Forestluv

On the comedown of a 5-meo trip, I saw images of scientists in a sandbox trying to figure out how the scoops, shovels and buckets worked. Yes, it looked like a joke.

@onacloudynight I won't judge whether anyone's relative experience qualifies as insanity. . . Yet it seems that you have a contextualization of insanity that is different than mine. That is fine, yet we can't communicate well on the topic because we are on different frequencies. @ttom A can of worms got opened up!!

@Forrest Adkins Where do you think intelligence comes from?

This is a theoretical abstraction in your mind. You don't have direct experience or empathic understanding. Your empathic abilities are not strong enough to do it indirectly, so you would need to actually go through the insanity and torture yourself. . . Yet I would never advise someone to do this, since it is very traumatizing to the mind and body. To me, intellectualizing this is a form of mental masturbation with little benefit. The deeper understanding is through direct experience. Yet it is not the type of direct experience someone volunteers for. It just happens.

For a lot of people, this type of transcendence can be like losing one's mind. It can feel groundless and scary. Things like no-self and no free will, can be intriguing and engaging to discuss on internet forums. Yet the actual direct experience can be scary. This can take various forms and have various degrees of intensity. For some people it can be relatively intense, for others not so much. For some, it seems more like depression or existential angst. Similar to what you say, I've had moments that felt like I was losing my mind and I let go and it became ok. There can be other dynamics as well. I'm fine talking about it with people that are working through insanity because they are in it. I volunteered in a psychiatric hospital for years. I would sit and talk with patients. Actually, I mostly listened to them without any judgement. Just with acceptance and love. . . Yet discussions that are speculative are counter-productive. People create all sorts of stories in their heads. "Oh my gosh!! I thought I was doing ok on the spiritual path, yet I didn't know about the demons I read about on a forum that I will need to face. This is awful, I don't know if I can handle it". Human minds will make up all sorts of stories. They reach for the blissful stories and push away the scary stories. . . There is no good in planting a scary story seed in someones mind. I wouldn't worry about a deeper form of scary that may arise. That creates LOA energy. If it does, it does. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Whatever appears, appears.

Reminds me of the time I was looking for my keys. I search all over and couldn't find them. I started getting frustrated and thought maybe my gf hid them for some reason. The thought story intensified and I got really frustrated. Until I realized they were in my jacket pocket the whole time. It was wearing a ski jacket that had a couple oddly-placed pockets. The keys were in an odd pocket I never use. Then I asked, “who put my keys in the odd pocket? Could I have put them there? But that wouldn't make any sense. Why would I hide the keys from myself?” . . .

The term "insane" is used in various contexts. For example, insane can mean eccentric, abnormal, nonconformist or weird. Insanity might be a form of genius or crazy good. "Dude, you just hit a hole-in-one!!! That shot was insane!!". . . Or insanity is "doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results". The OP is using the term "insanity" in a relatively benign context. There is another form of psychotic insanity that is much much more intense and horrifying. There are various forms and it's really hard to describe. If someone does enough psychedelics, they are likely to enter insanity zones. . . . I just wrote here about one of mine, yet I think it's best I delete it. It depends on context. In terms of an eccentric, weird or crazy kind of insanity, that is a reasonable question. Yet it still assumes an element of sanity. There are forms of psychotic insanity that are tortuous. It would be like asking "Why not just enjoy the torture no matter how extreme it is?".

This is a complex question. Keep in mind that I am only talking about the genetics here. This is just one piece of the puzzle. There are many variables at play. At a genetic level, we know that trauma induces epigenetic alterations. This is a simplified example. . . . The gene cortisol produces the hormone cortisol which causes stress and anxiety. At times we want the cortisol gene turned on at various levels. For example, if I am trying to be productive a little bit of cortisol is a good thing to keep me going. If I am lost in the woods with bears, high levels of cortisol can be a good thing to help me survive. . . When someone goes through trauma, genes like cortisol can get misregulated. Imagine a normal level of everyday cortisol is 2/10. A person with PTSD might be at a 5/10. They have chronically higher levels of cortisol and are more vulnerable to spiking up higher to a 9/10. The trauma induced an epigenetic alteration. The quality of the cortisol didn't change, the quantity of it changed. This is due, in part, through methylation. Small methyl (-CH3) groups are placed on regulatory regions of genes that alter the quantity of the product. Things like neglect/abuse/trauma tend to hyper-methylate regions throughout the genome. This causes widespread alterations in the quantity of gene expression. This altered methylation pattern can exist through one's lifetime and passed on to children. So your question is essentially: Can purifying yourself correct the altered methylation patterns? Imo, this is a really important question in terms of neuroscience and therapy. It is a cutting edge question and we just don't know. I would love to see more research go into this area. For example, what is the effect of psychedelic therapy on these methylation patterns? What about yoga? Meditation? Walks in nature? Improved diet? Shamanic breathing? Therapy? Acupuncture . . We know very little. We do know that practices like yoga and meditation alter brain activity that persists. For example, in one study non-meditators practiced meditation for a few months. The participants had increased brain mass/activity in a region of the brain associated with empathy and reduced mass/activity in a region of the brain associated with fear. . . However there haven't yet been studies looking at specific gene methylation patterns. I wish these studies could occur, yet they can be difficult to do and it's hard to get funding. Yet early studies are promising. For example war veterans with PTSD that showed improvement with EMDR therapy showed reversal of hyper-methylation patterns in a few key areas, suggesting reversal is possible. . . Personally, I think we are just scratching the surface. I think various types of spiritual practices such as yoga and meditation can correct hyper-methylation. As well, researchers are now designing drugs to correct hyper-methylation patterns. We currently have a crude map. We will learn better how to do it. . . Decades in the future, we will have much higher resolution maps and they will be personalized. For example, a war veteran with PTSD would have their own unique profile. Perhaps his profile includes hypermethylation patterns that can be relieved through EMDR combined with a type of medicine. Another person that has childhood PTSD may have a different profile and might respond better to Reiki and a different med. Another person with another profile might respond better to a support dog and meditation. Another person with psychedelic therapy. We just don't have high resolution maps at this point. I also want to stress again that this is just one variable of many. People tend to get tunnel-vision and think "So that's my problem, I'm screwed up epigenetically from my trauma. Now I am programmed this way". This is a major misinterpretation and can make the person's condition worse. . . It would be like a Chinese person embarking on a trip through Europe and thinking "Ahh, I just need to learn German and then I'll be able to travel through Europe without a problem". Learning German is great and would be helpful, yet it is just one component of being able to travel through Europe successfully.

Selective breeding and artificial selection is traditional Mendelian genetics that involve gene sequences. Sadhguru is also pointing beyond that to epigenetics. There are important mechanistic differences between Mendelian inheritance and epigenetic inheritance. . . The experiments Sadhguru talked about with how mice inherited a fear to cherry blossom smell is not selective breeding or artificial selection. The parent mice that received electric shocks learned to fear to cherry blossom smell. They passed this on to their offspring - not through genetics or teaching their offspring - They passed on the fear through epigenetic modification of chromosomal structure - which is a mechanism distinct from selective breeding and artificial selection. Epigenetics is one form of "teaching" and "memory". The parent mice learned to fear the chemical acetophenone (the cherry blossom smell) due to electric shocks. The parents responded by altering their gene expression to detect and fear the smell of acetophenone. For example, they produced more M71 receptors to detect very low levels of acetophenone so they can avoid it. They also epigenetically altered the chromosomal structure in their sperm and eggs - to transmit this "memory" to their offspring and "teach" them to avoid acetophenone. There were no alterations in gene sequence, no selective breeding or artificial selection. . . . The parents learned to fear acetophenone and passed this fear on to the offspring epigenetically. The epigenetically altered sperm and egg produced offspring mice with brains constructed to fear and avoid the smell of acetophenone. For example, the offspring upregulated the expression of the M71 gene. . . If mice could think they might think "I have no idea why I'm afraid of cherry blossoms. Maybe I was terrorized by a cherry blossom in a previous life. Haha.". . . Epigenetics is still relatively new, yet the fundamentals are mainstream now. It should be taught as standard genetics in high school and university curriculum. I only addressed a portion of what Sadhguru talked about - the part relative to epigenetics. He was speaking in a much broader context that included much more than epigenetics.

Below is a peer-reviewed scientific article in a high level journal PNAS. It shows a significant correlation between childhood neglect/abuse/trauma and widespread epigenetic alterations that persist well after the initial trauma. https://www.pnas.org/content/110/20/8302 The below paper is a peer-reviewed summary of scientific evidence that shows an enduring epigenetic effect of trauma exposure that is passed to offspring transgenerationally via epigenetic inheritance. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5977074/pdf/brainsci-08-00083.pdf

I am a University professor of genetics. This is more nuanced than what you are aware of. The scientific link is through epigenetics, which is now mainstream science. Yet we are still in the early stages. Part of what Sadhguru is pointing to is epigenetics. He has a knowing of the territory, yet scientists have yet not drawn the maps of this territory yet. Sadhguru is not a trained scientist, so he is explaining it a bit sloppy from a scientist's perspective. Yet don't let that fool you. From a scientific approach, we are building maps of this territory - yet we are in the very early stages. From a geneticist's perspective, there is some truth about transferring learned abilities, fears and traits. Yet the map is still crude. We are currently constructing higher resolution maps. This gets into Lamarckian evolution and epigenetics. Lamarck hypothesized that physical traits acquired over one's lifetime can be passed onto their offspring. For example, if someone lifts weights and develops large muscles they can pass that on to their offspring. However, once chromosomal and molecular genetics came of age in the early to mid 1900s, Lamarck's theory was considered disproven. It was clear that DNA sequences was the source of genetic information inherited. The traits a person attain during their lifetime will not affect the genetic sequence in their gametes (sperm and eggs), thus the acquired traits will not be passed on to offspring. . . . Buuut wait, there's more. . . We know understand that the above ideology is only partially and there is more to the story. A new exciting area of biology is epigenetics and it will integrate a lot of phenomena. For example, scientists can now detect epigenetic changes due to one's life history - many of these changes are inheritable. For example, children that undergo abuse and PTSD have widespread epigenetic alterations. These are not changes in gene sequences, these are changes in chromosomal structure that alter the expression of genes. For example, children that are exposed to neglect/abuse/trauma have widespread epigenetic changes and gene expression alterations in the hippocampus - the hippocampus stores memories and communicates with the anterior pituitary gland - which releases hormones, including stress hormones. Childhood neglect/abuse/trauma alters gene expression in the hippocampus affecting memories and stress hormone release. For example, the gene NGF1A normally downregulates the stress hormone cortisol. Children with neglect/abuse/trauma commonly have epigenetic changes that reduce NGF1A activity, thereby allowing higher levels of cortisol and stress. This happens to hundreds of genes throughout the genome. . . One may think "Wait a minute. . . The stress and anxiety could be good to help the person deal with the situation". Yes. . . but, these changes persist - not for a few days or weeks - for years and decades. Perhaps the rest of the child's life. And importantly, some of these epigenetic changes are inheritable. To integrate social dynamics, karma and genetics. . . Right now in the U.S. there are children being separated from their parents and kept in cages. This is causing widespread epigenetic changes in their body. Their chromosomal structure is being altered through methylation, which affects the gene expression profile of many genes, including genes in their hippocampus and pituitary glands. Many of these epicgenetic changes will persist and will be associated with neuroses and anxiety disorders - well after the trauma stops. Likely the rest of their lives. AND some of these epigenetic changes will be inherited by their offspring. . . . This is an aspect of social karma. A portion of the social karma of the U.S. and central america is being epigenetically transmitted to these children in cages and will then be transmitted to their children and grandchildren - even though these future generations were not directly exposed to the cage trauma. The future generations may not even be aware of it. Their parents may never even tell them. The future generations now carry a portion of the karmic load epigenetically. Generations later, someone may have an anxiety disorder and deja-vu and get a sense that they went through trauma in a previous life. They did and they are carrying that epigenetically. . . And this is not limited to humans and trauma. . . we are learning all sorts of environmental input and experience is stored epigenetically and passed on to subsequent generations as a type of "memory". To me, this is one of the most exciting areas of science because it can integrate biology, psychology, neuroscience, sociology, spirituality and metaphysics. And I love a good integration. There is no separate individual person that is "born". Life does not start when sperm meets egg. Life is an integrated continuous process. You were never "born". This isn't pseudo-science. It is cutting edge science. Last week I went to a presentation on epigenetic inheritance. Afterwards, I asked the scientist "What is memory? What is intelligence?". He shrugged his shoulders, smiled and said "I'm not really sure anymore". . . It's all getting re-contextualized through the evolution and it's beautiful.

I've tried phenibut and ime, it's a good chemical for social anxiety. I don't think it has any Self Actualizing benefits like psychedelics or modafinil. As well, phenibut is very addictive with tolerance issues. I would advise against using it recreationally and very careful trying to use it therapeutically. Also, legality of phenibut varies. It is a controlled substance in Australia. In the U.S. the FDA states phenibut has no medicinal or dietary value and products claiming so are misbranded. Yet it is technically legal to buy online. I've also used phenibut to reduce anxiety associated with psychedelics such as LSD. Ime, the effects are minor and it could be mostly placebo effect. . . . Be mindful of mixing any type of sedative with a psychedelic trip. It cab alter one's physiology and energetics affecting the trip. Some people may find it helpful, others may find it unhelpful. It's not as simple as "take some phenibut/benzo before a trip and no more anxiety!". . . It's more complex than that imo.

The importance of social skills varies among jobs. For a social worker, it's very important - that's what they do all day. Yet a chemist could spend most of their day in the laboratory and minimize their social interactions (although they would still need a basic skill level). As well, in social work settings people prefer to work with people they like and get along with. The degree can get you an interview or even a job, yet success and satisfaction partially depends on social fit. At my job, we are currently interviewing three candidates. Each candidate is qualified and had an interview this week. At this stage, I'd say who we hire is about 50% personality and social fit. Noone wants to work with someone who is a jackass. One of the candidates came across as very ingenuine and overly self motivated. I think they could be productive independently, yet the job also involves working in groups at times and I don't see them as a team player. I've worked with several people on the autism spectrum and I try to adapt my perception, rather than expecting them to accommodate me. For example, the autistics I've worked with do not resonate with surface-level fake pleasantries like "Hi Jim. What a nice tie you have on today. Isn't the weather nice today?". These are just surface-level pleasantries that are common in transient social interactions - for example around the coffee maker. Similar to a restaurant server. Servers are good at giving surface level pleasantries to those they serve on. It is a type of social skill that some people have, yet I've never met someone on the autism spectrum with this skill - they seem to be the opposite. As well, the people with autism I've met generally aren't in tune with certain aspects of communication. For example, tone of voice, facial expressions and sarcasm. They are generally more oriented toward "just saying how it is" through words. For example, if I told my autistic co-worker that I had an ok weekend, yet used a tone of voice and facial expression with distress, she wouldn't pick up on that and say "It doesn't sound like the weekend was ok. Did something bad happen you would like to talk about". Rather, she would say "My weekend was ok too. See ya later". She just doesn't pick up on these subtle games people play when the words say one thing but the meaning is different. I would literally need to tell her "My weekend kinda sucked. Can I tell you about it for a minute?". I would consider what social atmosphere you would work best in. Personally, I'm introverted and social gatherings suck the energy out of me. So I chose a career that did not involve a lot of social interactions. For example, I would suck as a party host.

Although we could consider this activity a "stream of consciousness", the issue is a bit outside the area of Self Actualization.

For sure. Having shared commonalities can help inter-relate and allowing avenues for human connection and space for insights. Yet one can also become too contracted. For example, during my path there were some "paranormal" stuff that appeared. I certainly wasn't going to share this with people at my work. They are all scientists and would see it as "woo woo". They couldn't relate. So I sought a sub-community that could relate. I found a few people on this forum that could relate and a few others online. So now, I have a mini-community that "gets it". I've found this helpful and I've learned alot, yet I don't contract myself into this sub-community. I participate in many sub-communities. For example, I also have a running sub-community that "gets it". I also have a jazz music sub-community that "gets jazz". Yet I don't contract my identity to "I am a paranormal", "I am a runner" or "I am a jazz aficionado". There is a transcendence of all those identities to the "I Am". Each of those identities come and go like waves. . . For me, it's not so much "killing" an identity - it is transcending identity such that the attachment to the identity dissolves.

I also find it helpful to create consistent habits in spirituality and personal development. I found an easy fix for this: I plan two hours each Sunday for spirituality/development. Leo's video is the top option, yet not the only option. I have two other spiritual/PD options ready. If Leo doesn't have a video or the topic doesn't resonate with me, I will go to the second option. This way, the consistency of the habit is maintained - yet is not dependent on Leo's video.

@GGG I would make a distinction between forced celibacy and voluntary celibacy. You seem to be referring to forced celibacy within religions. A religion might view sex as a mortal pleasure that is impure, sinful and unholy. Thus, a clergyman that is celibate may be viewed as more pure and holy. It can also be a way for a religion to exert control. For example, if we want to control the sex activities of the community, we can say that sex out of wedlock is immoral. Then we can point to the clergyman as an example and say "Look at this is a holy man of god that doesn't have sex". Those that are having casual sex can now be judged and shamed. At least that's how it worked in the Catholic church I grew up in. . .

I try to be careful with seeking desirable states. I've found that relaxing the mind and body can be helpful, yet it can also be used for avoidance of what I don't want to face. There are times when it is beneficial to sit in discomfort, anxiety and fear - without seeking relief or to change it. We may seek relief/avoidance by our external environment (changing scenary, doing an activity) or we can seek relief/avoidance internally through thought stories. . . There are times when the demon I feared most approached me and I just stood there in terror facing the demon. It didn't eat me and I was allowed exploration and release of the underlying fear/insecurity. Yet I've also found it beneficial at times to quiet the mind and allow space for easy, peaceful feelings.

Another way to look at it.. . Imagine your best friend was going through this. How would you lovingly help your friend?

It’s not a lack of response, it is the nature of the response. If I have a perspective I am attached to and I want to protect it, I will get into a defensive posture. I will want to debate. I will want others to prove I am wrong. I will want others to understand me. There will be an energy of conflict. An energy of who is right and who is wrong. This orientation will keep me in a contracted mindset and hinder my development. This is a very different orientation than when I am open and curious about the perspective of others. Here, I genuinely want to learn about their experience and pov. Yet this isn’t just in theory, it is also in direct experience. In the context of green, this means letting go of my own male-centered pov and learning about other POVs. For example, I volunteered in a psychiatric hospital that was predominantly women. I learned a lot about the experience and perspectives of marginalized/ostracized/stigmatized people. I didn’t enter with the attitude of “I know all this and I’m right”. I went in with a humble, curious mindset which allowed growth. Currently, I am serving on a diversity committee at my job. I am the only male on the committee. I am learning a lot from the womens’ experience and perspectives. When we have our meetings I’m not in a mindset that I understand everything and want them to understand me. I don’t talk over the women and “mansplain”. I don’t tell them how it is and that they need to re-listen to what I say 10 times for them to understand. When they question my POV, I don’t respond that they are disrespecting me and judging me. This mindset would prevent me from learning from others’ experience and POVs. It would also create inter-personal conflict/division and would prevent me from forming meaning human connections with mutual empathy and connection. This gets to the heart of green development. It goes way beyond intellectual thinking and argumentation. People have been reaching out to you, yet not to debate and argue with you. . .

Several people have been trying to reach out to you in this thread, yet you don’t seem open. If someone wants to stay within their paradigm, they will.

This is a common dynamic that keeps a mind contracted within their own pov. All the effort goes into trying to defend one’s own pov and trying to control a narrative. There is an unwillingness to let go of one’s own pov and resistance to learn and understand another pov. A common way for a mind to stay contracted is to say things like “you don’t understand my pov. Go back and read it 10 times until you understand it”. This is resistance to development. In the context of this thread, resistance to understanding a green pov on gender inequality. One aspect of green development is to begin to consider the experience and POV of other groups. Especially people in marginalize/oppressed/ostracized/stigmatized groups. In doing so, one can expand their awareness and understanding. This in turn can lead to empathy and desire fir a more inclusive and equal society.

Sure. It is the perspective of a dominant group wanting to maintain unequal power dynamics over a marginalized/oppressed group. There is an unwillingness to let go of one’s own self-centered perspective and unwillingness to consider, learn and understand the perspective of the marginalized/ostracized group. Notice how all your effort is being put into getting your point across and being understood. You have put no effort in trying to understand others’ pov. You have no desire or curiosity to learn and understand the other’s pov. As a result, you will have very little understanding of others’ point of view. You will keep dismissing it with phrases like “You don’t understand what I wrote. Go back and re-read it again”.

“As green, women should let men live the way they want to live unless there is some dire injustice upon them. Read this line 3 times, or you might misunderstand.” This is a great example of blue/orange resisting green. And it was spoken from a man to a women, which adds in three scoops of green cringe.

@captainamerica I would not do visualizations. That is abstract and will not ground you. I think it’s better to look at your hand or do reality checks (like touching your fingertip to your palm). Even something like dropping a pencil several times. This can help you realize the hallucinatory thought story and bring you back into Here and Now.