Forestluv

Your desire and curiosity to explore and discover is awesome. One thing I've found is that if I create a situation in which there is a "secret, perfect" thing and nothing less will do - it can be counter-productive. For example, I wanted to learn Spanish in the most efficient, best way possible. I looked all over for the best language learning tecniques so I can learn it efficiently and quickly. Yet, each method seemed to have nuances and a downside. I thought "there must be a secret method that is the best, with little downside" I even spent time on iTalki forums asking about "secret methods". . . I had a genuine desire to learn Spanish the best way possible, yet guess how much actual Spanish I learned during this time. . .

If it's working for you, then I am happy for you. Hopefully what I wrote is helpful for someone else reading the thread.

Also be mindful of appeals to authority. In the context of open-ness, it can have value. In the context of personalized righteousness, it can reinforce contraction. In the Spanish example. . . two people might have differences in their understanding of the subjunctive tense. One person may go to a native Spanish speaker and ask "Is this correct"? Be mindful of underlying desire and orientation. For example, are we restricting ourself to a binary model of right vs. wrong? Perhaps it is not about theory vs embodiment. Perhaps it is about theory and embodiment. As well, is our motivation to learn and grow or is it. . . "I think I am right and he is wrong. I am going to ask a native speaker and prove him wrong". . . That is a very different orientation than "Perhaps I have a blind spot, yet I'm not sure if this person is correct. Perhaps I should ask a Spanish teacher to see if I have a blind spot." These are very different orientations and energetics which will affect one's capacity to deepen and expand their knowledge. You are missing the point. There is now a "me" vs "you" dynamic as well as "right" vs. "wrong". At this point an exploration is not possible. We are not on the same frequency and there is no point continuing the dialog, it would be counter-productive at this point. I am not saying you are wrong. I actually think you have some good ideas. Yet I don't want to debate and argue "your ideas" vs. "my ideas" and who is "more evolved". I prefer explorations, which you are not interested in - which is fine. We just aren't on the same frequency and orientation. . . .Happy trails to you.

Personalization is part of the contraction. There is a trans-personal realm. If we were having a discussion about a bizarre insect only found in the Amazon forest, it would be impersonal. We would both be curious and desire to explore and learn. Neither of us is attached/identified to being the Amazonian insect. This would be a Tier2 trans-personal exploration. . . . Adding in personal attachment/identification alters the energetics. . . Perhaps one person says "I've actually been to the Amazon and saw this bizarre insect". An impersonal response might be "Oh my gosh! I've only seen it on YT videos. What was it like in person?"". Notice how this open-ness allows for exploration and learning. . . What happens when it gets personalized?. . . "This guy think he knows more than me. He thinks he is special because he has been in an Amazon forest. He thinks he is better than me. Well, I've also been in forests. He has no idea who I am and he is judging me. I'm going to show him I know more than him". Adding in these personality dynamics alters the energetics. It is no longer a free exploration of an amazing insect in the Amazon. It is now a personal debate, rather than an exploration.In terms of evolving/expanding/learning, it can be a block. For example, I am at an intermediate level of Spanish. If I have an attachment/identity of being fluent in Spanish, it is a block. For example, if another person who speaks Spanish tells me "I noticed you haven't been using the subjunctive tense very much, it might be something to look at". I could reply "I know the subjunctive tense. I've actually lived in central and south America. You don't even know me.". . This creates conflict. . . Without the personal dynamic, I may respond "I hadn't noticed that. Maybe I am missing something. Could you give an example how I might expand my use of the subjunctive? I studied Spanish in Peru, perhaps the use the subjunctive differently. . . Oh, you studied Spanish in Spain. Super coool! What was it like living there? I've also wanted to visit. Exploring different dialects of Spanish is so fascinating to me". . . Notice how this orientation is very different and allows space for growth and expansion.

I'm not referring to "advantages" and "disadvantages". That is an intellectual framework. Such frameworks have value, yet it's easy to become contracted within them. Living in a multicultural city is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a much deeper level of immersion. More like living in an impoverished village in Honduras for a year. You would likely get direct experience and deeper understanding. As well, some people have predispositions. For example, some people have predispositions to intellectualizing and analyzing. It's just there predispositions and personality. Yet they will have a much harder time understanding that which is nonverbal and post-logical. Consider the quote "Most people considering integral ideas have also had enough of it". This is a highly contracted statement - with resistance, attachment and identification. Yet it is very difficult to see when a person is immersed within that contraction. This is part of having a human brain and mind - I've experienced it as well. There are aspects of Green you are not seeing, have not realized, have not integrated and have not embodied. You can stay within your realm or expand. It's up to you. I'm not saying one is better than the other. It's like being in room 227 in a Grand Hotel. If you want to stay within room 227 and explore that room - great. Go for it. Yet there are many other rooms you are not aware of. There is value in exploring room 227 and there is value in leaving 227 and exploring other rooms. There is a distinction between "considering" integral ideas through logical thought stories and actually experiencing, being and embodying. The map is not the territory.

It's easy to become contracted within intellectual constructs. These can be very helpful in building frameworks, yet they are very limited. A major part of evolving from Orange to Green and into Tier2 does not come through theory and logic. It comes through practice, observation, direct experience, awakening and embodiment. For example, we can spend all day everyday intellectualizing about Green, yet that aint actual Green. There are deeper levels of understanding that do not come through through theorizing (although theory can also be helpful). One can theorize about Green and not realize they are contracted within theory. For example, I did a lot of conceptualization about marginalized and ostracized groups. I did a lot of conceptualization about objectivism and relativism. A lot of conceptualization of stages. This is just one form of understanding and imo, it is a relatively shallow form. Understanding through direct experience is much much deeper. For example, rather than sit around conceptualizing about marginalized/ostracized groups, I moved to central america and actually lived within poverty-stricken marginalized groups. I volunteered in a psychiatric hospital and spent a lot of time with people with various mental illnesses that have been marginalized/ostracized. I dated a black woman and directly experienced racism and my privilege. This direct experience understanding cannot be attained through logic and intellectualizing. It is only attained through direct experience. This direct experience, integrated with theory, allows for embodiment - which is a much deeper level of understanding than theory alone. Knowing is a relative term and it's very easy for the mind to get lulled into thinking a particular relative knowing is actual knowing, objective knowing or absolute knowing. There are many realms and degrees of "knowing". For example, someone may have a lot of factual knowledge, yet very little direct experience knowledge and embodied knowledge. The conflation between relative, objective and absolute is like a fog machine and makes it difficult to evolve/progress. As well, there is often personal attachment/identification which also hinders progress. For example, the statement "I know what green is" is a highly limited and contracted state. It doesn't allow space for expansion. One of the most important realizations is how little we know. If we consider the the infinite amount of what can be known, we can realize we no virtually nothing. We could spend our entire life time studying a pencil and after 60 years of dedicated research, barely scratch the surface. Each of us knows 0.00000000 (add 1 trillion zeros) of infinite knowledge. This rounds off the zero. Yet the mind often personalizes knowledge and becomes attached/identified with it. It is like a person holds a single grain of sand in their hand and becomes mesmerized such that they believe that grain is the beach. Realizing this is very liberating and allows space for unlimited exploration.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I think which states of mind are most conducive to spiritual insights and realizations is a really interesting area. Ime, a busy distressed mind is not optimal for insights/realizations to appear. I find anything that can relax the mind and body is helpful. Meditation, yoga, time in nature etc. It allows space of insights/realizations to appear. For me, the "space" is more important than "joy". Joy can be an expression of what arises in the space, yet for me joy isn't the key - it is the empty space. Yet, a happy mind-body is generally a better mindset for insight/awakening than an unhappy mindset. Yet I wouldn't say it's the joy itself, I would say it's more about attachment/identification, desire and distraction. When my mind body is unhappy, there is usually thought stories occurring in my mind and desire to change Now. For example, if the mind is worrying about making money there can be insecurities and desire to change one's state. We don't like being Now and want a better now in which we feel good. In a joyful mind-body there much less desire to change Now. This makes it easier to be Now, since we are not seeking a better state. We are happy with Now. Yet this is still within a pleasure/pain dynamic. As soon as the thought/desire to make the happy state stable and permanent - desire arises and a pleasure vs. pain duality appears. We may seek the joyful state and become motivated to stablize the joyful state. We may start chasing joyful states. Relative joy distracts from unconditional joy. For example, last year I was in an isolated area of Belize that was paradise. After a week, my mind and body was relaxed and joyful to levels I didn't even know exist. One day I was floating in the ocean and everything was perfect, I was in joyful bliss. No worries, no distractions, no personal stories, no me. Various insights and realizations appeared. There was no time. . . Then, there was a thought about how joyful this was. As soon as joy appeared, non-joy appeared. If I am joyful, then I am not unjoyful. This appearance completely change the energetics. There were know thought like "What if I become unjoyful again? I don't want that. I want this joy to be stable. What if I return home to work and become unjoyful? How can I make this joy stable?". Then appearances of desire and thought stories. There is a mixture of joy and unjoy. For relative joy to exist, it must contrast itself to nonjoy? How can we tell if we are joyful? We must contrast this to nonjoyful. . . This can be beneficial at the personal/human level, yet relative happiness is a distraction and resistance to unconditional / absolute happiness. Unconditional/Absolute happiness is not dependent on conditions. It is impossible to be unhappy because there is Happiness in all conditions. There is unconditional happiness during meditation, while cooking, while running away from a pit bull, while having sex, while worrying about work, while being angry etc. . . . Ime, relative happiness can be important at the personal/human level - relative joy/happiness is healthy to the mind and body. Yet I need to be careful, because relative happiness can be alluring, mesmerizing and captivating. It can distract from unconditional/absolute happiness.

Sourcing is against forum guidelines

Yea, the work isn't easy. Just my take. I'd probably let go of the judgement whether the feelings are "wrong" or "foolish" and try to simply observe. If you don't like rap music, you don't like rap music. You don't need to try and force yourself to like rap music to be a better person. It seems like you don't like how you are feeling and perceiving. You can't change street people, they are the perfect them. If there was a movie of your life, who better to play the street people in the movie than the actual street people? They are the perfect street people characters, just how they are. However, you can change your perception and how you relate to street people, such that it doesn't bother you anymore. You may be satisfied with that. You might not be bothered anymore and it is a non-issue in your life. Or you could go more advanced such that you feel love for street people. . . I think Leo's first video on "What is Love" covers this well.

Regarding your description of "street culture", it seems like you are upset because: You then ask: Deconstruct the matter. You say you feel hatred toward them because of personal reasons: it feels unpleasant to you and you feel threatened. You can look at those feelings. There is no need to label them as "wrong" or "bad". They are just feelings within you. What are these sensations like? Is it a sharp pain? Where is the feeling? In your chest? Your gut? . . . Why are those feelings arising in you? What is it about you that you are perceiving the world in this manner? As well, observe the thought story. How often do you have thought stories about this? When you engage with this rage thought stories, what happens to your body? Does the discomfort increase?. . . What are you doing that may increase the intensity of perception? Do you think about it a lot? To you vent about it on forums? Do you watch YT videos about it? Do you talk a lot about it? Do you visit parts of the city that can amplify these thoughts and feelings?. . . Once you deconstruct this at your personal level, you can expand. . . You can start to learn about the lives and the struggles of "street people". You can start to learn about their suffering and why the act the way they do. You can start to develop compassion, empathy and love for them. Perhaps you will become an advocate and start a non-profit organization to help street people to live more fulfilling lives.

I didn't intend to suggest "contracted and trapped" = "unfulfilling lives while do nothing for humanity". Yet I can see how the term "trapped" has a negative connotation. Simply saying "contraction" is better. Someone could be contracted while living a fulfilling life and doing great things. Yet I would also say there is a correlation between attachment/identification to duality and personal turmoil and distress.

Yes. . . And this assumes that something continues existing when someone is not looking at it. Two sides of the same coin. . . The reason the above meme is helpful is because the vast majority of minds are immersed into the duality side that something continues existing when someone is not looking at it. Why point to this side of the coin? Everyone can already see this side. The problem is they are contracted and trapped into this side. . . Thus it seems more helpful to point and say "Look! The other side of the coin!" This is super common in spiritual teachings. For example, we don't need to tell people "You were born". They already know this and are trapped within this side of the duality. The freedom comes by pointing to "You were never born". . .

I wouldn’t make that assumption. You are seeing this from the male perspective and unaware of female conditioning and development. I spent a summer living in Cusco Peru. Everyday, people we come up to me to ask me a question or tell me something. Once they had my engagement, they would try to sell me something or ask me for something. They were dressed like typical locals. Some were obvious and carried stuff like pamphlets. Others were subtle. They would start off with something simple like “Isn’t the weather nice today?” to get attention and engagement. At first, they seemed genuine and I would engage to be friendly, then I’d realize I got fooled. Yet after about two weeks, I became in tune with it. Even the most subtle peddlers had a particular vibe, a type of look, energy or posture. I could now pick up on it quickly. I could tell a peddler from a regular person as soon as they looked at me, before they even said anything. And this is in only two weeks. The young attractive women you approach deal with multiple male peddlers everyday for years. If you think you are some kind of cloaked male player that women can’t pick up on, you are in your own reality bubble. They can detect it and know you are an approacher of women.

Awesome movie. “Lucy” is code for LSD ?

@Anna1 I’d imagine that can be tricky to work through. On the one hand, there can be real psychological consequences from abuse that may need to be worked through. On the other hand, there can be a new layer of victim identity that forms that can become toxic will need to get worked through as well. It seems like a fine line to work through impacts of abuse without falling into victim mentality.

Avoiding them seems pretty strict-forward - just don’t engage. Walk on the other side of the street if needed. Hare Krishnas are not aggressive at all. It’s not like they will come to your home and stalk you. Iteracting with them is a different dynamic. There are Hare Krishnas that swing by my area occasionally and are visible on a University campus when the weather is nice. Although they probably have some unhealthy aspects, there is an energy I like. They often have beautiful clothing and I like the music and dancing. Sometimes I’ll sit under a nearby tree and just watch and listen. Sometimes a leader will walk up to me and engage. They seem caring and nice - yet there is an underlying intention to recruit. I may converse a bit out of curiosity - yet I’m careful to not debate or give the impression my interested In joining. I may ask about if they travel around a lot and what there life is like. They will often talk about their beliefs and I may ask a couple questions out of curiosity. Yet after a while, they pick up on a vibe that I’ve been to a few rodeos and ask “what do you believe?”. I usually say “Nothing” and let there be silence. I don’t need to convince me or them of anything. There is usually an energy shift with a little groundlessness and they re-engage with their beliefs with a little more urgency to convince me (now themselves). I may start asking questions that deconstruct their framework, which throws them off because I’m not taking the position of another religion or a position of science. I’m just deconstructing to Nothing. At this point, they usually think I’m an oddball they can’t make sense of and give up. They aren’t interested in introspecting their beliefs and they realize I’m not recruitment material.

@Anna1 Adding in abuse changes the dynamic for me. Maybe because I empathize more easily with the abused than abusers. . . .I volunteered in a psychiatric ward and most of the women there had gone through serious abuse - mental and physical violence. The energy was very different. They weren’t playing a victim. They had none of the traits listed above. They were so beaten down they seemed numb. The power and abuse dynamic was heavily stacked against them. Their wounds were fresh and many didn’t want to say anything - or were unable to say anything. It was like there wasn’t any desire or fight in them to play a victim. Perhaps if they got a little bit of distance and stability aspects of victim mentality would appear, yet I didn’t sense any in the hospital. I’m not quite sure how to categorize it. Could there be *real* victims that don’t play being a victim? @Preety_India Your old man and my old man should get together and go bowling. - The Breakfast Club

Freedom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose - Janis Joplin

For a long time, I thought playing the victim was when someone acted like a helpless victim for attention and to avoid responsibility. I suppose that is one expression. Yet I've realized victim mentality can also be used very aggressively to gain a dominant position. For example, narcissists use victim mentality as a weapon. It's not always a "poor me, nobody loves me". It can be like a knife. For example, I dated a narcissist and she would often twist situations such that I was at fault. It's not always to get sympathy or avoid responsibility. For example, one time her co-worker was having a birthday event and my ex and I thought we should attend. She was like: "it's a chill event - I don't know her that well and don't like her much. But I should go for a little while since she is a co-worker. Let's stay for an hour and then we do our own thing".. . . So the event was an hour drive away. I do my best to get out of work early and get through traffic. I show up 10-15min. late and she is irate. She knows this is a way to get control in this setting. "How dare you show up late". . . (she then gaslights to leverage the victim mentality). . . "You knew how much this event meant to me and you show up late." (gaslight). "How do you think this makes me feel? I'm mortified. You are so disrespectful to me. My friends asked if we broke up (a lie). And now they see how disrespectful you are to me. This is so embarrassing and hurtful to be disrespected like this". . . This sounds outrageously sick, yet a skilled narcissist starts slow early in the relationship, draws the other person in and slowly tightens the clamp. . . This would trigger my empathy and desire to avoid conflict. I might feel bad that she is upset, try to move on and not make it a big deal out of it. . . Yet a narcissist will want the other person to acknowledge their victim role they have created. . . She would keep pushing until I said something like "Ok, you're right. I should have gotten here on time. Sorry about that. Let's not let it ruin our night. Let's have fun tonight". . . Then they have leverage to get stuff in the future. And they might embellish the story. For example, a week later I catch her sexting with an ex and ask her what's going on . . . She responds: "Well, last week you hurt me by coming a half hour late to my best friends birthday party. People have been talking about that at work and it's been so embarrassing. You haven't even apologized. I don't even know if I'm still your gf. You are probably going on other dates. That's the real reason you were late. You were on another date! Admit it". . . Here she scores a Narcissist Hat Trick: 1. She avoids taking personal responsibility (she is cheating on me), 2. she plays the victim and 3. she goes on offense and accuses me of being the one who is cheating. . . Victimization can be used as a knife. But wait, the dynamic can expand. . . Can I play the victim too? You betcha . . . I too can use victimization to avoid taking personal responsibility and to seek attention/validation. . . I could have gone to a friend and said. . . "I'm such a nice guy and she doesn't appreciate me. . . After all I've done for her, she treats me like this.". . . . My friend may respond: "You are such a genuine good guy. You deserve so much better. I wish you could find someone who deserves you". . . (Awww, shucks. . . ). But wait, the dynamic can expand even more. . . Can I be playing the victim right now?. . . You betcha. . .. I could be. . . Playing victim and self delusion is such a tricky thing. . .

Nice one.

I grew up with Atari 2600.

I like that one. I've noticed if I stare at something ling enough and go "blank" my pre-conceived perception of form goes can shift forms. For example, I'll be lying under a tree staring at the fluttering leaves. Then they aren't leaves anymore. If I catch myself, my brain will reset and I see them as leaves again. Yet if I let go, the form changes and takes new forms. They might be like dancing entities or aural static. . . I don't know if it is a normal thing for brains or if it's HPPD, yet it's kinda cool. . . I have a friend who can see auras and she says she needs to relax and allow them to appear and if she directly acknowledges it, her brain resets and it disappears. She told me I'm close and I can learn how to do it.

That has been my experience. Appearances still appear - boredom, discontent, hunger, fatigue, pain, grouchy etc. . . I like the term "ongoing purification". I usually use the term "clear". Yet it's the same idea. . . . I would add that what resonates as "spiritual practices" can change. I used to formally meditate in a meditation room with statues, incense, spiritual wall hangings and statues, a mediation bell etc. Yet this now often feels like I am trying to manipulate the environment to reach some state. Often, it doesn't feel genuine or natural. I often "meditate" just by staring. I may sit on my couch and just stare at the wall for a half hour. Not in a "zoned out" kind of way. In a state of being Now kind of way. Other times I go in nature. I may sit and stare for a while or just stroll around - just being. I've notice this as well. It is easier to see in others. Then I started realizing my own biases.

I don't mean to encourage anyone to take heroic doses. I did it accidentally with a dosing error. Ime, breakthrough doses is a better target. If I go to high, I blackout. @Consilience Breakthrough doses are one approach. Another approach is tripping consecutive days until you can't handle anymore. I took it to the point that I could no longer tell what a breakthrough was - or if I was even tripping or not.

@Consilience Thanks for sharing your experience and insights with psychedelics. What you wrote got me reflecting about my experience with psychedelics. You bring up the ideas of utility and embodiment. In particular, this quote struck me: "And in my experience, these trips are only as useful as the work I put in while sober. If I dont take action to embody via mediation, yoga, sober contemplation, journalling, self actualizing without drugs, they feel pretty useless. Psychedelics dont help build my focus, calm my mind, build my equanimity, permanently increase awareness, or make me capable of facing hours upon hours of boredom." I see this perspective a lot. That psychedelics are a temporary altered experience we can use as a tool to enrich our real sober life. I totally get that from the personal/human perspective. Yet for me, I think my first trip was so overwhelming, it destroyed this framework. . . . I made a major dosing error my first trip. I intended to take 20ug of 4-Aco-Dmt, yet took about 120ug (which is about 600-700ug of LSD). One awakening that manifested is real-ness. That trip was 100% real. It is as real as me typing on my computer right now. Not real in the sense of reflecting "wow, that trip really seemed real.". Rather. . . real real. As if there are two worlds and neither is more real than the other. Or that there is one world in which I can no longer distinguish between "real" and "unreal". For me, there is not a temporary altered psychedelic state and an ongoing normal sober state. That distinction got obliterated my first trip and it has been permanently embodied without any integration. . . I often hear people talk about psychedelics as an altered reality in which they temporarily enter to grab some insights and then return to a normal reality and try to use the insights to enrich their sober life. It seems weird to me, because it is assuming "sober" is more real or has more relevance than "non-sober". It seems odd to me. It's like trying to take aspects of a dream I had on Tuesday to enrich another dream I have on Thursday. I suppose that's kinda cool in a way, yet neither dream is more real or has more relevance. It would be the same as saying I want to enter a temporary altered sober state with the intention of getting insights that can enrich my real normal psychedelic life. "How can insights from a sober trip be permanently embodied in my psychedelic life?". This gets me thinking about your point about long-term embodiment. . . I often hear people tell newbies to start off with small doses and work their way up. This is a gentle approach that can reduce risks and trauma. Yet I also question whether it is the most effective approach toward trans-personal awakening. An incremental approach may allow the mind and body to stay within a grounded sober reality. This grounding gets shaken up a bit during temporary trips, yet the person gets re-grounded in sobriety. This can be helpful for the mind and body to stay stable as a person. Yet, I wonder if this gradual approach can allow the mind to acclimate and build resistance to long-term embodiment. Such that the mind adapts to psychedelics and re-calibrates such that there is a "sober" that remains "normal". . . For me, the accidental heroic dose was like a 9.5 earthquake that decimated the ground. And that ground has never looked "normal" again. I was never able to re-create normalcy of sobriety or perceive psychedelics as an altered state. Last week I was with a devote buddhist seeking enlightenment. I started getting into deconstruction to absolute Nothing. There was really strong resonance and she was fully engaged as if she was about to have a major awakening. . . . She had a slight shift in energy and asked "Wait a minute. . . was this a real experience or did it happen on that Meo stuff?". . . I chuckled. It was like she asked "Wait a minute. . . did this experience happen on that Tuesday stuff?". . . Normies can be comical creatures. . . I'd love to start a YT channel for normies similar to the channels that have cute cats doing silly things. . . Video clips of normies saying silly things like "Was it real or was it 5-meo?".