Forestluv

What you describe is attachment, identification and survival of the mind, body and self construct. Appearances still appear. What appears as a personal me are just appearances. They may continue. What dissolves is the attachment and identification to those a personal appearances. One thing I found helpful is to allow awareness of an “observer”. You can do this right now. There is awareness of “my” thoughts. There is awareness of thoughts that say “this is me”. Once this awareness is aware of itself, it can observe the mind and body. Keep this awareness alive. When you walk, observe the body walk itself. When you eat, observe the body eat itself. When you feel, observe the body feel itself. When you are thinking of yourself, observe the mind think of itself.

@TheAvatarState I’ve enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. It opened up some new views for me?

@Forrest Adkins I’d say it depends on one’s orientation. If I am traveling through South America and want to explore and learn broadly as much as possible, then I would visit many different cities, rural areas, various people, cuisines, cultural events etc. If I wanted to explore deeply, I may stay the whole time in on South American village for months and get to know them deeply. . . , Yet if my orientation is to answer the question “What is South America?”, it would be silly for me to seek a thing within South America, since it’s all South American!

@thibault Sure. Just like with everything else, there is a loss of attachment to rigid definitions and identity. Attachment / identification can be difficult to let go of, yet when it is - there is expansion and new realms to explore. If I identify myself as an “alpha male that must be masculine, have sex 3+ times per week, be in control while in the missionary position in a bedroom”, it would be a very contracted identity. There is nothing wrong with that type of sex, it’s just very contracted and doesn’t give much space to explore and expand. However, openness doesn’t necessary mean every possibility will actualized. For example, as a guy expands he will be more open to various sexual expressions. He won’t judge others or himself for being sexually weird or immoral. He will come to understand the relativity of various sexual orientations. He may get curious and experiment, or maybe not. A guy that prefers heterosexual monogamy might start forming deeper heterosexual monogamous relationships as he becomes more conscious. Another guy might expand and try out bisexuality or polyamory as he becomes more conscious. Another guy could get into nondual sex in which gender is irrelevant. Another guy could lose interest in sex as being a lower level pleasure. It just depends on the person. There is no sexual rule that one needs to follow.

@Rodrigo SIlva There can be anxiety when the mind and body feel like it is losing control over defining reality. A loss of control over how things are perceived and the mental narrative in the mind. For me, this is mostly a survival instinct to protect the survival of the mind, body and self construct. What I’ve found is that with more experience in which nothing “bad” happens, the anxiety and resistance can decrease. I’ve had trips in which I felt anxiety as I lost control over the mental narrative. “Omigosh, my thoughts don’t make sense. What is happening? I don’t know what is real. What if I harm myself or someone else? I want this to stop, but I can’t make it stop”. . . During the comedown, I may realize “Oh, it wasn’t dangerous. Actually things look quite beautiful. I think I’ll go for a walk and admire the beauty of nature”. . . After going through this many times, the mind can adapt a during trips and more easily let go. The mind-body knows it doesn’t have to go into fight or flight mode. . . Yet the opposite can also occur. If I tripped in a crowded train station, list control over reality perception, got anxious, freaked out, put into a straight jacket and sent to a jail cell - that would be traumatic to the mind and body which could increase anxiety / panic on the next trip. . . For this reason, I try to choose a safe, simple, peaceful setting. Usually a place we’re I don’t have to interact with a lot of people. For me, that adds in variables. What I found over time is that with enough exposure to this unknown, anxiety transformed into curiosity and fascination. For example, the first time I lost sense of “me” in a cafe was very frightening. The “me” dissolved and I lost control of perceiving “me” relative to everything else. It was like I was becoming the entire cafe and it was scary. I didn’t know what would happen. . . Yet after this happened about 10 times and nothing bad happened, I started getting curious when it happened. It was like being a kid exploring new terrain. Now, I’m learning how to actually turn it on while sober. Yet I also respect psychedelics and I try to be cautious at 40ug and above, especially if I’m in public.

@Prevailer I’m not saying the state you propose is good or bad. It sounds like you’ve found a mind state that is good for you and works for you. That’s awesome. And I’ve experienced thoughtless states that are wonderful. What I’m referring to is the creation of “problems”, avoiding those “problems” that one just created, and seeking states free of that “problem”. If I define thoughts as a “problem”, I would then reject and avoid thoughts. I would try not to engage with them. I would seek states free of thought. I’m not saying those thoughtless spaces are bad. I’m pointing to the energetic orientation of believing what is happening now is a problem to be avoided and seeking a “better” space free of that problem. Of course this can have relative practical value to one’s sense of personal welfare. If I accidentally cut my finger off, I would consider this a problem. I would avoid making it worse and I would seek to make it better. That has value. Yet there is also an unconditional state in which there are no “problems”. It’s a paradox. There is no problem in the midst of a problem. If the mind focuses and believes on the problem it will not be able to simultaneously see it is also not a problem. A mind filled with thinking is both a problem and not a problem. A mind filled with the sounds of bird chirps is both a problem and not a problem. I find it helpful not to judge thoughts, yet rather to observe the mind-bodies relationship to thoughts. And I’m not saying this is universally true for everyone. If someone finds this helpful, great. If not, great. It seems like you have had some insights and developed understanding that is working for you. Perhaps what you’ve found might be helpful to others. If so, that’s great too.

If a situation is within “coping” capacity of previous evolution (technology, trains, internet, food production), I would not consider that an extreme crisis. I consider an extreme crisis as one that stretches beyond a previous coping strategy and promotes evolution of new strategies, perspectives, communication etc. I’m not saying no “good” can come out of tragedies. We could cherry pick some “good” that came out of the Holocaust. I am questioning the ethics of intentionally creating a tragedy and massive suffering, without consent, in the hope that something good might come out of it. For example, my town is stage centered at Orange. I could create a tragic crisis by hiring terrorists to kidnap all the children in my town, kill one child per hour and televise it to the people in my town. This would certainly cause a massive crisis, death and suffering. Yet maybe some good could come out of it. Maybe it would bring the town together and help them to evolve to green. Should we give it a try? . . . Well as long as it’s not me or my kids that get kidnapped and killed. . . Would you be willing to volunteer yourself to be kidnapped, tortured and killed for this experiment?. . . It’s easy to philosophize about it on the internet. It’s a lot harder to volunteer to be the one tortured and killed. If I’m not willing to do it, I can’t volunteer someone else (without them knowing it) to be the one to be tortured and killed. That would make me a torturer and killer.

@lmfao Thanks for your views ?

@Prevailer If we believe the thought “a neutral mind is a still mind” is true, how can we realize that a busy mind is a still mind? If I believe the thought “I need to separate the thinking mind from the I Am”, how can I realize the thinking mind is the I Am? If a thought appears and we believe it’s true, the mind will be limited to that thought belief and not see the truth in it’s opposite. To hold a belief, the mind must use it’s opposite as contrast. We cannot have one without the other. Both are true and false. I’m just bringing this up because there seems to be attachment that thoughts are true.

If you think so, it becomes so. It’s beautiful how we create our reality. A fun exercise is to just BE without thought and never define it through thought. After a while, the thinking mind will try to categorize and define it as a “thing” different from another “thing”. For example “That was a neutral mind that didn’t move”. There is nothing wrong with that, it can be fun and practical in life. Yet its also very insightful to just BE without defining anything as a “thing”. This allows for modes of being that are non-defined by thoughts. Yet the thinking mind can’t stand this. It wants to jump in and create a narrative. Anytime the mind thinks “is” - that is a thought story. “X is Y” or “A neutral mind is a sill state of mind”. The thought “A neutral state of mind is a still state of mind” IS the thought “A neutral state of mind is a still state of mind”.

I observe that the mind likes to define “experience” through thoughts. For example “This is positive. This is negative. This is a neutral state of awareness”. The mind can think “That was a neutral state of awareness”. And if the mind believes it, it becomes a neutral state of awareness and not a negative or positive state! It’s like magic.

What is an experience without any thoughts defining it?

A “neutral awareness/conscious state” is a thought.

I may return to it in this thread or my journal.Or I might not return to it. I don’t know where my mind will go. It goes all over the place.

This is super hard for the mind, since the mind is conditioned to perceive in opposites. Realizing and embodying this opens up a whole new world.

For me, that’s a great question that gets into what is trust, decisions , authority, best, me, everyone. I can’t easily answer it and it is worthy of many hours of contemplation. If I give a simple “yes or no” answer, it would be overly assumptive, grounded and insufficient. If I begin exploring “What is trust”?, it would be overly ungrounded, distractive and dissolve the question. It’s the type idea I like to contemplate, yet I think it would be a disservice to do so here and now, since my contemplations can be sloppy at first, which can be counter-productive. In general, I’ve found questioning fine when I am in a curious, unattached space.

Who/what you trust is relative to you. We create our reality. I don’t speak for Leo. I’ve never even met him and I don’t know that much about him. I don’t disagree with everything you are saying. I think you are making some good points. Yet these are individual points within a greater holism of points. For example, we could say that all there is is Now and that all that arises Now is Perfect. There is truth to that. We could also say that there is a process toward perfection. There is also truth to that. I am Perfect Now and I am a work in progress toward perfection. The journey is the destination. There is both journey and destination and neither journey nor destination. If we don’t take a step in the journey/destination, we fail and succeed. If we do take a step toward the journey/destination, we fail and succeed. I would describe this nature as a subjective experience of groundlessness. I used to be very uncomfortable with it and would seek grounding, yet now I’m comfortable with it and even like it.

This is a nuanced topic. Is a person or country 100% evil or 100% good? It depends. Is protecting animals from cruelty a good thing? If we say yes, is that saying Hitler was good? Is teaching children how to read a good thing? if we say yes, is that saying Fidel Castro was good?

Yes of course “quality” is relative. As well, nuance includes both discussions of nuances and taking specific actions without discussion. Sometimes group discussion about nuance has value, sometimes taking an action without group discussion of nuance has value. In the context of a teacher, sometimes it’s productive for a teacher to have a discussion about an issue with students, sometimes it’s productive to allow the students to have a discussion amongst themselves, sometimes it’s productive for the teacher to just make a decision on their own. Please be mindful of context and refrain from referring to spiritual practices and tools in a condescending / derogatory context. It’s fine to have issues with a certain spiritual practice / tool, yet let’s be respectful with each other about it. We have members on the forum that engage in a wide variety of spiritual practices.

That is a profound realization and can go extremely deep and expansive in direct experience and understanding. Ime, during trips I often have a deep, clear realization. Then after the trip, my mind starts thinking again and starts making stuff up. The thinking mind adds stuff in and tries to make sense of things. Old conditioning can enter and distort the purity of the original realization. Rather than making up hard rules through thought stories, I often try to get in touch with feelings, empathy and intuition. For example, sometimes it feels like the most loving thing for myself to do is take a trip (even if I don’t want to). Almost like the most loving thing to give a sick child is medicine (even if they don’t want it). . . Other times, it feels like the most loving thing to do for my mind and body is not to trip. Last summer, I got a message to learn about love for a while without tripping. I didn’t feel the need to say “I will never trip again”. Rather, it felt like I needed to do some work without psychedelics for a while,. I went six months without psychedelics and then felt a calling to micro dose with psychedelics for a while, but no big trips. I haven’t had a strong trip for nine months. Will I ever have another? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? Maybe I’ll get a calling to trip, maybe I’ll get a calling not to trip and do something else. I’m not saying it should be the same for you. I’m just offering a different orientation. If it resonates with you great, if not feel free to trash it.

All information is the same as No information. The Vision Statement of the forum: To create a high-quality, supportive online community for self-actualization work. This enters nuances like: what is “high-quality”? What counts as “supportive”? What is “self-actualization”? What counts as “work”? . . .And who should decide these things? Some of these questions are described in the Guidelines. Yet there are also grey areas that become highly nuanced and very difficult to judge. To me, there are times that seems like “Your damned if you do and damned if you don’t”. I also wouldn’t want the forum to become dogmatic. Yet imo avoiding dogmatism isn’t as simple as allowing “anything goes”. Yet I also wouldn’t go to the other extreme of “only one thing goes”.

This is the creation of a construct. Nothing wrong with that, I think up all sorts of constructs throughout the day. I just keep in mind that building these constructs are like building sandcastles. They are not made of objective concrete. In the past, my mind was oriented toward building concrete theoretical structures and it caused all sorts of problems. My mind was hyper analytical, rigid and contracted. This also caused internal distress. I found it helpful to learn to develop mind fluidity, which I find to be far superior.This has allowed me to be more observant and creative. It has allowed a sense of awe and magnificence to enter. It has increased my quality of life. In the above example, we could continue to build concrete constructs - or we can dissolve the constructs and allow space for new creative appearances. Yet it also involves letting go of attachment and identification to my previous constructs. Lets start with the analogy of atoms. . . An ion has a (+) or (-) charge. This is a duality of two poles. What would “neutral” be? Is neutral the abscence of a charge? Sure, we could say that “neutral” is neither a (+) or (-) charge. Yet, neutral is also BOTH a (+) and (-) charge. A molecule that has both a (+) and (-) ion is neutral. So neutral is neither (+) or (-) and both (+) and (-). . . . This can get into some deep observations about opposites. The mind is conditioned to think in opposites and this is a great opportunity for expansion. For me, allowing space for insights to arise is important. If my mind starts thinking up all sorts of theoretical concepts, there won’t be any room for other types of appearances. In this case, I would find it helpful to just stop at “Neutral is neither (+) or (-) and both (+) and (-) and stop theorizing. I would allow empty space and go hiking in nature and observe the interplay between opposites in nature. The combination of an empty mind, curiosity and observation is fertile ground for amazing things to arise.

It depends on many different factors. Ime, the most influential factor would be the willingness to let go and surrender. Yet there are other factors as well. "Ego death" isn't necessarily a scary experience. I've had some that were indescribably beautiful and blissful. When faced with "surrender" the ego has been like "I get to let go of that misery to enter this bliss? Heck yea!! Let's go!!". . . Yet other times have been difficult. If there is a lot anxiety prior to the trip, I'd make it as comfortable as possible as we don't want to traumatize the mind and body. For example, tripping in a crowded train station during rush hour wouldn't be a good idea. For me, I would say vaping 5-meo because there is the option to pull back if it gets too intense. Yet that option could also make it harder to "cross over".

@Nahm I hope it's ok to ask a few newbie questions. . . With psychedelic work, we often talk about how "mindset" can effect the trip. Many people set an "intention" prior to a trip. Would you say there may be greater Reiki benefits if someone "let's go of resistance" during a Reiki session? . . . Let's say a "regular guy" gets a Reiki gift certificate for his birthday from his "airy fairy" cousin. The guy thinks Reiki is "woo woo", yet doesn't want the gift certificate to go to waste, so goes to the session. Could he still get benefits? . Might this be a different relationship than say someone who has experience with lucid dreaming and psychedelics. I've consider doing hypnosis and past life regression, yet its expensive and a part of me questions whether I would full let go into the hypnosis - like I can let go with psychedelics, lucid day dreams, sensory deprivation tanks etc. I seem to do better when I am solo drifting into another world than "another person" working on "me". When the "me" dissolves away when I'm with "others", it's just ISness - it's not like "I'm receiving" anything. I'm curious how this might play out with Reiki. Is it helpful for newbies to prepare before like, like they might prepare before a trip? I'm also away that these are thought stories. Please let me know if such thought stories are disruptive to the essence of the thread. I thought there might be some other newbies around as well.

If I can stay disciplined, it will be a great opportunity for my to grow creatively. Maybe I can try to create a few videos like Leos. Yet I will miss my students. They are the closest I have to kids.