listening". I did the best I could to surrender more and listen more - yet that sense did not go away. I saw some people talking about psychedelics on a forum on reddit. With a few of them, I felt they were on to something. And it very much resonated with that inner part of me saying "you aren't listening". Yet for my entire adult life I had been strongly against all drugs and alcohol in spirituality. I used to call it spiritual cartoon books. I even spoke at high schools about the dangers of drugs and alcohol - so I pushed that inner voice down - for another 2 years. Finally, I decided I would try it once for strictly spiritual purposes. I spent a couple months researching for the best one. At this time in my life, I had no big "issues". I had a steady job and was financially secure. I didn't have depression or major life problems. I wasn't looking to escape. I wasn't looking to end suffering. I wasn't looking to become enlightened. I didn't even know about this forum. It really came down to that inner voice yearning for a "something". I was really curious what this was. What was this inner voice saying "you aren't listening". I'm not listening to what? I knew it was deeper than "me" and I would have to surrender all to allow it to appear. So there was a lot of anxiety before my that first trip. I took a moderate dose and still felt like me and redosed to go deeper. Then it happened. . . It's hard to describe the reality of the experience - which many others have on the forum with "trip reports". In terms of my everyday life - it had a profound impact. The biggest single event in my life up to that point, by far. Second place isn't even close. A few of the biggest life changing things for me where: 1) Full-on ego death - the complete dissolution of the self. I had spent many many years discussing the psychological self and the nature of the ego - in particular with buddhist groups. I got into places in which my mind thought it had some understanding, yet there was always a deeper sense that I wasn't quite "getting it". This is a major source of the seeking behavior. My mind-body experienced a lot of seeking - maybe "it's at a retreat", "maybe if I meditate more", "maybe if I do yoga" it will come. . . The entire story got dissolved to nothing - four hours later the story began to arise again. That I am a man. I live in a house. I grew up in New Jersey. I have a family. My parents are republicans, yet I am more liberal. There was awareness of this story being created - as if I was watching a movie. It was unbelievably profound. 2) A sense of "knowing". After the story began to get re-created and the "me" returned. There was a knowing of beingness without the ego. There was a sudden realization of . . . "So, that's what the Buddhists were talking about all those years!!!". So many times, there seemed to be knowing - yet it was always relevant. The sand would shift and I didn't know anymore and I would seek more knowing. This was different. An absolute profound knowing that "that's it". There was zero need for verification or validation. I didn't need to get online to ask if it was some kind of "it". I didn't need to read up on it in a book. I didn't need to visit my Buddhist group or teacher to ask them about it. in a sense, this was a higher teacher and it was unmistake-able. Something fundamentally changed that day and people around me could tell a difference. 3) A different energetic shift of seeking. For my entire adult life, I was a seeker. A seeking of truth through science and spirituality. The seeking energy was oriented "out there". Seeking truth through teachers, books - maybe it's in an ashram. Always looking out there to find it. Now, a very profound energetic shift took place - I lost interest in that form of seeking and a new energy of seeking truth through direct experience arose. I realized how I had been contracted in science and buddhism. Now I saw that they were within a greater truth. So, when a scientist or buddhist would say this is the truth - it now had a very different meaning to me. The seeking energy now shifted toward my own direct experience and getting in touch with that higher teacher "within" and exploring direct experience.

Oh no, it's not you. Each story has an infinite number of side routes. One cannot possibly connect them all. What you say is a beautiful example of being present. Image someone listening to another person. Yet the listener is immersed in thought and feelings that are influenced by past knowledge, experience, memories, their world view etc. They aren't fully present in what is happening now. They are not seeing the beauty of what is taking place right now - because it is going through a filter. That's what arose for me when I read your message.

Yes, that is also an important feature of this story. Thank you for bringing it up. There are various modes of communication - words are just one mode. Most human minds focus on words on the conscious level - let most actual meaning is transmitted subconsciously. Part of consciousness work is digging into these nonverbal subconscious zones.

Yes, that relates to a key point I was trying to make in the story.

I'm just playing, it's all good. Imagine a person came to you asking for directions to the Henry Ford Museum. You begin telling him and notice confusion arise. You then realize he doesn't speak English. With these realizations, it seems to me that a more efficient mode of communication would be to use nonverbal communication - for example, pointing on his map to the next street he needs to get on, and then relating the map to the territory by pointing toward the actual street. If I tried to link the map to the territory with English words, it wouldn't be very efficient - it's likely that more confusion would arise. I just used the terms "teacher" and "student" as a habit - since it is so common in communication. "Being 1" and "Being 2" would be more accurate.

I spent a week in Antigua. I love your center square. It was sooo beautiful. The trees, the water fountains, the people, the colorful clothing. A little piece of heaven.

That whole thought story led to a one-liner of truth?! Perhaps my mind likes to take the scenic route at times

@DrewNows Yes. I’ve found understanding and deconstructing my “self” and the underlying psychological dynamics in my own mind to be essential for understanding other selfs. Also, thank you for the point about emotional connections. Sometimes establishing emotional connections can be counter-productive and even unhealthy. For example, when a female student enters my office, there are certain emotional connections that are off-limits and we aint gonna go there. Personal boundaries can be unhealthy or healthy, depending on context.

@DrewNows Yes. Separation and lack of oneness can be humorous. I’ve been in disconnected miscommunication dynamics that went into truly bizarre zones. Both of us trying to communicate the simplest of ideas and the other person totally not getting it. Each person can be baffled. It can be frustrating, yet bizarrely humorous as well. Humans can be strange creatures indeed.

Yes, that is exactly the point I’m trying to make. If a person has filters in their mind, they will not be nothing/emptiness. Actuality will pass through filters and distort actuality. It will fragment the wholeness of the “other” person. There are many different firms of filters - including spiritual filters. For me, these are particularly sneaky and deceiving because they sound so spiritual, good, peaceful and lovey in my mind-body. As well, they can get reinforced by others around me - telling me how wonderful my spiritual filters are. Yet they will still cause fragmentation of the wholeness of reality. At the human level of connection, I do not experience other humans as an illness or problem. These are just terms that can be used in a practical sense. For example, last week a student with bi-polar came to my office to discuss problems. I don’t see his-mind body as being ill because “normal” is a myth. However, he came to my office to discuss what he sees as problems, in part due to his bi-polar condition. Here, I would not use the term “illness” - that would cause a major wedge of separation. I also shied away from the term “problem” because I could sense he had very strong emotional attachments and “problem” was a symbolic word for him involved with emotional attachment and identification. I observed that when I used terms like “difficulties”, “challenges” and “set backs”, his stories relaxed and we were able to connect on an emotional channel.

@Nahm It could be any situation. Let’s say someone came to a teacher and told the teacher they recently got divorced and they haven’t been able to date again. They feel ugly and not good enough. The teacher may then ask some questions about what the experience feels like - this could allow the person to get out of thought stories and into touch with their emotions. Yet there is no response from the other person. The teacher may try a different approach and ask the person to let go of thoughts and bring their attention to their breath. There is still no response and there seems to be a disconnect. The two are not connecting on an intellectual, emotional or empathic level. The teacher may sense that the student is so caught up in their own thought stories that he cannot hear her. The teacher may sense that the student is unwilling to listen to her words and is closed to her words. This teacher is not in tune with dynamics in the moment. Her empathetic and intuitive body modes are not picking up what is actual in the moment. This happens to “me” a lot and it is often due to very subtle self and knowledge filters. Rather than nothing, there is a something present that is filtering and distorting the actual energetics, The closer, I get to nothing, the greater chance of getting in tune with oneness occurs. In particular, blocks and separation to oneness are often revealed. In the above deaf-blind person, I could talk about oneness, separation, thoughts, trauma, gene expression, improper neuronal pruning, the illusionary construct of self, getting in touch with feelings - for an hour and it would do no good. Confusion may arise. If I stay in whatever paradigm I’m in, I won’t be open to the actuality of the moment. I could be in a neuroscience, psychology, metaphysics or spiritual paradigm. I could bust out some sweet deep teachings of Alan Watts, Leo, Sadguru, Einstein, Spiral Dynamics or Maslow. None of it matters because none if it’s right here. The actuality of Now is going through a filter of previous memories, thoughts, knowledge, beliefs etc. It can be extremely subtle ime. And it’s really easy to get immersed into. If one becomes nothing, all wisdom is possible and actuality reveals itself (although I would say previous technical learnings can be helpful in an aspect of this). . . . In this case the teacher evaporates. There are no more stories and filters of trauma, altered dopamine signaling, vibrational frequencies and so on altering the pure essence of now. All that stuff are subtle attachments. In that emptiness the insight for the teacher may arise - what is actual: in this case the teacher becomes aware that the person is deaf and blind. In other cases, something else will reveal itself. This opens up a whole new world of connection and communication with the person. From the emptiness, more insights will arise from the teacher. Whatever arises. The emptiness is now the “source” and is not going through filters built over time through previous leanings, knowledge and story attachments - these all distort actuality into a new story. Rather, what arises is totally fresh and new. It is perceived with clarity by the teacher because the teacher is both everything and nothing, rather than personal experience and knowledge filters. Actuality is a clear crystal of everything and nothing. It is pure openness. Then, sensations and ideas may arise in the moment. Stuff about neuroscience, Reiki, vibrational frequencies, empathy, philosophy, laughter, tears. Who knows? Love will express itself without filters and all bets are off at that point. True love will blossom. There is both oneness and connection of separateness. The octopus and all it’s tentacles. Then again who knows? Maybe a realization will arise that this is not true, partially true or both true and false depending on context and perspective. Who knows if these ideas will be relevant in an hour. Perhaps they are helpful and filterless now, yet tomorrow I may sit with a student and the attachment to this model may become a new filter that I need to let it go to return to the clear crystal. Then maybe ideas from Hick’s will arise from the emptiness and express itself as love in the moment and there will be emotional and empathetic connection. Maybe ideas from krishnamurti, structural images of the prefrontal cortex, psychedelic memories or strong body sensations of empathic energy will arise in the moment.. I have no idea what will arise. This awakening thing has gotten so bizarre, all bets are off. I’m going along with this crazy ass magical ride. . .

If a deaf and blind person came to a teacher for help, would it be helpful for the teacher to be aware he is deaf and blind? And take that into consideration as she communicates with him? It would seem spoken language would not be the best way to transmit a message in this situation. Using only a verbal communication mode here would likely be inefficient and cause confusion and frustration with everyone involved. It seems it would interfere with connecting on emotional and empathic channels.

If a seeker had earplugs in their ears and a blindfold on. Would a wise teacher be aware of this and communicate differently with this person than a person that could hear and see the teacher?

Entangle what?

@Anirban657 There is an energetic shift from tier1 to tier2. In tier1 the energy driving motivation to seek is primarily self-need based. This begins to diminish in green. The transition into tier2 involves an orientation shift from seeking self needs and desires to seeking to experience humanness and the magnificence of life. It is a very different relationship with the world. In tier1 there is a filter that distorts reality in terms of how everything affects the ego. Money, sex, prestige, inter-personal relationships are all viewed through a veil of the ego. Essentially “what's in it for me?”. In tier2, there are still desires and needs if the mind-body. It still needs to breath and eat for example. Yet the egoic stories and desires start to dissolve and new forms of “trans-egoic” desires arise.

I’ve found certain disabilities can be a super power along empathic channels of connection and communication.

I’ve noticed spiritual teachers have their retreats in a calm peaceful environment. During their interviews with participants, the audience is quiet. An environment with flashing lights, cowbells, sirens and awful stenches would interfere with a teacher’s ability to transmit their message and insights. It would be much harder to receive as well. Yet this environment would not reduce the profundity of their message.

For me, what is arising is context. If someone came to me with a nail in their head, I would say a discussion about how why create our own reality would be helpful. I would also say removing the nail and considering how to heal the structural damage is also helpful. I’m not saying one needs to choose between one or the other. They are inter-related. I’ve read a bit of Einstein and Jobs and don’t think they would disagree with this. To me, they seemed very in tuned with inter-connectiveness.

Yes, that would be based on a religious blue value. A church congregation can be a mixture of blue, orange and green. If a church had a strong profit motive, that would be orange

The context of my point here is that there can be structural brain injuries that should be considered when providing help to some patients. This is one of the most well-supported contributions from neuroscience and has value which can be integrated into talk therapy, psychedelic therapy and spirituality. I’m interested in developing the best modalities and I find integrated holistic perspectives of particular value in this area. Different people need different types of treatment and teachings. There is no one size fits all teaching. It’s more complex than that. I think communication between fields will lead to more effective methods. . . That’s just how my mind works, other minds are wired differently.

Good question. My resonance has changed over time.

@mandyjw I think she has a lot of value as well and can see how a lot of people resonate with her.

@mandyjw I can see value in her intention and approach, yet in my view it’s limited and she is not considering certain dynamics. Consider someone wired with a mind of depression or ptsd. There may be years, even decades, of physiological conditioning. The chromosomal structure and gene expression in the brain literally changes long term. Hormones such as cortisol have elevated levels leading to physiological anxiety. I think awareness of desires and seeing new perspectives is helpful, yet I think it’s naive to think one can heal themself so simply. I would say someone like Deepak Chopra has a more mature integrated view as he combines spirituality with physiology. In some contexts to mentally ill people, it is like she is telling someone who is paralyzed to get on a particular vibrational frequency and walk again. Yet rather than a paralysis of the body, some people have a “paralysis of the mind”. I don’t think she understands what that involves and how complex the treatment is. As well, I think this can limit her empathic abilities as she doesn’t understand structural brain injuries some people have.

@mandyjw I see the value of her message, yet I think she is overly simplistic and underestimating mind-body conditioning. I don’t think it’s just a matter of getting aligned on a particular vibrational frequency. Often times, minds need more complex release of blocks and rewiring. To me, it sounds like an over-simplistic version of “patient heal thyself”.

Some non-demonitional churches are green, others not. It depends on their underlying values. In general, non-denomination churches tend to be more inclusive and diverse - which are green values. Psychedelic users may have a baseline conscious level at any stage. Psychedelics are often attractive to those in the Green stage - they tend to be more open-minded and are attracted to what psychedelics can offer them. Such as heightened creativity and nondual senses of oneness, unity, empathy and love. As well, there is ego dissolution. High green is ready for this. The psychedelic experience can vault a person into tier2 temporarily. That is also attractive to many Greens - since they get direct experience with 1-2 conscious levels higher than their baseline conscious level