Forestluv

You said earlier that you want to keep your gun to protect yourself from thugs. Why on earth would you give your gun to the thugs in this situation? Some billionaires and corporate CEOs/lobbyists are thugs. They bully and ripoff the public. The pharmaceutical industry leeches off public funding and charges outrageous prices. The health care industry drive families with a medical condition into bankruptcy. The banking industry drove tens of thousands of people into homelessness through toxic loans to squeeze out more profits. The military industry pushes us into perpetual wars around the globe. The oil and gas industry is leading the charge to destroy the planet. This is major thuggery. The last thing we need to do is roll over and give corporations more power. They have waaay too much power. We need to shift power toward people to evolve upward from Orange to Green. And that means electing officials not owned by corporate money, overturning citizens united, increasing corporate transparency and accountability, and supporting systems that give the public negotiating leverage. There are some good candidates running for office now that can help.

@Scholar This is unnecessary. Pyschedelic experiences can be absolutely terrifying and insane. Even sitting in one's room or nature. I can't even begin to describe some of mine. This can expand one's mind, yet I think it is a bad idea to manipulate an environment to try and induce trauma. If the mind-body was not experienced with psychedelics and highly developed this could cause serious damage, perhaps long term. I think it's much better to just allow the psychedelic to reveal what it reveals. Perhaps have an intention that suffering be revealed during the trip. Yet I wouldn't go further than that. Psychedelics can take a mind to a place of terror all on it's own. And it is as real as reality itself. Yet, I also agree with the flip side, that one should not chase or expect feel good candy during trips either.

Similar here. I did over 20 years of mediation without any substances. More was revealed in a 6 hr. trip than the previous 20+ years. Yet, I think it helped to have had that prior grounding.

This is a conditional, personal, human construct of awakening. It is not Ablsolute Awakening. A personal human construct of awakening as practical value in being human, yet it is still a relative human construct. When you say "because he is suffering as a separate ego entity", you have created the same separate ego entity as you are pointing to. You have created an entity called "Martin Ball" that is separate from you and that there are appearances in this separate entity that disqualifies it from being awakened. Within a personal/human construct, that has value and I often use that construct in my life. Yet that aint IT. As well, when you say "psychedelics show you how much manual work is still necessary for deep and permanent awakening" I would agree with that for awakening. Yet not for Awakening, which is not dependent on human conditions. From a relative, personal human perspective - I agree. If we create a construct of what spiritual development and progress is to a human - there would be many different constructs and no one would agree on all components - not even the most spiritually "advanced" practioners. This is inherent to be human in a relative world. First, you are creating a distinction in which there is a "psychedelic state" and a "sober state". You are giving value to the "sober state" as being the default state of reality and a "psychedelic state" is an altered state of reality. From this mindset, one will see psychedelics as an altered state in which one temporarily steps out of the default sober state to gain insights. Then once returning to the sober state, the sober mind will ask "what did we get from the psychedelic state that applies and benefits the sober state? Is this application/benefit permanent"? This is a construct you have created. This is the most common perspective because the mind has been conditioned to create a reality that it can make sense of and gives it grounding and practicality for survival. As well, it is reinforced in society. You could also see the psychedelic state as being equivalent to the sober state - yet this is very difficult for a mind to do. This isn't just relevant to psychedelics - it is relevant to all different mind states. One will be contracted within a value dynamic until this is realized. Yes, and it also transcends your entire personal/human construct of what awakening is. You are speaking of awakening, not Awakening. Yes, at the human level I would agree. I'm am a strong advocate for research in psychedelics and training practioners who use psychedelics for spiritual and therapeutic purposes. For example, I would like to see new infrastructure built for psychedelic-therapy - in which health care practitioners go through extensive training. 100 years from now, I think humans will cringe about how psychedelics were used. For example, desperate people suffering with mental conditions such as PTSD ordering psychedelics online and trying to self-medicate without knowledge and experience of psychedelics. I think in the future, we will be much more advanced. Someone with PTSD will be able to walk into a clinic for free and receive quality psychedelic therapy from a highly trained practitioner. I agree. Psychedelic revelations will be contextualized at the baseline conscious level of the user. I think having a basic foundation of maturity, development and stability is helpful. I think that would be interesting as well.

You are within a mindset of an external material objective reality. Consciousness is described without words and immaterially all the time. Look around you and observe. That is consciousness from the perspective of a personal human. Consciousness is commonly referred to in that context and I have no problem using that context. However, Consciousness also has a more expansiveness that you don’t seem to be aware of. Yes, from the perspective of a separate finite self. What is a brain? How does the brain function? What are neurotransmitters? Do you realize that people around you act as neutransmitters and alter your brain activity, similar to how neurotransmitters “inside” your brain alter your brain activity? You are seeing this from a separate individual physical consciousness and are not aware of a more expanded collective conscious. “Inside” and “Outside” of your brain is a construct. If you inspect very closely, this inside vs. outside duality will collapse. A simpler example is that the microbiome In your gut directly communicate and alter brain activity in your brain. Are the bacteria in your gut part of your brain? We can take this further and further and your concept of a separate individual brain will eventually collapse. It’s as if you are saying Paris is in France and I’m trying to tell you that Paris and France are within Europe. And you keep responding that Paris cannot be in Europe because Paris is in France. . .

You’ve already done Aya, so know what that is like. San Pedro was much more gentle. It was not possessive. I was allowed to leave and return. No anxiety. Deeply mystical.

What you are referring to as the “nature of time” is human concepts, abstractions - past, present, future and mechanisms of time. Sean Carroll speaks in concepts, abstractions.

@Schahin I’ve done both multiple times. San Pedro is very gentle, yet also very deep. It’s very different than Aya. They both “transcend the ego” and I’m not sure what you mean by “enlightenment”.

I like Yang’s future thinking and the principal of BI, yet I think the potential of BI will be greatly diminished by the the ultra wealthy and corporatism - they specialize in transferring money toward themselves. If we give BI, most of it will get stolen back by the ultra wealthy through various schemes - loans, tax schemes etc. I think it’s critical to change the infrastructure and power dynamics. In this area, I think Bernie and Warren are are strongest. Yet I think Yang is strong on future thing of AI. I think further development in AI will cause a lot of issues we are not preparing for. And of course that is the perfect environment for opportunistic power brokers to take advantage.

This misses the part about wealth inequality. I want programs, laws and regulations that promote fairness and equality. Consider the big picture. Here is one example: Public pays taxes -> National Institutes of Health -> Drug research and design at Universities -> Pharmaceutical companies sell drugs and keep all the profits. What’s wrong with this flow of money? The pharmaceutical companies are getting free labor and we are paying for it. Think about that. . . Your tax dollars are essentially paying the salaries of pharmaceutical employees. The pharmaceutical company then sells the drugs we already paid to create back to us at outrageous prices - and keeps all the profits!. Pharmaceutical CEOs are making hundreds of millions dollars off this scam. It’s like the teenagers pickpocketing the tourists, taking all the money and then charging the tourist to get their wallet back. It is unethical and we are getting screwed over. This is but one of many scams going on screwing over the lower and middle class. The lower class is already poor, so most of the wealth theft comes from the middle class. I am not on the scammers side. I am on your side. A pharmaceutical CEO is having a cocktail on his yacht laughing at how he ripped off Boddigger and she doesn’t even know it. He is laughing because billionaires have convinced thousandaires that the penniless are the problem. So no, I would not take your money. I’d go up to the pharmaceutical CEO, take the money he stole from you and give it back to you. Most people don’t see this dynamic because billionaires, politicians and the media create a smokescreen to keep the scam going. Yet people are starting to wake up and some politicians, like Bernie Sanders, are well aware of these scams and have the courage to speak up for us.

Yep. @Phoenixx There are things you can learn and experience that you are unaware of and hadn’t considered yet.

I would start by cutting back on the weed and to start building spiritual grounding through practices like meditation, yoga, journaling, shamanic breathing, spiritual videos etc. There are a lot of low hanging profound truths within your grasp, without psychedelics. If someone is stoned everyday with no spiritual foundation or grounding, it is less likely a psychedelic trip will be fruitful because the person will contextualize the trip in their baseline consciousness. Plus, you wouldn’t have spiritual grounding to integrate the deep truths. What good are deep truths if you don’t understand them and they make you anxious and confused? Adding ssris into the mix adds another variable and risk. Yet it’s possible. I would be cautious and prepare prior to tripping.

For those that use it recreationally, it can be a roller coaster of cool experiences. Spiritual and personal development is a different orientation. If you are interested in spiritual or PD practices - I would recommend consistent mediation, yoga, shamanic breathing, journaling, therapy etc. This may help get to underlying mental dynamics that are causing unrest. You would also likely get peaks of mystical experiences. I would also stay off forums that discuss psychedelics recreationally and engage in forums that discuss psychedelics spiritually and for PD. Or, you may not be interested in pursuing spiritual or PD paths and desire recreational use. That’s fine - there are plenty of other online forums into that - yet, we are focused on spiritual and personal development here.

now requires a past and future. now is relative to a past and future. That is a realities use of now. Absolute Now has no past or future. The deepest realization is through direct experience, not through conceptualizing. When past and future is transcended, one’s relationship with Reality is transformed. I think one key is to let go of a “time vs. no-time” duality. Notice how you are oriented that it must be time or no-time. This isn’t about rejecting time and accepting the opposite of time. It’s about setting that construct aside and having a realization of Eternal Now.

@Schahin Are you seriously considering or planning to use Aya or San Pedro? Or is this more for intellectual curiosity?

If you want to take a very high dose of psychedelics on ssris with very little experience - that is your perogative. Yet we do not condone that type of risky behavior with psychedelics here. And spiritual use of psychedelics is not like going to an amusement park for a cool experience others have been talking about.

50 mg is a very high dose. Furthermore, it can cross react with ssris and cause serious damage. This is how newbies get in over their heads. “I read on reddit that psychedelic effects are reduced on ssri so I tripled the standard dose to see if I get anything out of it. . .” Imo, what you’ve been writing is naive and reckless. I would encourage you to take this seriously, do a lot of research and be very cautious.

@Phoenixx I’m not disagreeing with you or saying you are wrong. You are describing now and are unaware of Now. Another way of saying it is you are seeing things along a horizontal axis of a timeline - with a past, present and future. That’s all fine and dandy. I am not arguing against that. There is also a vertical axis of Now. The vertical axis is infinite. The past and future does not exist along the vertical axis - they are only images appearing within the vertical axis. If you keep arguing for the horizontal axis, you will not be able to see the vertical axis.

Memories and predictions happen Now. Exactly. past, present, future is a construct. Nothing wrong with that, it has practical value in human life. With the realization of Now, the construct of past, present, future collapses and Everything is Now.

The smaller pictures have greater clarity. As I zoom out, it gets less clear. I’ve been a big picture on 5-meo and now I’m working to integrate small human picture with big trans-human picture. It helps knowing I’m oriented in the right direction.

This is the third thread you’ve started on 5-meo ssri interactions in the last few days. Starting multiple threads on the same topic is against forum guidelines

@Leo Gura When you said transcending death, it brought up this experience. Would this be a relevant analogy? While hiking in Sedona, I noticed that the prickly pear cacti were covered in some type of fungus. It looked like a nasty disease. Parts of the cacti looked healthy green, other parts were unhealthy greyiish / blackish. I loved the heathy green parts and recoiled from the infected parts. I felt bad for the dying cactus and wanted to help it. I felt disappointed that the wildlife was not being maintained in the trail system. Then I saw a sign saying the cacti are actually a symbiosis of cactus and many microorganisms living in harmony as One. This transcended my previous perspective and the cacti / microorganisms suddenly became so beautiful. I got up close to admire it’s beauty and I felt love for the whole thing.

Can Love be maximized - if Everything is Love? Is metaphysical love distinct from Absolute Love and common conditional love?

@Leo Gura That gives me greater clarity. Thanks.

That is a feature of SD theory. There seems to be Blue/Orange anchors in your essays. Imo, it's is more of an Orange perspective of Green than a Yellow perspective. Yet there may be some yellow elements re-contextualized at Orange. Green is more conscious than Blue. In an important context, it does not mean that Green is "superior" or "better" than Blue. The key here is to see relativism and absolutism in multiple contexts - which is a yellow level ability. Just as we wouldn't say a modern eagle is better than a dinosaur or an 8 y.o. child is better than a 4 y.o. child. However, that does not mean that the development and consciousness is equal, in relative terms. Yellow has an understanding of relativism and can see that Green is at a higher conscious level relative to Blue. Yet would not assign "superior" or "better" value judgement in the context you use. Importantly, yellow understands relativism and that in the absolute all perspectives are relative. Yet that does not mean that within relative constructs that yellow gives equal value to all perspectives. SD is a construct within relativism, not absolutism. The relativism of development is crucial here, because without this an Orange perspective will be over-emphasized. At Orange, one cannot see the relative higher advancement of Green over Blue and it will be tempting to criticize Green for lacking/forgetting Blue values. This can certainly be true, yet it is a highly limited Orange-level view. Orange is criticizing Green from below and will not be able to see from Yellow's perspective. This is one of the tel-tale signs that someone is viewing Green from Orange. Yet, this perspective can be highly sophisticated, logical and nuanced at Orange. As well, individuals with some yellow development can drop down to an Orange perspective in certain areas. Especially if they have Green issues. . . Yellow is looking at Green from above and can see Green deficiencies relative to Blue and Orange - as well as Green's lack of Yellow. Yellow will be able to see if Green is in need of working on some aspects of lower Blue/Orange stages, or if it is in need of further Green development/embodiment, or if the issue is due to lack of Yellow. For example, there are many stage orange logical thinkers on the forum. Some are sophisticated, intellectual logical thinkers. If an Orange-centered person on the forum is struggling to understand something, a Yellow level consciousness will be able to see if the struggle is due to not being able to properly utilize a lower level Blue binary mode of thinking, or the inability to utilize a yellow level relativism mode of thinking. At yellow, we acknowledge that all levels have value, yet understand the developmental. Developmental psychology is essential to understand SD. A yellow consciousness would not jump to conclusions that the problem Orange is having is due to deficiencies in previous levels because yellow can see below and above Orange. Most of the time, the Orange level person is struggling because they are not efficiently using their own level skills and/or are dropping down to previous levels. Often, the solution is to elevate Orange back to Orange and encourage further evolution to Green. . . Similarly, a well-developed Yellow can see when a person has not embodied Green - such as emotional intelligence, intuition and empathy. Orange will not be able to see this. Regarding the "ugly, toxic polarization" in the country - it is important to first recognize the developmental stages of Blue and Green without assigning personal inferiority/superiority to Blue or Green. . . There are multiple lines of development including cognitive, emotional, intuitive, spiritual etc. Green is higher developed and more expansive than Blue, yet less developed and less expansive than Yellow. For example, Blue is predominately binary thinking, while Green can utilize binary and logical thinking (as well as cultural relativism). This is why Orange and Green mock Blue so much. Green gets frustrated and annoyed with how simple-minded Blue is. Green can't understand how Blue can't understand something logical or culturally relative. Put a Blue-centered person on the Sam Seder show and watch what happens. Unhealthy aspects exist at both Blue and Green, yet will be more intense at Blue since Blue is at a lower conscious level. For example, all stages in Tier1 will blame other stages for their problems and will demonize other stages to a certain extent. However, Blue will demonize Green much more intensely than Green will demonize Blue. Go to a Trump rally and a Bernie Sanders rally and see the difference. Degree is very important here, so we don't create false equivalencies. This would obscure how we can help Green. Regarding toxic polarization, the problem is not so much that Green has forgotten Blue values, it is that Green is dropping down and playing on Blue's turf. Green doesn't need to work on it's own Blue deficiencies - it needs to rise back up through Orange and back into Green-centered - then continue to evolve toward yellow. One example is with the toxicity of "racism" in the country right now. A big part of the problem is that racism is largely getting contextualized into Blue level constructs - in part because Blue cannot understand higher level constructs and also because Orange level media does not favor higher level constructs. For example, racism is getting framed in a Blue binary construct of either you are a racist or you are a non-racist. In some contexts, this has value. Yet the problem is that Orange and Green has fallen down to Blue and is playing on a Blue field. The problem is not that Green doesn't understand binary thinking, it is that they are being contracted within binary thinking. As a consequence, context is lost. Important context. For example, Orange and Green can understand spectrums and Green can understand cultural relativism. Racism is along a spectrum. A person can be weakly, moderately or strongly racist. A person can be racist in some areas and nonracist in other areas. As well, everyone has subconscious biases regarding race. This is orange level thinking that both orange and green can utilize. It is not that Green has forgotten Blue values, it is that Green is not utilizing it's Orange/Green values and abilities. As such, the discussion has dropped to binary "you are either a racist or a nonracist". This plays into Blue's advantage and Green is falling for it. The spectral context is essential. For example, Trump is not 100% racist or 0% racist. On an orange-level spectrum we may say that Trump is 90% racist on a scale of 1 to 100. However, on a Blue binary construct, if Trump does one non-racist thing then he can't be a racist, because a racist is 100% racist in a binary construct. This gives Trump and his supporters cover: "How can Trump be a racist, he is friends with Kanye!!". This causes intense polarization because Trump can be 90% racist and everyone will be debating whether he is racist or not. On a binary construct, Trump is neither racist nor non-racist. Nobody would be. Notice how the Orange media plays to this frame and how Green has fallen for it. Green doesn't need to improve their binary thinking skills, they need to level up and use Orange level thinking skills. As well, Green needs to elevate back to their Green center - which involves cultural relativism and empathy. A good example of this is AOC. She recently gave a speech in which she reached out to young men that have become immersed into white supremacy. She reached out by trying to connect with them emotionally - she showed cultural relativism by trying to understand their cultural perspective and showed empathy by acknowledging their suffering and encouraged them to return "home" and that we will love you. This is Green. AOC doesn't need to drop down to Blue-level constructs. Once at Green, it would be beneficial to continue evolving to yellow. For example, seeing the relativism of racism and the fallacy of assuming objectivism regarding racism. That's not to say binary, spectral and objectivism has no value - it is to say adding in yellow-level relativism would expand our consciousness - yet we are many years away from this. There are multiple lines of development and linear development is an over-simplification - yet has value in some contexts. A person is not 100% one stage. We are a mosiac of stages in different proportions along different developmental lines. Someone is said to be "centered" in one level. The level they are predominately operating in and seeing the world through. For example, my mother usually sees the world through a blue lens. She would see people as racist or not racist. She would see Catholics as "good" and Muslims as "bad". Yet she has some capacity for Orange level thinking. When pressed, she would acknowledge that not all Catholics are "good" and that not all Muslims are "bad". A good example of this at the population level is Trump's comment that "Mexicans are criminals and rapists". This resonated very strongly with Blue - both cognitively and emotionally. Blue sees it as "Us vs. Them". Mexicans are not us - they are the "other" and there is a visceral Blue level emotional response as well. However, Trump and most of his followers have some capacity for Orange. So when called on this, some Trump supporters responded "Well, Trump didn't say ALL Mexicans were racist, he also said that there are some good ones as well". Yet a Green or Yellow level consciousness can easily detect the fallacy of this. That comment and reaction was at a Red/Blue level. Trying to veil it with some Orange will only fool Blue and Orange - not Green or Yellow. Green and Yellow understand the underlying dynamics because they are two conscious levels higher. People don't move up and down the spiral as if they are proficient in all levels. Imagine Blue is a pair of scissors, Orange is a saw and Green is a chainsaw. Someone might be great at using a pair of scissors, unsteady with a saw and barely be able to use a chainsaw. It's not like they can go up and down the spiral using scissors, a saw and chainsaw. They will be most comfortable using scissors and will get gradually better at using a saw and even more gradually better at using a chainsaw. They might try to cut a branch with a pair of scissors and realize a saw would be better and try to learn the saw. If such a person saw a forest they would be overwhelmed. As well, these are not always smooth transitions. Part of SD theory involves resistance and a crisis to evolve further. For example, an Orange-centered person may be very successful in their career. They have received many awards. They are very knowledgeable and have done a lot of personal development. They have a high salary and are financially independent. . . Yet this person may reach a classic Orange level crisis in which it's not working anymore and they are unhappy. They may seek relief by striving for more personal success, yet this will only deepen the crisis. What they lack is a sense of community, empathy, inter-personal love and human bonds at Green. Yellow can see that evolution along the spiral includes both linear and nonlinear evolution. And there are both horizontal and vertical axis. At higher yellow levels, this expands into many more dimensions along many more developmental lines. Yet this can become quite complex and cumbersome and unpractical in conversation. Of course. Every stage utilizes binary thinking - including yellow. How could we have a coin toss to start a football game without binary thinking??!! Regarding the view "my way is right, your way is wrong", does involve binary thinking. Yet this is example is more a Tier1 dynamic. There is a lack of relativism understanding. As well, there is a personality dynamic "my" view and "your" view, as well as attachment/identification to that personal view. This personality dynamic largely dissolves into Tier2. It runs very very deep, so I would not say a high level of purity is necessary. However, Yellow is much less about personalization and has much less attachement/identification to ideas. They are much better at considering and holding multiple perspectives without attachment. At it's heart, yellow loves perspectives and sees value in all perspectives. Yet to varying degrees, an undeveloped yellow may be able to have a yellow-level conversation with a solid yellow person, yet would drop down to Orange while having conversations with an Orange-centered person. As well, every Tier1 stage blames other Tier1 stages for problems - because they are still highly contracted within a personality construct. Blue will do this more intensely than Green. No. Racism exists at each stage. Yet there are differences in degree. And each stage perceives racism through a different lens. Notice how Green calls Blue racists and Blue calls Green the "real" racists (e.g. "reverse-racism" is a common Blue perception). You are equalizing here. Green has a more expansive sense of community than Blue. You are also equalizing intensity. A very important component of the spiral is intensity. Green fear of the other is less intense than Blue fear of the other - since Green is at a higher conscious level. I don't think you are seeing yellow-level relativism. Yellow sees value in all perspectives, yet does not see all perspectives equally valuable. Each stage will have healthy and unhealthy aspects - yet lower level unhealthy-ness will be unhealthier than higher stage unhealthy-ness. For example, an unhealthy red level person may seek revenge by killing someone who did them wrong. An unhealthy orange-level person may seek revenge by libelling an adversary. They are not the same degree of unhealthy-ness. You are again missing degree and extent. Both are egocentric, yet Blue is more egocentric than Green That is unhealthy blue. Unhealthy Green would be gossiping and shaming a boss that is misogynist and homophobic. They key is that the other person violates a Green value, such as equality or inclusion and Green responds in an unhealthy way. Another example of unhealthy Green would be throwing blood on someone wearing a fur coat or blowing up a gas-guzzling SUV. Here, the Green is trying to protect what they value (animal welfare and the environment) in an unhealthy way. That is Green. Cultural relativism, love, and inclusion. Those are hallmarks of Green.