Forestluv

During my upbringing, we had a major hurricane about once every three years. So it was a big, exciting event for us kids. During the initial hurricane surge, we would be inside creating boats out of paper, cardboard, plastic, wood scraps, glue, staples etc. Then during the eye of the hurricane our parents would let us play outside. We would run to the gutters, which were rapidly flowing with water - like a thin river with rapids. We would have boat races. It was an incredible dream world. . . After a while parents could be heard screaming for the kids to come home, because the eye of the storm had ended and the back half of the hurricane was entering. It was like our parents were trying to wake us up from and dream and we didn't want to wake up. Fun times.

@remember Of course nonduality should be taught differently to children and adults. The question of love being twisted is seen through the lens of a conditioned adult. An adult that sees "good" vs "bad" and "love" vs. "hate". Of course deconstructing that will be uncomfortable to adults. Yet children are prior to the creation/attachment/identification to that construct. . . If I told you fligfod = tuglin, it would not be a problem for you because you have not created, and become attached/identified, with a construct of fligfod vs. tuglin. If I told you there was a planet in which aliens believed fligfod was good and tuglin was evil, yet ultimately they are the same - you would have no problem with that because you have no attachment/identification with fligfod and tuglin. As well, you do not base your survival and well-being on fligfod and tuglin. . . Similarly, children have not yet become attached/identified to adult constructs - constructs that adults portray onto children. . . This is very difficult to see for adults because we are identified and immersed within these constructs and are unable to deconstruct back prior to our immersion into the construct.

ordinary, casual, dull, boring finale = extraordinary, intriguing, fascinating beginning. The journey itself is home. Welcome to rarefied air. . . Some great exploration is available.

@rememberIn some ways, introducing nonduality to kids is completely natural. If one introduces a child prior/during the construct of the self it is no biggie. For example, if a five year old is conditioned to realize that we create the construct of a self and it isn't real - it's no big deal. Similar to when a child has a nightmare and we tell the child that it's ok, it's just a dream. The child can also see that waking life is also a dream. To us adults, it's a radical idea - yet so was the internet. And know kids accept it as obvious. Recently, quantum mechanics is showing that two entities at a distance can be in immediate communication with each other and that material and immaterial can have simultaneously be everywhere and nowhere. This is radical to adults, yet when children are taught this - it will be like OK. It won't be any more radical than the internet to them. My 9 y.o. niece is an expert lucid dreamer. She has created a highly sophisticated dreamworld that is very real. She is having difficulty differentiating between her dreamworld and waking world. All the adults around her are telling her that there is something wrong with her. That she needs to let go of the dreamworld and fully accept her waking life as the real world. This may have practical value in being able to function in a waking world in which 99.9999% of the humans think is real. However it has also caused her immense anxiety and panic. I'm the only one she can talk to in which dream = real and real = dream. If all children were taught that there was one continuous dream, it wouldn't be a big deal. Kids would be like "OK, when do we get ice cream"? . . . It's an existential threat to adults because we have a lifetime of conditioning in which we created a personal story and an external reality of waking life.

@traveler The gateless gate = mayaless maya.

@SoonHei You have created a distinction/duality between "waking state" and "dream state". Within your construct: "Waking state" = awareness of "true state". You've now added in a second and third dualities (awareness vs. unawareness and true state vs. false state). Further dualities are added with "true self vs. false self" and "knowing vs. unknowing". There are lots of inter-related dualities to deconstruct. For example, your "aware vs. unaware" duality overlaps with the "knowing vs. unknowing" duality. To me, there are a lot of tangles that can be deconstructed to aware vs. unaware. Imo, the waking vs. dream part is a distraction. Someone can be in a waking state daydreaming and unaware. Someone can be in a waking state and drunk and unaware. It boils down to aware vs unaware. I would take a closer inspection of this duality. Who/What is aware/not knowing? Who is aware/knowing. What thing is being awared? What thing is known? . . . From the OP, it looks like you might say awareness of the "true self", yet this sets up another duality. What is the "true self" vs. the "false self". These dualities have practical purpose. A human won't survive without making distinctions between things like waking life and dreaming life. As well, there are realizations of self vs. Self that few humans realize. . . You are asking some advanced questions which boil down to this: What is "True Knowing" vs. "False Knowing"? This gets into ineffable zones. As well, remains aware adds in a timeline. "Remains" requires a construct of past, present and future. This is one of the things humans commonly construct and chase. They create a construct of "awareness/enlightenment/awakening", believe that state/ISness can become permanent and desire/chase that permanence. This has practical purpose at the human level, yet it opens up another can of worms, because there is another dual construct to deconstruct. For example, many people see Eckhart Tolle as permanently enlightened. Yet what does that mean? This can vary. One might say he has transcended the personality and no longer has egoic impulses. Yet what if a single self-centered thought appeared in his mind? Would that invalidate his "permanent awareness of knowing"? Would he need to start the clock over? . . . Others may say that enlightenment is the permanent transcendence that is aware of all happenings. Yet what if there is a nano-second in which Eckhart doesn't have transcendent awareness of all happenings? Would we restart the clock on Eckhart's enlightenment streak? What about when he is asleep? . . . Others may say that at the human level, there is a process of "forgetting" and "remembering", yet the transcendent awareness is eternally present and accessible, even when the human "forgets". Yet at the human level, what is an acceptable amount of "forgetting"? To me, it looks like you are digging into some deep trans-human zones transcendent of human experience, perception and construction. In the context of human stages, one generally transcends the personality construct first and recognizes that the entire personal story is simply appearances, Now. Identification/attachment to personality dissolves. Yet even after transcending the personality construct, there is still the human construct. A being can have trans-personal awareness, yet still be identified/attached to being an impersonal human. Transcending humanness goes beyond theory, because all theory is a human construct. . . Trans-human essence trying to describe itself through human words often sounds wacky and nonsensical. For example: "There is nothing you can see that is not a flower; there is nothing you can think that is not the moon" - Matsuo Basho

I'm pointing to something different. I think you have created a well-thought-out construct. The other dynamics I'm pointing to aren't so much an intellectual thing. If you were a different person with vastly different life experience, you would see things differently. You seem to be categorizing SD categories in a theoretical construct. There is nothing wrong with that, it has a lot of value. Yet ime, there is more. There is a non-theoretical understanding via direct experience. You seem to be looking at others from the outside, which is important for a meta-view. Yet another component of understanding is going inside and becoming that other person. I think you are seeing a hierarchy of perspectives along a vertical axis, which has a lot of value. Yet there is also perspectives along a horizontal axis without a hierarchy. Imo, integrating both axis leads to the most holistic perspective. For example, you have twice used the term "jealousy" which is an outside view and portrayal. Seeing through a lens which interprets some as "jealous" and others as "compassionate" will miss underlying human dynamics. It is dividing groups into a vertical hierarchy and missing the horizontal axis. The families I lived with in poor third world countries were way beyond "jealous" and they had aspects of Green you seem to be missing. Within days of living in such villages, compassion transform to empathy. There is a "getting it" at a post-intellectual human level. They had an understanding of certain forms of human dynamics, human connection, community and empathy. They had a lot of viewpoints that I would consider as valid as yours. A construct using "jealousy" and "compassion" regarding the poor and non-poor is a privileged viewpoint trying to control the narrative. Your perspective isn't simply relative to the current U.S. situation - they are also relative to you - based on your life history and the lens you are wearing. It is not objective. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your perspective and you probably know a lot more about financial theory than I do. I'm saying there is more going on. . . When I wrote of direct human experience of living in a poor Honduran village, you responded "Hondurans however live in a third world country, they haven't even fully entered stage orange". To me, this sounds like an outsider making judgments without direct experience. My guess is that you've never actually lived in a third world community. This type of direct experience expands minds beyond a particular intellectual theory. There are lots of realizations and awakenings in this area out there. It's just a different mode of being and seeing. I've lived in both advantaged and disadvantaged environments. When I see an advantaged perspective not incorporating a disadvantaged perspective it can be upsetting to me because the advantaged get to write the narrative and the disadvantage get marginalized - they don't get a seat at the table. The advantaged have power and influence. They are the ones that get to define terms like "value", "success" and "just". That is actually an injustice, which your definition did not include. . . When I see this power dynamic, sometimes I want to jump in and inject some disadvantaged perspective. . . We don't seem to be on the same frequency here, which is fine. All I have is a perspective as well.

I've used a standard dry herb vape at 428F. They are designed for cannabis yet work for 5-meo. It's probably inefficient since 428F is under the optimal 5-meo vaping temp. Yet if I lose 1mg worth per session, it's not a big deal to me. One thing I like is that it allows one to control the intensity. It doesn't have the wave-like breakthough force like plugging - which is cool too, just a different experience.

Going from 100% to 99% is a big step, yet just a step. Next is to explore between 99% and 1%. The final step is to go from 1% to 0%. Then you have gone from 100% to 0% and will see that Real= Imagination and Imagination = Real. One can now create constructs of differences between Real and Imagine - as well as deconstruct back to Real = Imagine. The deepest insights are beyond intellect and may appear nonsensical to the intellect. You can only go so far with things making sense cognitively. A helpful thing is to enter spaces in which you cannot tell the difference between reality and imagination - for example through psychedelics or lucid dreaming. Yet it can get really intense and scary for some minds.

One of my favorite parts was when the were reading the same script to a person, testing for “fidelity”. When I finally realized what was happening, I went into a psychedelic-like mindfuck. Fun stuff.

I’ve found micro and mini doses to be helpful fir integration and bridging the “two worlds”. Including low dose 5-meo. You might also consider vaping - it gives you much mire control over intensity and hitting a moderate “sweet spot”. There is only so much the mind can handle in one shot. . . You referenced “altered states”. With enough experience, “altered” vs “unaltered” breaks down - the two gradually get closer and closer together.

@OBEler The mind is conditioned to think/perceive in dualistic opposites such as: Real vs Imagined Literal vs Non-literal A simple example would be the “heads” and “tails” sides of coin. They appear as opposites. Yet they are inter-related and One coin. Someone may say “Heads = Tails”. This helps to reveal that the opposite sides are One. We create the difference between heads and tails. We create the difference between real and imagined. Asking “Are you literally saying that heads = tails?” will put a person into the weeds. In the context of a human construct of heads vs tails, there is a difference. Yet in the context of One coin, there is no difference. Adding in the term literal creates an extra dualistic variable to work through. Regarding real vs imagined, a good way to break the duality is to see the inter-connectedness of the two. Have you ever been in a grey area of real and imagined? Perhaps daydreaming or waking up from a dream? Or memories that you weren’t quite sure if you were imagining it or not? How about optical illusions? See if you can see a little bit of imagination in reality and a little bit of reality in imagination. . . Going from 100% to 99% is a bigger jump than 99% to 1%. Just putting a crack into a duality can allow floodgates to open.

I've been hoping that mainstream media and politicians would develop Green level understanding and empathy for both the people Trump is harming AND Trump himself. Of course Gabor Mate, one of the highest Green-level empathic clinical psychologists alive, recognized this years ago. In the video below, Mate describes Trump's trauma and how he is acting out as a traumatized person. Mate does not condone Trump's behavior, yet understands it from a compassionate and empathetic perspective. Mate spent many years of his life immersed with traumatized individuals and has both cognitive and embodied understanding. I've noticed that many liberals and progressives are upset over the harm Trump is causing others (e.g. children isolated in cages along the border). They have a compassionate and/or empathetic connection with those that are being harmed and want that harm to stop. They see Trump as a villain. In one context this is true and I support stopping Trump's harmful behavior. From another perspective, Trump is a traumatized person that is suffering. It is very difficult to see this due to the harm he is causing others. I think this is a good example of how a person can expand their capacity to love. I see Trump both as a villain that is harming others and also a person that is suffering within a traumatized hellish reality. I can feel both distaste and compassion for Trump. As well, I can feel some empathy - I've experienced trauma, insecurity, anxiety and panic - I know what that's like. If U.S. society is evolving into Green, I would expect to see more people start to recognize this empathetic perspective. One form of resistance to this empathetic embodiment is the belief that it means we are condoning Trump's behavior. This is not true. We can have empathy and compassion for a traumatized mentally ill person while also taking vigorous action to point out and stop the harmful behavior. I'm starting to see more "mainstream" people recognize this. Below is an article written by a Republican who worked in the Reagan and Bush administrations. His article is a common perspective that Trump is a narcissist, has disordered personality, gaslights, creates chaos etc. and that he is unfit to be president. Yet, he almost touches green here: " Trump is profoundly compromised, acting just as you would imagine a person with a disordered personality would. Many Americans haven’t yet come to terms with the fact that we elected as president a man who is deeply damaged, an emotional misfit." The author does not have the empathetic awareness of Gabor Mate, yet I think it is a step in the right direction and an indication of what a transition to Green might look like. The author recognizes that Trump is mentally ill, damaged and emotionally 'misfit'. Yet he doesn't yet have the awareness of the underlying trauma suffering within Trump. In contrast, Mate is empathically oriented and would not call Trump an 'emotional misfit'. Contemplations that might help the author to develop Green might be: "What did the person go through to become 'damaged'?". "What is the experience like to be damaged, mentally ill and emotionally unfit?". . . This is still at a surface empathic level - most people are not empaths and would need some more "umpf". This might involve volunteering in a clinic with individuals that are 'damaged', mentally ill and are emotionally suffering. A deeper level might be to use psychedelics. Psychedelics can amplify one's empathy. They can also put a person into that state of mind. A psychedelic trip can enter mental realms that are 'damaged', insane and emotionally unfit. One might experience a form of trauma during a trip. Both of these features of psychedelics can lead to a deeper empathetic understanding and an expansion of one's capacity to understand and love others. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/donald-trump-not-well/597640/

@Progress You describe reasonable, logical definitions of “just”, “success”, “ethical” and “value”. . . I’ve also heard reasonable perspectives that are somewhat different than yours. For example, I lived in a poor village of Honduras for a while and they had a different perspective than yours. I think your perspective is grounded and makes some good points. Yet there are also other ways of looking at it that also make some good points. For example, you suggest a vendetta against the super rich based on jealousy. There are other dynamics occurring as well. . .

@Beginner Mind If you act as a non-dick by your standards, you can still have plenty of personality that can attract. Dick-ishness is just one personality trait. Another would be a personality of humor. Many women are attracted to a guy with a great sense of humor that can make them laugh. Imagine you were learning to play guitar and you were out on a first date in a bar. There is a jazz jam on stage. You want to play guitar for a bit. You are nervous yet rwant to push yourself out of your comfort zone. You take a deep breath, walk upstage and play two songs well. At the end of the set, a couple musicians sit down and chat with you and your date. . . You made a very bold move that most women would be very impressed with and attracted to. And your bold move had a Dick Factor of zero.

Those are huge assumptions. If the bank robber justly earned his money, who are we to steal it? Success should be rewarded, not punished. Relative lenses of perception act as filters. “Justly”, “success” and “value” are highly relative lenses that bend perception. Unquestioned assumptions allow for paradigm lock.

@Raptorsin7 It sounds cool to me. If you are honest and respectful to her and care about her well-being, she probably won't bad-mouth you to her yoga instructor friends. That would be very cynical. This type of thing is pretty easy to pick up on in one or two dates. If she is cynical it's pretty obvious. The fact that she does yoga is a good sign she could be stage green on the SD scale. They are fairly rare. Green isn't too self-centered and transcactional. Greens generally don't want to bring others down, especially if you treat her well. And Green sex is amazing. You mentioned you want to transition away from regular sex flings. I imagine you could learn a lot from her and grow a lot. If she is into Yoga, it's very likely she is into other Green things - healthy diet, fitness, open communication, creativity, spirituality etc. The key for me would be if it was open, honest and mutual. If I started to feel like I was taking advantage of her for my own gain, I would back off.

You told her you only want a casual fling and she is still interested and wants to see you? That would be very appealing to me. Especially since she is into Yoga. That can be a great fling. . . I would just casually mention the Yoga studio with something like "I noticed you go to xyz Yoga. I've been going there to. It's a great group of people". Then she how she responds. I think this is useful for her to, she might not want to have a fling with someone at the studio. For all you know, she may hope to find a long-term partner at the studio someday. . . It could be awkward if you hook up and then she is surprised to see you at yoga class. Yet I would just bring it up casually, without any drama or creating an issue. Who knows, she may have just gone a couple times and prefers another studio. For me, I would also be mindful of how good the chemistry is and her maturity level. If the chemistry is meh, it's probably not worth it. Also, many gals say they are open to a casual fling, yet want more. They actually do believe they just want a casual fling and aren't aware of how they might get emotionally attached. I would try and get a sense if she really does have a casual fling personality and could handle it. Things like her mentioning she would like to introduce you to her family early on would be a red flag that she isn't oriented toward a casual fling. I wouldn't overtly bring this stuff up like it's an interview. I would just get a feel for it. How she acts and behaves and your chemistry. . . There won't be a problem while you are in the fling. It's all fun and games. Even at the yoga studio. You two might agree to have a secret fling and give each other coded sexual suggestions during yoga. Or you might decide to let others know. . . The problem comes with the breakup and how that goes. Then it could get uncomfortable at yoga. Imagine if one of you starts dating someone else and you see each other at yoga. When people get emotionally involved, it can get messy. Both men and women can get emotionally involved, yet women have stronger emotional bonding hormones after sex than guys.

It sounds like you want to compartmentalize your flings into one compartment and yoga into another compartment. Nothing wrong with that. I would just be honest with her and tell her that you prefer not to date someone within your yoga community. I don't date anyone at my work, especially not for a casual fling. It's common for people not to want to date within inner circles. If things got messy in dating, it could spread to the social group. I would also look at the underlying cause of the discomfort. You mention things like "your reputation" at the yoga group. It sounds like you want anonymity within a fling, in case things get messy - which could happen. It seems like you are trying to play two characters. A wholesome health-conscious person in the yoga circle, and a flingster of hookups outside of yoga. Nothing wrong with that. We play multiple characters in life. My co-workers know very little about my personal escapades and I wouldn't have a fling with a co-worker. . . However, this can get out of control. A guy can want anonymity to escape consequences of bad behavior. For example, if a guy manipulates a gal for sex and doesn't want anyone to know about it. That is very different than a consensual fling in which both people know what they are getting into. Personally, I would be very cautious about getting into a consensual fling with someone within my social group. I know I could handle it, yet many women say they are open to a casual fling, yet deep down want a relationship. After a couple times of sex, they can get emotionally involved beyond a casual fling. This can cause messy ripple effects.

@Pilgrim That sorta sounds like an experience I had in a sensory deprivation tank.

The forum is a community of members exploring spirituality, self actualization and consciousness. Things like namecalling is against forum guidelines since it has a negative impact on the community. You can make your points without namecalling and proselytizing. As I indicated to you, this is described in the forum guidelines. If you would like to participate on the forum according to the guidelines, you are welcome to. However, you can't enter and decide to make up your own guidelines. It doesn't work that way. You can read the guidelines here: https://www.actualized.org/forum/guidelines/

Of course. No player thinks it is fair when the referee calls a foul on them. You have received warnings from two different mods so far. If you want to learn how to discuss/explore religious ideas in the context of spirituality/self actualization/consciousness while being respectful to others, I encourage you to read some previous threads that included religious ideas. There is a search function at the top of the page. As well, you can use google.

You missed something: If a soccer player commits a foul and instigates a conflict and the other player responds with a foul - the first player usually gets called for the foul. You created this thread and dynamic and need to take personal responsibility for staying within the forum guidelines. You have recently created three threads that have all devolved into religious dogma (or "anti-religious" dogma) and religious debate. You are the common denominator. https://www.actualized.org/forum/guidelines/

Why would one want to worsen themself? Wouldn't that seem odd? The personality has evolved and is oriented toward self survival, comfort, security and pleasure.

@Gnostic Christian It is ok to discuss religious teachings in the larger context of spirituality, self actualization and consciousness. However, it is against forum guidelines to dogmatically promote any religion or to incite religious debate.