Forestluv

@Sauvik I love to hike and admire waterfalls in the springtime. What does this mean? Is hiking and waterfalls inherently meaningless? Do they inherently lack beauty? Or are they objectively beautiful? How could we test if they are inherently beautiful? Who would decided the tests or get to interpret the results?. . . These are questions that no longer arise in my mind while I'm in love with the direct experience of hiking and admiring waterfalls. . .

@Ponder Interesting story. I haven't heard that one before. Thanks for sharing it with us

@Surfingthewave Yea. Awakening isn’t for wimps. ?

The deeper question is whether Eckhart Tolle can chug down a six pack of beer faster than Adyashanti ?

Does 5-meo count as “food”? ?

Thinking within a past-future timeline isn't limited to stress and worry. My mind-body can engage is some wonderful past-future thinking. I may laugh with friends while reminiscing about some fun memories of the past. I may get excited about planning an adventure in the future. For a while, I tried to halt / repress thoughts within a past-present timeline - yet I've learned that isn't the best route for me. It just sets up an internal conflict and a struggle for control of the narrative. What helps more is awareness that thinking is taking place Now. It doesn't matter if it is thinking about the beauty of a song I'm listening to Now, regretting something I said in the past or worrying about something in the future. All of those thoughts are happening Now. Right now thoughts are flowing through my mind about taking a nature walk before it starts to rain. Those thoughts are occurring Now, just like the song I'm listening to is occurring Now. With this awareness, my mind-body generally relaxes a bit and a "higher" awareness and sense of being present arises.

Sure, from a self-centered perspective. Yet depending on the context, self-centered wants can have a negative impact to others and one's environment. Yes.

@Enizeo Music and spirituality are not mutually exclusive. It's not like you have to decide between becoming an olympic weightlifter or a horse jockey. Music and spirituality are highly inter-connected. Music and art is one of the best tools to explore consciousness. Ofc there will be time spent negotiating gigs and contracts, some time spent trying to figure out how to pay the bills etc. Yet along the path, there will be plenty of time to explore the overlap of music/spirituality/consciousness. For example, playing music is one of the best ways to enter flow states of consciousness - a form of meditation and nonduality. There is the exploration of the language of music as symbols and emotional expression. There is the collective consciousness with players in the band and the band with audience. Some of the most deeply conscious people I've met were musicians. Music is a natural form of expression for mystics. The musicians at an Ayahuasca retreat I did were off the chart talented in music and deeply conscious. Music and spirituality is a match made in heaven. It's like saying "I wish I had time to get into great physical shape, yet unfortunately I want to pursue a career as a professional athlete. . . "

Interesting how this is a list of "negative" symptoms that most people would like to eliminate, while holding onto the "positive" egoic stuff. To me, the list reads more like a personal development list to me - albeit a very healthy list for personal development. I'd like to see a list with all the "positive" egoic traits. It is so tempting to create a "good ego", "bad ego" dichotomy.

"On what basis" is a relative question. One could create an infinite number of bases in favor and against as well as an infinite number of mixtures of in favor/against. And rather than asking "should", why not get in touch with your heart and truest desires? Without the "shoulds", what do you feel called toward?

I'm not well-studied in QM, yet my surface-level understanding is that the results are quite radical. It is saying something physical is simultaneously material and immaterial. And that this material/immaterial is simultaneously everywhere and nowhere. My understanding of the latest experiment is that one observer sees superposition of everywhere/nowhere while another observer simultaneously sees position. This stuff isn't just talk about the relative nature of reality. These are high-tech instruments showing simultaneous existence/non-existence and simultaneous there and not there. Simultaneous nowhere/everywhere/somewhere. How can a "thing" simultaneously be nowhere/everywhere/somewhere. To me, this has radical implications for the nature of reality - and can be a link between science and mysticism.

@Lister Thanks for exchanging thoughts with me in the thread. You helped prompt me to gain clarity on a couple things I’ve been contemplating ♥️ ?

I wouldn't consider it a teaching, no more than I would consider bird chirps as a teaching. It just appears. Yet within the construct of a timeline, one could imagine causation. What "caused" these appearances to arise? This would get quite tricky indeed as there are an infinite number of causative inputs. Yet it certainly appears that my mind-body has been shaped by many occurrences within it's lifetime - including a wide variety of "spiritual" beings - both human and non-human. What has resonated with my mind-body has changed over time. If your question is in regards to "learning" about this through a teacher, book, video, philosophy, experience etc. - then there is no source in that regard. There is no one source. There have been many many that have influenced me. My mind is is not beholden to any teaching or idea. Each sources as a separate entity is very limiting. For me, a deeper level became "no teachers" and "all teachers". In terms of models of consciousness expansion, that is a major expansion. One of the keys of "liberation" at the human level is no attachment/identification to any idea. For example, a test for me at the human level is. . . can I let go of those ideas I just wrote about as I let go of bird chirps? Or do they mean a little bit more to me than bird chirps? Can I wake up totally fresh in this moment completely free of all these ideas? Or will my mind-body carry them around in a backpack? Are these ideas simply bird chirps floating by, or are they attached to my mind-body? Do I actually believe these ideas are true? Will I wake up tomorrow speaking of these ideas as if I believe them. If so, there is some attachment within the mind-body. . . "But wait. . . what I wrote is so profound and insightful. I invested many years for those wonderful insights. . . And I had that amazing Mu experience of nothingness. . . That's gotta count for something!! ". Such thoughts simply arise in the mind-body - it's part of the personal human story.

This reminds me of recent experiments in quantum mechanics. A photon can have a clockwise or counter-clockwise spin orientation. When it is not measured, it is in a superposition - the photon has both and neither spin orientation. Upon observation, the photon adopts either a clockwise of counter-clockwise orientation. Once observed, it has to spin one way or the other, right? So, without observation what is the spin orientation of the photon? Both and neither. . . It gets even more interesting to me. Recently a research group had two "observers". A researcher in one room made an observation of the spin orientation. The researcher in another room only monitored if an observation had taken place. After a while, the second researcher gets tired of waiting and calls over to the other room. "OK Bob, we've been waiting a while. Make that observation any time now. . . ". To which his colleague calls back "We already did Tim, it was counter-clockwise". . . So did that observation take place or not? Was that photon observed to have a counter-clockwise orientation? One researcher says "yes", the other researcher says "no". . . Strange Days. . .

There is no perfect word to use, yet I prefer to use the term "prior" than beyond because the human mind is highly conditioned to think and perceive within the construct of a timeline. For me, it's more straightforward to ask "what is *prior* to conceptualizing". Tons of stuff. In the construct of a timeline, conceptualization would "enter" near the end of the movie. Yet, this of course is trying to explain within a timeline. Within the dimension of Now, it becomes much much harder to explain since the human mind is not conditioned or oriented in this dimension. When it speaks of "now", it is actually referring to a "now" within a timeline. To me, those are very deep "levels" of consciousness. Yet I would say, there is still a "prior" so to speak. What you have written and what I have written (and am writing now) is an appearance within a mind. As much as my mind tries to go "prior" or "beyond", it cannot. In the end, such efforts could be seen as a waste of time or as a fun part of the human experience. For me, it depends on the mood of my mind-body. . . As soon as there is an appearance in the mind, it is a "somewhere". It is no longer "nowhere". Even a thought about "nowhere" is a "somewhere". Even ideas/images that there is "nowhere" beyond/prior to "somewhere" is a "somewhere". Any memory, image, feeling, essence, whatever is a "somewhere". Right now, I am "somewhere". For me, this is an extremely subltle attachment/identification. . . This subtle attachment/identification is not at the personal or egoic level, it is at the human level. This attachment/identification to humanness is apparent when I communicate with an awakened tree. What is communicated via an awakened tree is not what is communicate via an awakened human. What I am learning is that there is transcendence of humanness. All of this talk/experience of enlightenment, nonduality, awareness, consciousness, beyond, prior etc. is all within the realm of humanness. It goes through a human filter. One word or image is too much. Yet it is also part of humanness. Such explorations can be considered a waste of time or a fun part of the human experience. Imagine the word "Gintolfid" appeared. Please explain to me the essence of "Gintolfid". One could say it's silly to try and define/describe/explore the essence of "Gintolfid". Yet that is what many human minds like to do. So we can spend hours, days, weeks or years exploring the essence of "Gintolfid". We can go on retreats, read spiritual literature, take psychedelics, watch nonduality videos. We can spend thousands of hours meditating and contemplating the essence of "Gintolfid". We could also spend thousands of hours describing the essence of "non-Gintolfid". We could learn and experience an enormous amount. Yet at the end of the day, we are not any closer to the essence of "Gintolfid" because there is no essence to "Gintolfid". It is Nothing. It is Nowhere. There is Nothing to find and Nowhere to go. The journey is the destination. Yet the journey goes on. We can spend our time searching for "Gintolfid" or search for that which is beyond "Gintolfid" or prior to "Gintolfid". Or we can do something else - like learn how to communicate about the essence of "Lanhiblik" with a tree. Ultimately it doesn't matter, yet at the human level, it matters a lot.

I would consider these to be nondual experiences. There are various forms and degrees. I find them fascinating to explore and they have revealed many awakening., yet they are not “it”. Ime, the most effective way to “enter” a nondual experience is a moderate dose of a psychedelic. This puts the mind-body into a Now dimension in which the human story along the timeline dimension dissolves. A cannabis edible can have a similar effect. Others methods such as meditation, walking in nature, yoga etc may also induce nondual presence. For me, I had many brief glimpses that I never “caught”. After a few good looks at nonduality, it easier for them to arise. I think one key is relaxing the mind/body into deeply relaxed, yet alert, states.

@Faceless is a master in this "realm". When he was around, I did not appreciate his pointers. Recently, I've been reading through his old posts and they now resonate with me. He points to something very profound.

In terms of "awareness", there are many concepts of it lingering around. A soon as the mind thinks one word, it is too much. One word is too many, a million words not enough. The closest I can get is "nothing". What I consider "awareness" is one step removed from "nothing", yet very very close to it. If there was a movie from "nothing" to "everything", awareness is very early in the movie. It seems like the start of the movie, yet there is a "prior" to that "start". . . In contrast, conceptualizing awareness with words and images comes much much later in the movie. If it was a two hour movie, this would be around 1hr. 50min. into the movie.

I didn't use the term "awareness" nor tried to conceptualize "awareness" within the description of that experience.

Yes. And it's hella fun to explore and experience the perceptions of a human mind-body. Trans-human states of consciousness are pretty darn magnificent

Your post seems to capture the essence of the direct experience. Another visualization that arises for me is that I am suddenly transported into another realm, reality, world that I have never seen before. I don't know anything. What anything is in this world. What anything means. Then I try to relax into my current reality like that. Sometimes all the definitions and meanings can partially dissolve. For example, I may see a car driving by and it's like I've never seen one. It's so odd. It's a little moving box with some type of entity inside the box. . . These spaces can be so intriguing and magnificent.

That is a highly dualistic framework of separating beings into categories of "male" or "female". There is an enormous amount of exploration available, yet if the mind insists on two categories - that's all you get - two categories. There are many many aspects of "maleness" and "femaleness" that won't be explored. There is nothing wrong with a highly dualistic orientation, it's just limiting. It's like visiting Paris and limiting Paris to either the Eiffel tower or Notre Dame Cathedral. Nothing wrong with that, they are both beautiful creations. Yet, your exploration in Paris would be very very limited. The Eiffel tower and Notre Dame cathedral is not Paris - it is within Paris. There is A LOT more to explore in Paris, yet one would not have that opportunity when contracted within that dualism. Notice the mind's resistance and desire to stay within that dualism. Stuff like, "Huh, the only pictures I see of Paris are the Eiffel tower and Notre Dame. My friends just talk about the Eiffel tower. I just don't see anything else, there can't be more". . . It's silly, but that's what minds do.

That made me lol.

It seems like you have not yet had direct nondual experience. My sense is your mind is immersed in thinking and interpretation - trying to figure this out and make sense of it all. That will lock a mind into a highly dualistic framework - even if the mind is analyzing and conceptualizing nonduality. Ime, the thinking / analysis / conceptualization is insufficient for transcendence. One needs to go "above" that for the transcendence - because all that thinking / analysis / conceptualization is within a more expansive state of transcendent being. Yet the thinking mind will often resist that because it wants to control the narrative. It will want to stay contracted within thinking, analysis and debate for a sense of grounding and control of the narrative. There is a reference space of "yourself" beyond "yourself". As another not being another. This is just the direct experience. Go out in nature, shut off the thinking mind and observe. Let go of the thought stories and allow a more expansive awareness to arise within the experience of what Is.

@Neorez Thats a good question. . . I wish I had the answer, then I would be an embodiment machine Just a few thoughts about my experience that are appearing in my mind: 1. Conditioning. An insight and glimpse of direct experience doesn't always swipe the slate clean. The mind-body has been conditioned it's whole life to see in dualities and that generally doesn't go away with a nondual insight. For example, "good vs bad", "right vs wrong" and "perfect vs imperfect" dualities. I've had nondual experiences in which these dualities have collapsed. It's an amazingly fresh and beautiful perspective. Yet the next day my mind may be getting immersed into judgements of what is right or wrong "he is too this, she is too that, he needs to do yabber dabber, she needs to stop gibber badder" etc. 2. Part of the recurrent perception pattern is due to subconscious conditioning. The mind has simply been conditioned to see things a certain way thousands and thousands of times of its life. It can take a while to recondition. I think awareness is a big key. There are still thoughts that arise in my brain due to previous conditioning of what to notice in the world and how things should be. I've become much better at recognizing this and letting it go. In the past, I would get immersed into these thought patterns and not even notice it. After days or weeks of being immersed in it, there would be a realization "Whoa, I totally fell asleep into that old conditioned thought pattern". Rather than taking days or weeks, my mind generally recognizes it within seconds or minutes. Occasionally hours. Yet it's been years since I've gone days immersed in old thought patterns. 3. Conditioned thought patterns can give a sense of grounding, stability and comfort for a mind-body. A mindset of "I'm right and he is wrong". Can give a sense of grounding. "This is what's right. This is how things should be". It can feel sturdy. An ego and mind-body will like that. However, this is only a surface level of grounding and stability. It is a cover-up. Deeper down, the duality is untenable. Here there can be groundlessness. If everything isn't simply "right" or "wrong", what is it? Now I don't know. Could something be partially right and partially wrong? Could a person be both a good person and a bad person? At what point does good become bad? These questions reveal uncertainty and groundlessness and many minds will resist that because the ego seeks grounding to protect itself and the mind-body. 4. Get curious. Trying to reject the duality and embrace transcendence into nonduality can create a new duality: that is, duality vs nonduality. Yikes. . . This is a form of going from one extreme to another. Because the mind is conditioned into duality and spends 99.99% of it's life in duality, I find "flipping over" to the other extreme of nonduality to be helpful. Some nondual concepts, mostly in experience. Yet be aware of the minds tendancey to push away what it considers dual and grasp what it considers nondual. There is a lot to explore between the two. Take whatever duality you have been working with - rather than reject it, get in there and explore it. For example, how are perfect and imperfect related? How are they relative? Can something have aspects of both perfection and imperfection? Can something be more perfect than something else? Is it possible for something like a painting to be midway between perfect and imperfect? How does viewing something perfect feel? Go out in nature and observe, is the stream, birds, insects, plants etc. all perfect together? Or does the hot humid weather and mosquitoes make it slightly imperfect? 5. Observe the resistance that arises in the mind when dualities are explored. Allow curiosity and exploration of the unknown to guide you - rather than the mind's desire to create rigid rules for a sense of grounding. Observe how the mind resists and holds on to simple dualisms. Discover why your mind does this. What purpose does it serve your ego, mind and body? Once you discover how and why of this psychological dynamic - you will be able to recognize and release it much easier and the tendency will dissolve. It probably won't dissolve 100%, but even a 20% reduction will have a huge impact. A 60% reduction would liberate the mind-body into a whole new world of openness, exploration and discovery. 6. Rather than striving to go 100% nondual, I found it helpful to have a more practical goal. Last summer, I estimated I spent about 90% of my time within a dualistic mindset. I was immersed within the story of me and what life is. My mind-body was telling me it was too much. I knew I couldn't just "shut it off" completely, so my goal was to get up to having about 50% of my time beingness "outside" of programmed dualities. After three months of practice I felt like I was in this "space" about half the day and it changed the way I related to reality. Each day, I set aside time to simply be Now. To observe things appear Now. To be aware of what's happening Now. At first, that was mostly through sitting meditation. Yet then I could do it while mowing the lawn, walking through the neighboorhood or riding my bicycle. As well, I spent some time contemplating the relationship, nuances and inter-connections between dualities as I described above. My mindset was that of curiosity and exploration to discover - not a mindset of analysis and trying to figure this thing out. Over time extreme dualitstic conditioning began to dissolve and my mind just naturally started noticing inter-connectedness and nuances of dualities. I would say now my thinking/imaginary mind is roughly 80% within space "between" the dualities. Sometimes attachment/identification with a duality arises - for example "I am right on this issue", they are generally more inquisitive - for example I will notice my mind making a distinction between a tree and the earth it is attached to. Then I'll get curious and may ask "Is that tree and the earth really two separate things? Where exactly does the earth end and the tree begin? Could it be an "earth-tree" in which the tree and earth are One and the tree is simply an extension of the earth?". How interesting. These types of exploration journey and be magnificent. . .