Forestluv

I thought you previously wrote that you haven’t done psychedelics and are considering trying it out. If you want to understand psychedelics better, the best way is to actually trip and get direct experience. Imo, you seem immersed in intellectual analysis and thought stories. There is transcendence of that. Yet it doesn’t come from more analysis and more sophisticated thought stories. One of the powers of psychedelics is that they transcend intellect and the storytelling the mind is attached to and identified with. Mental theorizing is a way for the mind to control the narrative and stay in control.

@Nak Khid You are essentially asking for evidence. The direct experience is more profound than the evidence you are seeking. In regard to evidence, have you watched Leo’s videos over the last two years? Do you really think all of Leo’s insights he expresses arise solely from meditation and theory from others? I would put less effort into analyzing others and more effort into having your own mystical experiences.

You seem to really like the narrative in your mind. There is a transcendence of that. Yet it would go off-topic.

Lol. You are trying to control the narrative.

Kinda like becoming aware of how a magic trick works.

No, it is not. You are viewing gender through a lens that benefits you and your survival. There is a meta view to that. Yet you would need to let go of the view you are attached to and identified with to transcend it - which you aren’t willing to do.

It’s so worth it.

No (I cannot answer with a simple yes or no answer. The issue is much too nuanced for that).

That’s not what I’m referring to. My impression is that you desire deeper understanding. That will come through direct experience. These intellectual musings are distractions from something deeper. Or maybe I’m wrong. Just my impression about how you post.

@Arcangelo The link is in reference to playing a male victim, which arose in this thread. I shared some of my views regarding feminism and leadership above.

@Arcangelo

That’s a distraction of avoidance. To me it seems like you have a desire to understand at deeper levels. You will not regret going for the direct experience.

You are old enough to be more mature than this. It’s disappointing to see a fellow man your age peddling this type of thing to younger men.

@Nak Khid Go for the direct experience. These types of intellectual constructs will always fall short.

@Parththakkar12 Why do you get to decide what traits count as leadership? Why doesn’t a woman get to decide the traits that make a good leader? . . . Why do you get to decide how women should behave in work environments? Why don’t women get to decide how you should act in a workplace?. . . I’ve worked in environments with the alpha male leader that calls the shots. This is not an effective leader, imo. I would say they suck as a leader. They are unable to relate to people on a human level and they create dominant / submissive atmospheres that are toxic. I worked in a lab for years with this type of alpha leader. Sure, he was able to make us productive - yet the work environment was toxic. There was an underlying current of resentment and conflict that was suppressed. It was really unhealthy. These men do not make good leaders, imo. These days, I serve on hiring committees and I would never advocate hiring this type of job candidate. Confidence, assertiveness and decisiveness can be good leadership qualities in certain contexts. Yet these traits alone would be a weak leader. A good effective leader has these traits and more. They also have empathy, compassion, humility and good listening skills. They can take advice and constructive criticism from others. They are willing to share and give credit to others. They are not insecure boys hiding behind an alpha male facade. . . I lived in the city you live in and went to CU. It is a progressive place. Look around and observe. You are in a great environment to develop and grow.

It’s so interesting to observe an intellectual approach vs direct experience. During and soon after my first psychedelic trip, there was no “me” or “you”. Not in an intellectual way, in a direct experience way. I was left dumbfounded. I remember trying to write a trip report and using terms like “me” and “I” seemed misleading, it didn’t feel right. I remember trying to interact with others on the forum and was confused why those that seemed to know nonduality through direct experience were using personal pronouns. It was one of my initial questions to Leo. To approach nondual pronoun usage from an intellectual mindset is so strange to me. I’m not saying it’s bad or wrong, it’s just weird to me because the direct experience realization is so beyond intellect.

I'm not saying you are wrong. It's more nuanced than right or wrong. . . We each have our own filter we perceive the world. As a man experiencing difficulties, it's natural to say "what about men experiencing difficulties?". There can be a filter that arises. Now, I would perceive reality through this filter. I'll notice and interpret women as being demanding, as wanting to out-man and out-compete me. I will see them as a threat to my well-being and a threat to a healthy society. As well, I will extrapolate and over-generalize - such that all women and feminists are like this. When I'm able to step outside of myself and put this personal filter aside, I see something very different. I see the oppression women undergo. I see their desire for equality very differently. I see how men often talk over women, dismiss women, and at times harass women. I can see a qualified woman getting passed over for a job promotion to a less qualified man. I'm open to asking women about their experience and learning from them. I'm able to imagine what life as a woman might be like. This perspective can be integrated with my previous perspective to give a more integrated, holistic perspective. I don't need to go to another extreme and say all women all angels and all men are devils. Rather, one can see and understand various perspectives from a meta view.

@Javfly33 This is a common appearance along the spiritual path. At first, it can seem like compartmentalizing. There is "spiritual time" in which one may meditate in a spiritual room or sangha. We may have spiritual statues and light incense to create a spiritual atmosphere. We may contemplate afterwards. . . The tendency is to then switch back to "regular" mode. Now it's time to run errands, study, go to work etc. After a while, they start to integrate and overlap. The world becomes one's sangha. At the personal level, it feels like a process. For me, it felt like I was transcending my personal story during my spiritual practices - during solo time in nature, yoga and meditation. And then I went to work and it felt like I was "flipping back" to playing a made-up character. Then I would "flip out" of it. It made for some uncomfortable moment at work and with family. I spent a lot of time alone. . . One thing that helped me was realizing that this "character" appears and disappears. Yet this is not outside nonduality. The character appears just like music and bird chirps appear. That character can appear without any attachment or identification. . . For example, last week I was at a meeting at work. There were appearances of characters in the room - including "me". At one point, someone asked me "what's your opinion?". Then an "I" appeared and words of an "opinion" left "my" mouth. Yet there wasn't attachment/identification. There weren't thought stories like "I hope my opinion was good enough", "She thinks she is smarter than me. I saw how she sighed when I was talking". That type of personal attachment/identification dissolves. . . Then later, I'm walking through nature. There is no need for that character and it disappears for a while.

Asking questions is great in conversation. Most people are oriented to talk mostly about themselves. I've wanted to become a good conversationalist for many years. Here are a few things I've had to work on. 1) After I ask a question, it's important for me to allow space for them and to be a good listener. At times, I ask a question and then I'm in my head thinking about what I'm going to say next, thinking about what s/he thinks of me, etc. 2) Are my questions genuine and am I interested in the other person? Or am I just asking questions? Sometimes when I'm asking a lot of questions, it seems like s/he is on a job interview or the witness stand. Not a good vibe. 3) Am I relating to him/her forming connections and going with the flow? Each conversation and inter-personal dynamics is different. Sometimes one of us isn't into it and it has a polite, forced feel to it. Other times, there is some mutual interest. . . Last weekend, I was with a gal and there was a lot of mutual interest. I felt strong desires to ask a lot of questions and share about myself. Yet there is a balance, if I go overboard too much it just gets to be too much. The nonverbal gaps are really important for a good conversation. The slight smiles, body language, glimpses of eye contact etc. . . Last weekend I was on a date with a gal I'm really interested in. She mentioned that she was a bee keeper. That interests me, I had lots of questions about what its like to be a bee keeper. LOTS of questions. I'd ask, give space for her to answer, listen, share some about myself and allow space for her to ask a question. She told me how she cares for the bees, I told her about how my grandfather was a beekeeper and a few childhood memories. She talked about how bee colonies form a "super organism". This led to a discussion about collective consciousness and starling murmurations. . . For me, the best conversations have a natural flow to them.

@skywords I was under the impression you had experience with both 5-meo and eye gazing, which doesn’t seem to be the case. I’d like to step out of this conversation with you. Please do not continue to try and engage me. Thank you and have a nice day.

@skywords I was under the impression you had experience with both 5-meo and eye gazing. I have experience with both and would love to explore the inter-relatedness with someone. Yet that doesn’t seem like a conversation you are able or interested in having. That’s totally fine.

@skywords I’m confused now. Have you actually done 5-meo? I’d like to discuss 5-meo and eye gazing experiences. I was under the impression you’ve done both.

Super! I wasn’t aware you have direct experience with 5-meo. How would you relate your 5-meo trips to eye gazing? What dosages and roa have you used? I’d love to have a discussion with someone who has experience with both 5-meo and eye gazing.

@skywords Thats fine. I don’t disagree with you or dismissing. I’ve done a lot of people-centered practices, including eye gazing, and have found a lot of value in it. I’m an advocate for people-centered practices. I’m also experienced with 5-meo - which also has immense value. To place the two against each other to determine an ambiguous “better” is counter-productive imo. . . You didn’t even define “better”. Better for what? And have you done 5-meo? Do you even know what you are comparing eye gazing to? To me, the wonderful people-centered practice of eye gazing is being overshadowed with some bizarre manufactured conflict with 5-meo. It would be like sharing a beautiful sunset with a lover in which you both melt into the beauty of Now. And then debating whether the beauty of this moment is better than the beauty of a solo walk in nature. For me, it’s manufactured conflict that ruins the presence and beauty of each. And it totally misses the value of each.

Not quite what I meant. I see it as a nonsensical distraction. I think a better use of effort is to disseminate the value of eye gazing as a spiritual and PD practice. A lot of people are unaware of this practice. The 5-meo part is unnecessary and distractive to exploring and learning about the value of eye gazing, imo.