Forestluv

This is an old thread that has run it's course. Don't make a mockery of the work by turning threads into dick measuring contests.

You are describing a relative manifestation of love. There is nothing wrong with that. It is beautiful and true in a relative context. Yet it is not absolute Love. Absolute Love transcends species survival. Absolute Love Loves human extinction just like it Loves human thriving. It is an Unconditional Love. It is not an emotional type of relative love, yet it includes emotional relative love because Unconditional Love Loves everything Unconditionally. It's like you have a map of Paris and are asking "How is Paris not Europe?". . . To realize the answer, one would need to go meta on the Paris map. Yet you keep coming back to the contracted map and saying "Yea, but what about the Eiffel Tower? How is that not Europe?". . . I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm not saying Paris isn't Europe. I'm saying Paris is within Europe. One would need to let go of the Paris map to see that (yet there is nothing wrong with the Paris map - it has relative value. It is just contracted). Similarly, scientific models of the brain and love are within Love.

I recently had the priviledge to attend a presentation of Deej Savarese. He is a non-speaking autistic. As a child, he was rejected by his biological parents as being damaged. He went to a foster home in which he was abused, ostracized and stigmatized. Later in life, he was adopted by loving parents. He learned how to develop friendships. He became the first non-speaking autistic to graduate from a U.S. University. He is now a poet, philosopher and advocate for neuro-atypical people. At the beginning of the talk, I felt a lot of sympathy and compassion for him. He seemed like an inspiring person that overcame a lot of adversity. . . Yet as the presentation went on, my consciousness shifted. The presentation started off with Deej's poetry. It was amazing. Deej's consciousness is more oriented toward non-duality than duality. His poetry expressed nonduality in a way I've never heard a nonduality speaker explain it. Then they played prepared remarks from Deej in which he spoke of the interface of real, unreal and relative reality. Again, I've never heard it described like this and I realized he had something very special. Not in a "special person with a disability" kind of way. In a genius kind of way. What he was describing was just out of my reach. It was a nonverbal realm that Deej was trying to express verbally to us and I just couldn't quite access it. After the presentation, I went to the stage and stood by Deej. There was a deep connection I wanted to make with him, yet I didn't know how to put it into worlds. I stood there trying to speak a question, yet I couldn't. Now I was non-speaking. I got frustrated and wanted to cry because I couldn't do it. I knew I was close, to meeting him somewhere yet I couldn't do it. Then Deej gazed in my eyes and we went there. His skills where higher than mine and he brought me there. We gazed in each others eyes for a minute and were a somewhere that was beautiful love. Neuro-atypical people have certain skills that are unique. Unfortunately, cultures create a "Myth of Normal" in which those that appear different are labeled as "abnormal" and are ostracized/stigmatized. Yet more and more people are waking up. There are some low conscious people out there, yet there are also some people that are waking up and have a higher capacity to love. https://www.deejmovie.com/

Are you referring to a relative personal self love? Or a transcendent Self Love? . . . In the context of a relative personal self love, the scientific explanation you offer seems reasonable. Perhaps it may have practical value for a person. If it helps someone, super! Someone else may say that self love is about opening oneself to healing energetics and massage. In a relative context, that also may have value at the personal level. If it helps someone, super! There are also "trans-personal" states in which the orientation is not to meet self-centered desires, since the self has been transcended. This transcendent love is super as well. It's all Good.

Yes, it was dry powder. I had to drink some water to get it down. There was so much of it. I felt bloated and moderate discomfort for about a half hour. This reminds me of a interview I saw with Jerry Garcia - the guitarist for the Grateful Dead. Jerry was talking about some of his experiences with LSD and music. He was asked "What was it like tripping on LSD during a concert?". . . Jerry replied "Tripping during a concert is awful. . . because I'm not allowed to stop playing". . . I was like "omg, I totally get that".

"Spiritual Cultural Heritage" is also relative. I'm not disagreeing with you. You are pointing at an essence I am acknowledging. There is an essence of spiritual tradition - an essence of spiritual cultural heritage. If that resonates with someone, awesome. If it doesn't resonate with someone else, that's awesome to. In the future there may be purge-free synthetic 5-meo retreats that are super chill. No purging. No convulsions. No flopping around. Some people may resonate with that. Others may not resonate. They may think "This 5-meo synthetic retreat feels fake to me. There is no spiritual cultural heritage here". For such as person, super. They can find a traditional Ayahuasca retreat with spiritual cultural heritage. . . I would say there was spiritual cultural heritage at the Aya retreat I did in Peru. Yet for me, the purging just didn't resonate with me. For me, the spiritual cultural heritage was more about the beautiful ethereal music, the love, the collective energy, the herbs burned, eating fruit together after the ceremony, integrating lessons the next day and deep conversations with community members. The surrounding mountains. The mysticism of the Sacred Valley. A sense of timeless tradition we were all a part of. Yet for me, the purging just wasn't a big part of it. It was distracting. . . .Yet you have a different relationship with purging and have a different resonance with spiritual cultural heritage. That's totally fine. No two people are the same.

@Kiko Impermanence may or may not involve attachment. I participated in a meditation group for years and grew close to a lot of the members. One time during a walking meditation, I realized this is impermanent. This building, sangha, friends and teacher will be gone. There was an essence deep sorrow of impermanence, yet there wasn't attachment. My mind and body simply experienced the essence of deep sorrow within me and floating around the room. It was a mystical experience. Since then, the meditation group has dissolved and several members have passed away. . . There can also be impermanence with attachment. One time I was with my gf. The relationship was coming apart. We were having dinner one time and I realized that I was the one holding our relationship together. She just wasn't into it. During dinner, she said she wanted to switch from monogamy to open. I then realized this was the end. We just weren't on the same page and resonating anymore. Then impermanence entered. We had so many magical and loving experiences together and I could sense it's ending. There was realization this may be the last time I see her. There was a deep sorrow. Yet in this case, my mind and body wanted to hold on. It didn't want to let go. There was attachment. I tried to change her mind, which I couldn't. Then I agreed to try an open relationship - although my mind and body said not to. I was attached.

"Spiritual" is relative. You are defining "spiritual" as purging. It is spiritual if you create it as such. There is nothing wrong with that. Similarly, the snake pit people may say that the spirit entities only come when people are in terror getting bitten by snakes as they trip. In that relative context, that is what spiritual is. Some may want to preserve the snake pit tradition. If so, that's fine. There are lots of tribal ceremonies that involve extreme pain and suffering. Ime experience, I would not consider the purging spiritual - except for one spiritual insight I had. For me, Mother Aya was not associated with the vomiting and diarrhea. It was more like Mother Aya was taking me along a journey and then all of a sudden my digestion system blows up and I'm like "Oh shoot, Mother Aya. Sorry about this, yet I've got to use the toilet for a bit - can you hold on?". . . Of course, I wasn't thinking in those terms during the ceremonies, yet the purging was a distraction. . . Or it would be like hiking toward Machu Picchu and you find out the chocolate candy bar you just ate was actually a diuretic. This would be very distracting to the Machu Picchu experience. It would be a major bummer. . . Again, this is just my experience. Others may embrace the purging. If so, go for it!

I've taken dilaudid twice. Dilaudid is the strongest opiod and similar to heroine. Ime, dilaudid was a mystical experience of bliss (even in a hospital setting). Yet it is extremely addictive.

Of course. Training is just another term for "conditioning" or "programming". The human mind is "trained" since childhood. The mind's beliefs, interpretations, self construct are all "training". A major component of spirituality, personal development and therapy is to un-train the mind and re-train it.

I don't disagree with that. Imagine that are psychedelic retreat leaders and we have two options: 1) A pure psychedelic without an added purging agent and 2) A pure psychedelic with an added purging agent. I'm not saying #1 or #2 is necessarily better. If someone wants to do a traditional spiritual/medical cleansing process with purging, then do option #2 with the purging agent. Go for it. Vomit and have diarrhea - cleanse away! The point is that Ayahuasca is stuck with the vomiting chemical and does not have the option without it. From what I saw in the Ayahuasca retreat, my hunch is that shamans would likely appreciate the option of removing the purging agent. They may not admit this and old-school shamans may insist on using traditional Ayahuasca, yet my hunch is that if given the option, some shamans/leaders would start using the purge-free Ayahuasca at some ceremonies. Perhaps one ceremony per month. I think this would get more and more popular - such that most ceremonies would become purge-free. There would still be special "spiritual cleanse" ceremonies in which the purging agent isn't removed. Yet, I don't think this would be the popular ceremony. . . Ayahuasca ceremonies are absolutely beautiful, yet the purging is just not needed (except for special "spiritual cleanse" ceremonies. Yet I could see having special "spiritual cleanse" ceremonies with the purging agent. . . . The purging can be very stressful and painful to the body. I bet 98% of participants would choose a purge-free trip. It's just another way of looking at it. Imagine in an isolated area, a tribal ritual was to have people trip in a snake pit. This was the only type of tripping ceremony available. Tripping meant going through terror and suffering. Then one day, someone asks "What if we had psychedelic ceremonies without the snake pit? Perhaps we could play music and sit around a campfire and trip without getting devoured by snakes?". This would be a radical idea in the tribal tradition and would face resistance. Yet once they trip the snake-free ceremonies, there would be no going back. Yet they may still have occasional "terror and suffering cleanse" ceremonies with the snake pits. Perhaps that would become a "rite of passage" ceremony for teenage tribal members entering adulthood.

Sounds like an enlightened being with HPPD.

The hard part of mescaline cacti for me was the amount that I needed to ingest. It's hard to get down without water, yet if you add too much water - it expands and I felt bloated. Yet once I got it all down, there was moderate discomfort in my gut for about a half hour, then things settled down. The trip lasts a long time. There is a very gradual come-up and a very gradual come-down. Also, it wasn't possessive at all. It was like an all day affair in which I could "leave and take a break for a bit" if I wanted to - and then return to the mystical experience. It was always present, yet I never felt forced into it. . . .San Pedro is the only psychedelic I've done with that dynamic.

I did an Ayahuasca retreat in Peru and that is what the shaman told us before each ceremony. That the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea was an integral part of the process that helps one expel negative energy and move them toward healing and purification. This was the prevailing view of all long-term members of the community. Ime, the vast amount of insights and realizations had nothing to do with the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea. Mother Aya was communicating with me and the purging was a distraction. During the retreat I may have had 50 insights, realization and I would say only one was directly related to vomiting. The first ceremony took a huge physical toll on my body. There were two days between ceremonies and I barely recovered. I almost had to pull out of the second ceremony. As much as the shamans say this is an integral part of the spiritual journey, I am not convinced. For example, if they discovered tree bark that removed the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, I bet they would start adding in the tree bark while making the Aya brew. Not only is the purging physically stressful, it is a practical nightmare. The temple wrecked of vomit and diarrhea. The toilets area was gross. During the ceremonies, someone occasionally knocked over a vomit bucket. There were cleaning staff that obviously didn't enjoy cleaning up the mess. It was a very unpleasant part of the retreat and I think if coordinators could maintain the trippy part of Aya and remove the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, most would. In the future, there will be synthetic 5-meo retreats that involve awakenings without the nausea/vomiting/diarrhea. That's fine if it is a natural part of the awakening process. Yet psychedelics like Aya will induce nausea/vomiting/diarrhea regardless of any self disgust. One could have no disgust and be violently hurling. Imagine having a pure psychedelic that does not induce vomiting. Someone may take the psychedelic and naturally have disgust arise to which they vomit. That is a very different dynamic than a person taking the psychedelic and a second chemical that induces nausea and will make them vomit - regardless of whether or not disgust is present. The question is: why would someone take the extra vomit chemical? Why not just take the pure psychedelic?. . . I could see specific cases when someone has the intention of inducing vomiting to remove negativity. Yet this would be rare cases. As a general practice, adding in a vomiting chemical is counter-productive.

Traveling can be a great way to stretch one's comfort zone. For example, one could travel and live with another culture. In general, spending time with someone that has a very different life history and perspective than I do.

I haven't heard of David Deida. Thanks for the suggestion. Your ideas got me thinking about masculine and feminine energies. One thing I've been doing lately is to watch YT videos of two people exploring an area such as "the value of neural plasticity on therapy". I'll watch the dynamics between two women interacting, a man and woman interacting, and two men interacting. Rather than focusing what they are discussing, I'll focus on how they are discussing it. There are often different gender dynamics. For example, two women interacting are often very agreeable and supportive to one another, yet sometimes have a subtle way of trying to control/steer the narrative. Men are often more debate oriented. They are often more contrarian in conversation. Each of the dynamics seem to have downsides when in excess. For example, I was watching a video of two women discussing neural plasticity and they were so agreeable with each other that the discussion seemed watered-down. Since they were so agreeable, they were missing areas of exploration. They never challenged each other. . . . On the flipside, I've noticed men often go to the other extreme being disagreeable. They have an idea they want to protect and defend. In this example, two men might adopt opposing views on neural plasticity and try to "be right". At this extreme, there is also something lost - they never really explore the issue. These of course are generalizations and not fixed. Of course a woman can be contrarian and a man can be agreeable. These are just observations I've had of common common dynamics between genders.

It sounds like you have developed healthy habits. It feels good and you desire to have those healthy habits continue, so you can continue feeling good. This desire can be a great motivator to keep the healthy habits going. It doesn't sound like it has been ingrained long enough, that it is part of your lifestyle you do automatically because it's just who you are. For example, someone may take up running and create a running schedule and goals for motivation. They may create a goal of running a marathon and have a running partner for motivation and accountability. That's great to form training habits and consistency, yet it's not quite the same as being a marathon runner that just runs automatically. It's just who they are. They know longer need extrinsic rewards. Your minds seems to go into "monkey mind" regarding your new habits. To me, it sounds like a mind that wants to get it right, to maintain what feels good and have higher consistency. The mind may also be brainstorming new healthy ideas. This is a mind with good intentions. It's not like your mind is trying to figure out how to scam people out of their money. You mention that the thoughts are too much, yet I would recognize that the thoughts are generally good-intentioned to promote a healthy life. So, I wouldn't label them as "bad" and try to get rid of them. Rather, I would acknowledge that the volume and intensity is too high. I've found it helpful to try and reduce volume of intensity of my mind. A couple years ago, I estimated that about 90% of my life was immersed in thought stories of past and future. This can have practical value in navigating through life, yet it was just too much. My mind was so focused on the destination that I felt like I was missing out on the journey. Rather than labeling past and future thoughts as "bad" and try to repress them, I tried to tone down the volume and intensity. Rather than going from 90% past/future thoughts to 0%, my goal was to go from 90% past/future thinking to 50% past/future thinking. This felt like a good balance. One thing I did was "Now workouts". Just like a weightlifting or running workout, I had "Now workouts" in which I was present with whatever was happening. If past/future thought stories took over, I would acknowledge that my mind means well, yet this is a "Now workout" - there will be plenty of time to think about past/future later. This helped settle my mind and get balance. One thing I learned is that my mind is conditioned to believe that these thought stories are necessary. My mind thinks "Without me, you won't keep it up. Without me, you will go back to being unproductive and out-of-shape". I was surprised to find out that my thinking mind contributes very little. My body does very well taking care of itself without the chatter of my mind. The body has inherent wisdom and intuition. Very little thinking is needed. Yet my mind comes along and takes all the credit. It thinks "Look how well I've done. It's a good thing you have me around". It's like after a play, someone in the audience walks upstage and takes a bow. . . In practical terms, one thing that has helped solidify habits is to form deeper roots of the habit. For example, if someone has been doing yoga for 4 months, step it. Get involved with a yoga group. Go on a yoga retreat. Perhaps become yoga certified. . . If someone is getting into marathon running, join a social group of marathon runners. Help train someone for their first marathon.

Ime, too much planning, calculating and analyzing can be a deterrent. There is a lot of magic in presence. Intuition and entering a flow state in the moment in which things are clicking. 90% of meaning and communication are not literal words - it’s tone of voice, cadence, facial expressions and body language. Plus there are energetics. If I’m in my head head calculating, I lose touch with what’s actually happening. Personally, I don’t equate confidence with getting what I want. For all I know, the woman only likes basketball players with Australian accents. Imo, being confident isn’t trying to convince her that she actually likes non-midget science geeks. Being confident wouldn’t be trying to manipulate the situation to meet my self centered needs. Rather, it would be ok with what actually is.

Just one way of framing it: You are creating linear infinity within two dimensions - the dimensions of space and time. Yet there are an infinite number of dimensions with aspects of both linear and non-linear. Infinite time = eternity = Now. Now is eternal, yet it’s hard to see because the mind is immersed within a timeline of past, present, future in one dimension. This is a video recently posted by another user. You may find it interesting.

I agree that the vast majority of humans are human-centric. Imo, this a deeper level than self-centric or ethno-centric. I don’t think the threat to humanity is systems thinking. Rather, I would say the threat to humanity is within systems thinking. It is not the system, yet is part of the system. Yellow would have a meta view to this threat to humanity. I agree that Orange is contracted within individualistic thinking. Green transcends that somewhat, and places more emphasis on collective. This collective orientation can be contracted within humanism or include non-human forms. There are many different expressions. Trans-human consciousness is not a requirement of green or yellow, although aspects of it can appear in green/yellow. Deep Trans-human embodiment is a very high conscious level at Turquoise. There are plenty of human-centric orientations with green and yellow - as well as trans-human orientations. I would say someone like AOC has more of a human-centered approach. Others are less human oriented - someone like Peter Singer or Jane Goodall. And it’s not just with climate change. Most religion/spirituality is human centric. 99% of spirituality I see is contextualized within humanness. I see many human ideas of enlightenment and human enlightened masters. Funny how all these ideas are relative to humans. Rarely do I see someone try to express insights of enlightenment they lined through their enlightened tree, butterfly, wind or river teacher. An exception would be something Ike Native American spirituality. You can contextualize the spiral like that, yet imo the standards are too high for Green. Rather than “True green”, I think you are pointing into Ter 2, especially Turquoise. And I agree that there are very very few people that have realized and embodied trans-human consciousness. I envision the future a bit different than you. Currently, I think a lot of people have a certain image of what a yellow is like and a certain image of what Turquoise looks like. Yet when someone enters Yellow and Turquoise, they may be amazed by how many different flavors of expression there is. When there are a lot of people at Yellow/Turquoise with lots of different expressions, I think a lot of different nuances and details will be revealed. Yellow/Turquoise will get updated and may get divided up into subcategories. There are few people in Tier2 conceptualizing what Yellow/Turquoise is. Look how much nuance and detail Leo has added - and that is just one person. Imagine one million Tier2 Leos working on Yellow/Turquoise constructs. We can even imagine what nuances/details will be revealed.

I also found info in the mega thread to be helpful.

It sure is a mess for the mind to figure out. . .

I’ve done San Pedro and it’s awesome for mystical experiences and insights. A smooth ride.

@wesyasz I consumed a bunch of it in South America. It’s super popular in the places I visited. I found it to be very very mild. Much milder than modafinil.

These guides might help