Forestluv

@Martin123 All good. I consider it a compliment.

A bit of an odd situation with a gal I was recently dating. . . . There aren't many women I meet that are into self-actualization, awakening, spirituality, exploring different realms etc. . . So a couple months ago, I met a gal and we immediately connected. Even our first date, we sat and eye gazed for several minutes at a time and went to transcendent states. Like we had met each other before, knew each other, were separated and now re-united. There was a sense of joy, yet also of sadness. It was like the separation and re-uniting was a pattern. There was joy of being re-united, yet also a sadness of impending separation - like we are not allowed to be together for some reason. I got this sense immediately. It wasn't like a "woo woo" thing, it felt very real and grounded. She had similar experiences. . . And our time together was so effortless. It flowed so beautifully. Yet it seemed transcendent to the practicalities of life. When we got together it was like the "common life" of 4D dissolved and we were in a 5D realm. . . One of my senses was that the practicalities of life would again separate us. That this "transcendent" connection would not hold and this was the sadness of our "soul contract" - it was like each time we get reunited, something would arise and separate us. So. . . what happened? After being together a couple weeks, she tells me she is separated and going through a divorce. She tells me that she and her husband have agreed to date others, that he knows about me and is totally fine with it. This of course triggers a huge red flag, yet this seemed to be somewhat trivial relative to the transcendent connection I felt with her. I've only felt this a couple times in my life. . . So I decide to keep going with her, yet with a bit more distance. . . . And then one time we are together, I my phone blows up with repetitive calls from a "Caller Unknown". I answer it and it's the husband. He wants to know my intention with his wife. I hang up and he gets upset, re-calling and sending texts that I am messing with his wife and he will hold me accountable for anything that might happen. This is harassment and threats that I don't want to engage in. . . A couple days later, he tells me he had an acute episode and apologizes for his behavior. I tell the gal it made me unsettled and I needed some space. She tells me it's not that big a deal, that they are moving forward with the divorce and he is better now. . . A couple other unsettling things is that they had been separated for two years, yet they got back together every 5 months or so for sex and perhaps some type of emotional support. Yet the husband was clearly still hoping to get back together and her doing this is harmful to the husband as it re-ignites his hopes. Even though he threatened me, I really felt for the husband. I can totally understand his pov and his feelings - I've been in a similar situation. A couple weeks later, we go to a symphony and have a great time. I think perhaps we can be friends or perhaps dating if things do settle down with the husband. Last Saturday, I send her a text asking if she would like to get together and she responds: "I would like to say yes, however if you were unsettled by my storyline before (well, actually, the storyline of somebody in my life), then you will be even more unsettled now. The process of divorce is long and messy and not for the faint of heart. . . " I responded that I enjoyed our time together and felt a unique connection with her. Perhaps we could get together as friends sometime. . . . I haven't heard back from her and notice she is back active on the Bumble dating site (and hasn't indicated she is still married). So, another guy may get involved in this mess. As well, I found the phrase "it's not for the faint of heart" to be interesting. It seems she wants to meet a guy that will get involved in the "long messy" process and stick by her side in spite of the mess. And she suggests things are getting worse - does that mean the husband will ramp things up and contact some guy's work? Trash his car? Show up at his house? Restraining orders?. . . As well, I found the line "if you were unsettled by my storyline (well, actually, the storyline of somebody in my life. . . ". It's interesting in how she is dissociating herself from her husband. They were married 20 years and have a daughter. They live 2 miles apart and are in daily contact. They help take care of each other's houses and re-unite for a sexual fling every few months and he is threatening a man she dates. How on earth is that the "storyline of someone else in my life"? Perhaps she has a deep desire to dissociate from him, yet for some reason cannot. A few things I now reflect on: -- That transcendent connection seemed sooo real. And it really seemed like we both shared it. Could we have had some transpersonal soul connection, yet earthly personalities and practicalities overcame it? -- Could both have been true? Could she be this transcendent being I connected with, yet also a human behaving unhealthy? Yet if so, why would she dump me like this when it became apparent that I didn't want to play the role of a romantic partner walking through a messy divorce with her? She could have said something like - "we re-united again, yet the timing is not right". Yet she left without any indication that the transcendent connection was "real". That is what's so disappointing to me because now I feel like it wasn't real and I was just taken for a sucker again. And if there is a transcendent "soul contract" of re-uniting, getting separated due to personal life circumstances, disappointment and sadness - it doesn't get resolved and will continue on . . .

Along the theme of prior conditioning and thought stories. . . Last Saturday, I was with a psychologist friend - she wanted to show me her office. As we sat there, it didn't take long for her asking questions about my childhood. I felt some resistance since it seemed like she was creating some thought story of me. Some type of character or identity. . . Due to the conditioning I received from my parents, I now have "x, y and z" neuroses and physical problems. This just felt like some thought story she was creating. I just wanted to enter what is happening now in my mind and body. What am I feeling now, without any creation of thought stories or characters. . . Yet this didn't feel right either. It was like there was a dynamic of both. . . Yet every time she brought me back to my father's behavior and the consequences on me, it felt like story creation. I started getting really uncomfortable. She switched gears and asked me to describe what my body was feeling and what my body wanted to do. She asked me to push away with my arms "Is that what your body wants to do?". No. . . She kept asking "what does your body want to do?". I didn't know. . . Then I looked at the door and everything became clear. All of the energy in my body wanted to get up and leave. Yet importantly, not to leave her or what was happening Now. . . She told me to go ahead and walk out the door. I couldn't do it. I wasn't allowed to. . . She told me again to get up and walk out the door. . . I was paralyzed. . . And then my body got up and walked out the door. There was this huge relief and release. And a knowing that arose. It had nothing to do with my psychologist friend and wanting her to stop. . . There was absolute clarity. . . During my entire childhood, my father would get upset with me and put me on a couch and lecture me for hours about how I screwed up, how I'm harming the family, how I'm not good enough etc. I didn't want to push him away, I just wanted to be able to stand up and leave. Yet I wasn't allowed to and this feeling got repressed to the point I was no longer able to recognize it. We are talking hundreds of times and hours of this. After a while, I just started dissociating. That was my way of "leaving". . . When I stood up and walked out of her office, I wasn't leaving her. It was the energetic dynamic conditioned into me from my father and not being allowed to ever leave and repressed emotion. Some may say I'm just creating a new thought story. Perhaps I am. Yet there also seems to be some energetic dynamic happening now that was entangled with my father. There was not "past" and "present". Both were now. Perhaps similar to entanglement within quantuum mechanics.

I know this dynamic well. Taking a psychedelic and entering a space of "I shouldn't have done this. I want to go back". Yet I can't go back and there can be a panic of not being able to go back. Not being able to stop it. As well, time often has no meaning during a trip. When in that timeless anxiety/panic space, 4 minutes, 4 hours, 4 weeks and 4 years all have something in common: they are all "not now". Again, if you enter these spaces I would recommend taking extra care with psychedelics. This might be a dynamic that needs to be worked through. Ime, there were people that told me the anxiety issue is just egoic resistance to ego death and awakening and I need to face it. They were well-meaning and this is true in a way. Yet they also didn't have to live with weeks or months of trauma-related anxiety. Like I said, we wouldn't take an 8 year old boy and drop him in the middle of Mumbai by himself. As well, that anxiety inducing infinity can also become peaceful / blissful.

You are entering harm anxiety now. This was one of my biggest issues with psychedelics and I have a lot of experience with intense anxiety/panic spaces. Stuff that impacted me for weeks or months - and still returns at times. This isn't just an intellectual thing. There is a deep energetic component. Personally, this is something I take very seriously with my use of psychedelics. As I wrote above, there are psychedelic realms that can be traumatic to a mind and body. These realms can also be enlightening, yet I would be very careful. There are also loving, blissful realms. If you are experiencing intense levels of anxiety associated with psychedelic-induced loss of control - such as harm anxiety and psychosis anxiety - I would be extra cautious when using psychedelics. Even if the risk of actually causing harm or having psychosis is tiny - it doesn't matter. What matters is the underlying energetics of the anxiety/panic. Quite often this anxiety/panic is irrational - yet it doesn't matter. For example, statistics showing low risks of psychedelic-induced harm and psychosis may help dissolve anxiety in some, but not others - because it isn't a logical/rational dynamic. They can still be very helpful, yet I would be extra cautious. When I was new with psychedelics, there were a lot of people that told me that anxiety is normal and I just needed to "let go and surrender". Looking back, they didn't understand the level of anxiety I was talking about. I had to learn from experience how I personally relate to psychedelics. How I use psychedelics now is very different than when I was a newbie.

One way of viewing it is like zones of intensity. Imagine a 8 year old boy from England that has a fear of crowds. For him to face his fear, should we drop him in the center of Mumbai, India by himself? Of course not. This would have severely traumatic consequences on his mind and body. It would be much better to ease him into it. Perhaps take him to a local park that is isn't too crowed. And then perhaps to a sporting event that is semi-crowded. . . Rather than a sprint, think of it like a marathon. Rather, than having one big dramatic fight here and now, what if you saw it as an ongoing process of growth and development. . . . I've been unwinding conditioning for over 30 years and I'm still at it after thousands of hours of meditation, introspection and 100+ trips. . . Last Saturday I was talking about childhood conditioning with a psychologist friend and had a huge realization of a particular repressed feeling. If your or mind-body is trying to communicate through intense anxiety that going a route could cause massive trauma, then back off and try something else. Or just do a tiny bit to see what happens. You don't seem to be describing a basic level of anxiety in which we take a deep breath and go for it. . . Last summer, I was climbing up to "Devil's Bridge" in Arizona. I have a fear of cliff heights and as I climbed toward the higher cliff, my body clicked in with severe anxiety. Not a little bit of anxiety in a "face our fears" way. An intense anxiety/panic and my body told me "Do not continue. Period". I lost my balance and started experiencing vertigo, like I would fall. I just knew if I continued up, it would be seriously traumatizing to my mind-body and there would be a good chance that I would actually fall in this mind-body state. So I climbed back down and went to a place in which I was experiencing slight/moderate anxiety. I sat there and meditated with the anxiety and was able to surrender into it and I grew a lot from that experience. Yet, if I tried to make it all the way up to Devil's Bridge at that time, I think it would have caused trauma to me. . . Yet not to others. I noticed people on this narrow rock bride (about a foot wide) doing freaking Yoga poses and snapping selfies for IG. The drop was over 100 ft. and surely death. Yet they weren't fazed at all. . .

What is your definition of "enlightened"?

This is creating relative categories of "good" and "bad". From a personal/human perspective, we could say that having a debilitating stroke in which cognition is lost is "bad". . . However, be mindful of the sneaky ego. The ego wants to control the narrative. The survival of the ego is about controlling the internal narrative. Loss of narrative control threatens the survival of the ego and it will resist in many ways. For example, psychedelics dissolve egoic control of the narrative. To resist that the ego may say "If that happens it would be like having a stroke. We can't have that!!!". . . Introducing the fear of cognition loss or insanity is a very common dynamic of resistance. We could flip your script and say "What if psychedelics reveal that there is no difference between what is real and imagined. What if this allows an immense mind expansion that allows letting go of attachment to what is "real" and allows creative explorations into what is "imagined". Yet, the ego won't respond like this, because it wants to run the show. And of course, we don't want to use psychedelics in a way that would induce stroke-like consequences.

One way is to observe what you resonate with in your environment. Do you naturally resonate toward things that would be considered Orange, Green or Yellow? For example, which speakers, videos, politicians, activities, worldviews, people etc.? As well, there are different lines of development - such as intellectual, emotion and spiritual. And each person is a mosaic if various stages. Rather than "I am Green". One could think of it as: along the emotional line of development, it seems like I'm roughly 10% blue, 30% Orange and 60% green. On the intellectual line of development, I may be 50% Orange, 20% green and 30% yellow. Who you resonate with is the leading edge of your development. For example, one will be attracted to yellow-level thinkers before they can yellow-level think on their own. A person may watch yellow level thinkers and be really attracted to that type of thinking, and then realize "yea, but I can't think like that on my own". This is an indicator of development into that stage. Over time, the person may be out in the woods and realize they are perceiving the world through yellow lenses and yellow-level concepts are naturally arising. It's fun stuff.

Bitter, cynical

Thanks for your contributions to the forum. Best wishes, young sage.

Some people have strong visuals on lsd, other people don’t. Not much you can do about that. However, you can set mindset and setting. Rather than trip with a bunch of yahoos at a concert with color lasers and fog machines, you could trip solo in a meditative setting at home or in nature. The week preceding the trip you can meditate/contemplate and set an intention of having deep insights revealed.

Looks like I misunderstood your intention. I thought you were asking for proof from awakened teachers that psychedelics are effective. I don’t know of any teachers, other than Leo, that provide guidance on how to use psychedelics effectively on a spiritual path. It seems more like hundreds of scattered trip reports across the internet. I think in the future there will be more teachers that specifically teach psychedelic methods - similar to how many teachers today that give guidance on meditation methods. The people I listed have used psychedelics on their path, yet don’t talk much about it or give best usage instructions.

@4201 You are citing spiritual teachers that have no psychedelic experience. Of course they won’t advocate for psychedelics, since that wasn’t their path. And awakened beings are not just people that lead retreats, ashrams and give talks with a vase of flowers by their side. There are plenty of awakened beings that do not lead conspicuous lives, especially about their psychedelic use. There are awakened beings that have used psychedelics as part of their path. People like Leo, Martin Ball, Lisa Cairns, Ananta Kranti - and people on this forum. As well, go travel through Peru. I met dozens of awakened being engaging in Ayahuasca ceremonies. And native Americans have been using psychedelics for mysticism for centuries. Yet other awakened beings like Ram Dass didn’t resonate with psychedelics. Noone can give you a 100% guarantee of their effectiveness or ineffectiveness. On a scale of 1-10, perhaps the value of psychedelics for you would be 2, or maybe an 8. The only way to find out is try it for yourself through direct experimentation. At a personal level, I don’t resonate with anyone that is 100% pro-psychedelics as the one and only cure all or anyone that is 100% anti-psychedelics. Both are immature, ignorant positions contracted into partial truths.

It’s not about a discussion on nudity. No one is offended by that. You got a warning for posting a fully nude photo on the forum - which is against forum guidelines. And the thread was locked because recruiting forum members to participate in an experiment posting nude photos on Craigslist is not a good fit for the forum. You are welcome to discuss sexuality and nudity in the context of personal development and spirituality, yet do not post nude photos on the forum or direct members toward websites with your nude photos. Please read the forum posting guidelines. If you have any questions about the guidelines, feel free to PM me or another mod. https://www.actualized.org/forum/guidelines/

Rupert is great with this stuff. This reminds me of when I first started noticing "gaps". A split second gap between thoughts. . . . Then they started to get longer - a few seconds. It also felt like "resting" in the awareness to me.

I don't mean to steer in a particular direction. It sounds like you had a deep realization. Trust your intuition on how to integrate and embody it.

@PlayOnWords I used the "kind person" identity as an example because it's one of my own conditioned identities. The simple awareness of the dynamic was key for me. With this awareness, I could start seeing it pop up. . . For example, I went on a few dates with a gal and then she said "You are such a kind person". Part of it was meant as a compliment, yet I could tell there was also an energy of expectation. That she is portraying a "kind person" expectation on to me. In the past, I would have internalized this and then I would have felt pressure to always be a "kind person" around her. I didn't want this dynamic to take root, so I playfully said "Awww thanks. I'm often kind, yet sometimes I get grouchy". . . . This simply statement diffused the "kind person" expectation and dynamic.

There are a lot of behaviors to protect a particular identity. Yet I would also be careful of over-sharing. It's context dependent. When I was in therapy, I didn't go around telling everyone. That would have been inappropriate in some contexts. Could it be that you have a desire to share deeper parts of yourself with others? If so, it might help to develop close friendships in which the two of you develop mutual trust and share personal information with each other.

@PlayOnWords I think that's a nice description of self survival dynamics. I would add a couple points. The dynamic can be "external" (e.g. that other person is a threat to me). It can also be "internal". For example, someone may have been conditioned to identify as "a kind person" and try to protect the survival of their "kind person". They may hyper-analyze their behavior and be hyper-self critical. They may try to people please and seek validation from others as being a kind person. Anything that contrary to their "kind person" identity is a threat to the survival of the "kind person" identity. The person may worry about if someone interpreted something they said as "mean" and suffer. The person may be cranky and snap at another - then beat themself up and suffer. Someone else may say "you were rude" and the person will suffer. All because it threatens the "kind person identity". For someone with a "I'm a badass who doesn't take any shit" identity would not be bothered by the above, because it does not threaten the survival of their particular identity. As well, I would make a distinction between egoic-related suffering and mind-body pain/suffering. If I burn my hand, their will be mind-body pain. I could add in extra egoic pain/suffering with thought stories like "I'm so stupid to burn myself. Why does this always happen to me? I can't do anything right."

It seems like you got a good glimpse of a deep realization. Calling it "my true Self" is fine. I'm not saying it is wrong and shouldn't be described that way. Feel free to refer to it that way if you like. I was pointing more toward the relationship with the realization, rather than the technicality of any terms we use to describe it. Personally, after this type of direct realization, my mind wants to contextualize it. And it's very common for the mind to slip in a subtle "me". For example, my mind may describe it as an "experience I had" or "my true nature", "my higher self" etc. To communicate to others via language, we've got to call it something. Yet, I've found the mind can slip in subtle forms of self constructs with personal identification. It's not so much the terms used, it is the underlying energetics. If this doesn't resonate with you, toss it away.

This thread has turned into a promotion of an online nudity experiment and trying to get forum members involved. You are free to do your nudity experiments in your personal life, yet this is not a good fit for the forum. Please don't try to recruit forum member involvement/participation with this personal endeavor of yours. It's not a good fit for the forum.

@Raw Nature When a sophisticated house of cards collapses, it's epic.

Just a suggestion. . . I found it helpful to drop the "my true Self" construct. The ego is sooo sneaky and likes to lurk in shadows. Once awareness shines light on the ego, the ego loves to hide in a new shadow and take ownership of being "my true Self". This new construct of "my true Self" becomes a hiding ground for the ego. When that glimpse of pure awareness was revealed, did "my true Self" have ownership of it? Or was the thought "this is my true Self" added in after pure awareness was revealed? The problem faced with a construct of "my true Self" is. . . who/what is aware of this "true Self"? For me, what you wrote about "Awareness is aware of itself" is a deeper direct experience realization, because that's it. There is no middle self added in. Regarding functioning normally in Awareness. . . The subjective experience can feel like sometimes there is awareness and sometimes there is lack of awareness and immersion into the personal story. Yet these two are not mutually exclusive. Imagine you are driving to a retreat and there is pure awareness. There is no story of "me". Simply the awareness of other cars, roads signs etc. You arrive at the retreat and someone welcomes you asking "Where do you live? How long have you been meditating?". . . Are we going to say "There story of "me" is an illusion. There is only pure awareness. There is no "me" that lives anywhere or has ever meditated. There is only the awareness of that which appears now". . . This would be a bizarre way to interact with other humans. For me, the "character" would temporarily re-appear. I might need to pause to recall the personal story and then it appears "I live in the next town over. I've been mediating for 2 years. This is my first retreat". . . Yet there need not be attachment/identification and immersion into this character story. There can be Awareness of it's appearance, just like there is Awareness of the appearance of bird chirps. . . And after the retreat, we may go hiking in nature. Here, the character story isn't needed. The chipmunks, wind and river aren't asking about our character story. The character story can disappear and there is now Awareness without a character story playing in the mind. Regarding how to live like this. Try it out. Go to an environment in which the character story is not needed. An environment in which analysis, categorizing and thinking is not necessary. I like going into nature. Without thought stories, the mind and body seem to do just fine. There is walking, observing, drinking water, eating, sitting etc. without any thought stories. It's amazing. . . It's sorta like driving a car. Do you need to think "I must now press the gas pedal with 10 newtons of force. I now need to look in my rear-view mirror and pull this lever to initiate the turn signal". . . Of course not, it goes just fine without thoughts stories. This can be translated to everyday life. Try it out. Its a super cool way to interact with one's environment.

@Sebiwert I'm involved with science and appreciate your comments about how science can help reveal individual biases. I think you make a good point about how a "higher" conscious level can reveal individual biases. For example, an individual scientist may have personal biases as he conducts his research. Perhaps he is an oncologist with his own hypothesis of how pancreatic tumors form. His career, reputation and funding is related to this hypothesis. He can try to be non-biased - for example, by doing blind studies. Yet there will still be subconscious biases. As you mentioned, he would submit a manuscript of his work to a review panel of scientific experts. This can mitigate the original scientist's subconscious biases. Yet, we can take this up another level. A collective group of scientists review the biases of an individual scientist. Why not have a "super-collective" group that reviews the biases of the collective scientist group? We could create a "super-collective" panel made up of high level yogis, philosophers, metaphysicists etc. This "super-collective" group could help mitigate the collective biases within the prevailing scientific paradigm. This could help the progression of science. However, just as an individual ego wants to control the narrative, the collective scientist ego wants to control the narrative. For example, the collective scientist ego wants to control the narrative of what is "real" and "not real". The collective scientist ego says that certain therapies is "woo woo" and should not be covered by health care insurance. This collective scientist ego will resist being reviewed outside of their collective self-constructed paradigm. For example, notice the reaction of traditional scientists when they are criticized from above. When a transcendent scientist/mystic like Deepak Chopra criticizes the contracted scientific paradigm, there is enormous backlash within the traditional scientist collective. Someone like Deepak would be labeled a "quack practicing pseudo-science". An example is how Richard Dawkins perceives Deepak Chopra. I think a good example of science revealing individual biases would be with homosexuality. 30 years ago, the prevailing view was that homosexuality was "abnormal" and "unnatural". Through various studies, scientists showed that homosexuality occurs in every insect and animal species examined. In this context, homosexuality is completely normal and natural. This allowed many people to realize their subconscious biases. Some people might realize "Hmmm, science has revealed homosexuality is natural. Perhaps I was biased due to my religious upbringing. Or perhaps I was biased because homosexuality makes me feel uncomfortable. Perhaps it only seems unnatural to me". . . . And we can continue on to a "higher" level. . . For example, I've seen many scientists claiming that gender can be measured physically, yet they fail to consider nonphysical aspects. I observed a scientist telling a transgender woman that her gender is actually male due to the measurement of her rudimentary penis and her brain structure and activity. The transgender woman tried to explain her nonphysical experience as a woman, yet the scientist kept returning to her physical make-up, telling her "no, you are actually a male". She finally became exasperated and said "You are saying I don't exist". And the scientist said "No, you exist. Your bones, muscles, brain etc. all exist". . . In this context, it is actually the scientist that needs to have his biases revealed. A good model for this is SD theory. The traditional scientific paradigm is Orange-centered. New Green-level science is currently emerging, yet is resisted by Orange-level science (e.g. the nonphysical basis of gender). Yellow-level science is just beginning to be expressed, yet still rare. I don't think yellow-level science will have considerable mainstream appeal and impact until another 20 years or so.