Forestluv

Whelp, it looks like the gig is up on this one, guys. . . The next humanoid unaware it is already enlightened will arise StarDate 73fw2 in quadrant 4c, dimension 23f, orange realm. Make sure to stop by the Space Kangaroo Cafe along the way. See ya all there!!

By your logic, heterosexual people don’t biologically exist either. . . .

I think that is a legitimate question. I had the same question in the early 1990s when there were a lot of political measures to prevent same-sex marriage in my country. One of theIr main arguments was that a same-sex home environment is unhealthy for a child. From what I have observed and social studies, there is no “harm” associated to a child being raised by two men or two women. One could argue what counts as “harm”, yet in terms of being well-adjusted to life, there doesn’t seem to be a significant difference in terms of personal problems. Of course there are differences between same sex and opposite sex upbringings, yet I would say there are pros and cons to both. I would put it in the same category as a child being raised by two parents that are scientists or two parents that are artists. These environments are different and will shape the child differently, yet I wouldn’t say one is better than the another. I’m much more concerned about clearly unhealthy environments for children. For example, children growing up in poverty, high crime, abuse, drug/alcohol addicted parents etc.

You don’t understand what its like being an LGBTQ person. You just said that you have no LGBTQ friends and don’t think there are any LGBTQ people in your country (which there are). Again, you will need to imagine this. . . Imagine being a gay man. Imagine telling this to your parents right now. Imagine announcing on the internet you are gay. Imagine walking outside with your boyfriend holding hands. Imagine going to school and social gatherings with your boyfriend. . . If you cannot imagine how difficult this would be, you will not be able to understand the underlying dynamics. . . In most of the world, coming out takes immense courage and can have severe consequences like being banished from ones family, being stigmatized, ostracized, ridiculed, threatened and beaten. As well, there are many courageous LGBTQ people asking for equal rights (not special rights, not privileged rights - equal rights). For example, in your country there is ACCEPT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accept_(organization) Yes, teenagers and young adults have higher suicidal tendencies than adults. Yet I said LGBTQ people. LGBTQ teenagers have much higher rates of psychological problems, suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts than non-LGBTQ teenagers due to societal stigmatization and ostracization. To me, you don’t understand and cannot imagine what it would be like to be a LGBTQ person.

There are LGBTQ people in your country. And they are beautiful people. They want to live a life to express their true self and love who they love - just like you do. The idea “There are no LGBTQ people in our country” is societal propaganda and programming. It is also of form of marginalization. Imagination can be a door to understanding. . . Imagine not being able to express your true self. Imagine you had to pretend like you were something you were not. If you expressed your true self, you would be rejected by your family and public. You would be stigmatized and ostracized. You would be threatened and beaten. . . Imagine the pain and suffering of hiding your true self from others. The mental anguish gets so bad that you struggle with suicidal thoughts and desires. . . . This is actuality: LGBTQ people have much higher rates of severe psychological issues and suicide due to societal stigmatization and ostracization. There are LGBTQ people in your country that would come out if safe. Now imagine being an advocate for LGBTQ. Imagine that you start a website as a safe place for LGBTQ people in your country. You ask to meet any LGBTQ people, so you may better support and love them. You organize social events in which LGBTQ people can come together and be safe to express themselves. You take initiatives to educate the public about LGBTQ in your community. . . How would this go over? How would you feel (not think) about doing this?

For those that want evidence that life is a dream, just read some of @zeroISinfinity ‘s posts. ?

I’ve been working on my social distancing long serve. One thing I’ve found helpful is to supplement the smile serve with a touch of hand wave. Yet don’t overdo the wave or the ball will go out of bounds.

By your logic, Christians should be allowed to own slaves, murder people for adultery and stone anyone that collects sticks on the Sabbath day. . . We wouldn’t want to corrupt the religion. . . ?

@The observer It’s a delicate balance. . . . I remember at times my old Buddhist teacher would treat me so gently, yet other times he smacked me with a stick. . .

You are not able to imagine from the perspective/experience of a gay person. If you could, you wouldn’t be asking these questions. Rather than having an intellectual debate, why not learn what the actuality is like? When I was in my 20s, I become good friends with a couple of gay people. Not just on a surface level. We routinely spent hours talking deeply about our lives. Our experiences, fears, vulnerabilities, loves etc. . . I also had the opportunity to play a young gay man in a movie. I really had to learn and imagine what being gay is like to play this character in the movie. . . And I think I was the only straight person on the movie set. I got to know them quite well. What their lives are like. So much was revealed to me about what it’s like. . . There were a few homophobic people in the city that treated me poorly because they assumed I was homosexual since I was doing this movie. When I advocated for my gay friends, the maltreatment intensified. I got a taste of what the judgement, discrimination and harassment is like. Ime, it’s not something someone can learn by debating on an Internet forum. If you really want to deepen and expand you understanding and love, I would recommend spending time with LGTQ people and having deep conversations. Get to know them as friends. Spend time in public with your LGBTQ friends. Observe and notice how they are treated. Notice how you are treated just by being with them. Notice how it makes you feel. . . If one doesn’t know/imagine what something is like, they will not be able to have a mature, holistic discussion. They would be restricted to their own self-biased view.

@cetus I’m such a sucker for this. . .

Imo, your mind is seeking grounding and is uncomfortable with groundless. It seeks form and is uncomfortable with formless. . . for example, there is no grounded definition I can give you of what a psychedelic is. No definition can capture it all and any definition is a limited partial truth. It is like asking what a mound of clay is. To me, the issue here has to do with dualities. If you have interest here, I would recommend putting some work into nonduality. Leo has made videos on duality and there are lots of great nonduality speakers. Personally, I resonate very strongly with certain psychedelics under certain settings. My mind has expanded beyond what I could have imagined. My relationship to reality has changed. The self has been largely transcended. New spaces of exploration have opened up. Creativity, Intuition, Energetics, Motion, Presence, ISness. My mind is much more fluid and holds thoughts lightly. The mind is not so attached/immersed/identified to any particular thought story. There is a freedom present. . . Yet it wasn’t just psychedelics. I had a substance-free meditation practice for 25 years before my first psychedelic. I’ve also done yoga for years as well as shamanic breathing, lucid dreaming, solo retreats, cultural immersion and sensory deprivation tanks. As well as a lot of integration work. That is my resonance. Others may not do well with psychedelics. They may resonate with other practices. Regarding “knowing”, I would say there are various manifestations of this. I’m not as interested in knowing facts, I’m much more interested in implicit knowing. . . For example, how do you ‘know’ that now is now? Do you ask each day for evidence that now is now? Do you get online and ask physicists to prove to you that now is now? Similarly, how to you know that here is here? Do you wake up each morning asking for evidence that here is here and here is not the moon? Of course not, because that knowing comes prior to the form of ‘evidence’ you are seeking. . . In terms of reality, it can be easily verified through inquiry and observation. If you want to explore what is real and what is dream, I would start by dropping the duality that it is either real or dream. I would start exploring areas that are sorta dream / sorta real hybrids. This comes prior to the intellectual analysis. . .

Great. . . You just said you have no idea about tripping and the psychedelic experience. Why would you hold onto your ideas of what tripping and a psychedelic experience is like? Notice how you are asking me to either accept or deny your pre-conceived conclusion that “a psychedelic is a certain limited object that exists in the world which gives you certain states similar to the dream state (hallucinations and visuals)’. . . This is like saying “I have no idea about the Chinese language, Chinese culture and I’ve never been to China, yet do you deny that my beliefs about China are wrong and if so, please provide evidence on my terms that I am wrong.” Don’t give so much weight to trip reports. These are several steps away from the direct experience and not the actuality. . . Direct experience of trip => contextualization of trip by the person => expression of contextualized trip via limited language In a trip report => re-contextualization of trip report by the reader. . . There are two many steps removed from the initial direct experience. For example, if you have a filter that says “a psychedelic is a certain limited object that exists in the world which gives you certain states similar to the dream state (hallucinations and visuals)”, you will interpret the report through that filter. I am not accepting nor denying that statement. To do so would be a disservice to you as it would re-enforce the dualistic construct you have created. The statement has partial truth in one context and lacks truth in another context. If you want to expand, drop the pre-conceived ideas. Drop “accept vs deny” of my pre-conceived idea. Drop “right vs wrong”. . . It’s not about you being “right” or “wrong”. It’s more that you are not aware of that which you have not yet awoken to. . . Let go of beliefs, allow space, get curious, explore and discover. Ime, psychedelics usually do not produce visuals or hallucinations and are quite different than dream states. I’ve practiced both for years.

This is a great question. Now observe your orientation. Are you oriented to gain insight from people that have extensive experience with both psychedelics as well as without psychedelics? Is there openness and space for insights to be transmitted to you? Or has your mind already concluded what psychedelics are and attached to that conclusion?. . . We can easily see by what follows. What follows next? Is there a pre-conceived conclusion about what psychedelics are? Or is there openness and space to explore and grow? This is as clear as clear can be. If you can’t see this orientation, I can’t help you. Notice how you asked a question about something you have no experience or understanding, yet already had your answer. You asked a question and then give the answer to your question!! Without ever trying a psychedelic, you have concluded: — Psychedelics are a small portion of reality — A dream is identical to a psychedelic You have no idea what you are talking about because you lack any direct experience, yet have convinced yourself that you do know what you are talking about. If you tripped 50 times with a variety of psychedelics, a variety of doses and a variety of settings, your understanding would greatly deepen and expand - you would look back and laugh about how little you know now. You have already defined what psychedelics are without ever trying psychedelics. What good is my actual experience with psychedelics when you have already defined what psychedelics are? This filter is keeping you contracted within your current paradigm. You have no clue what psychedelics are like, yet believe you do. It’s like walking into Calculus class with no understanding of Calculus and then telling the professors what Calculus is and asking them to prove you wrong. These are chains that only you can free yourself of (if you are interested and desire it). I’m unable to penetrate this filter that protects your pre-conceived ideas. Your mind already thinks it knows psychedelics. You must first become aware that you don’t know, let go of pre-conceived ideas, allow space and get curious to explore and discover. If you ask “What is the essence of Tasmania?” and then state what the essence of Tasmania is (without ever being there) and then ask for others to provide evidence on your terms that you are wrong. . . .there is a major block to realization, deepening and expanding.

I’m pointing to something prior to this categorization. This is a contextualization, which is fine it’s it’s own sense, yet it distorts the original point by adding in another filter of contextualization. ISness => contextualization as energetic orientation => contextualization of energetic orientation as subjective/assumption. There is nothing wrong with this type of construction and it can have practical value. Yet each filter distorts what lies ‘prior’ to the filter. I’ve verified this in my experience, yet I would say it is an advanced skill to be able to transform energetics intentionally. I’ve tried with limited success, yet I’ve notice a small minority of people naturally have skills in n this area.

This is something for you to observe. Introspect your desires. What is the source of the desire? In which direction is the desire pulling you? Is it pulling you toward contraction or greater expansion? Concepts can have value as structural support as well as practical value in life. Yet, they are very limited. Imagine we are in a hostel in Tasmania. It is our first day, we are having breakfast and you are intellectualizing about the essence of Tasmania. You haven’t even seen Tasmania and are telling Tasmanians what it’s like to live in Tasmania! Everyone leaves for the day to actually explore Tasmania, you stay in the hostel thinking about what Tasmania is. Some people explore the forests, others walk around villages, others engage in ceremonies with local Shamans. They all return to the hostel that night to share there realizations and actual experience of the essence of Tasmania. They connect with locals and say “Yes! Yes! That ps what it was like. Yet, it’s so hard to put in words”. . . Yet, you then start demanding “evidence” for these claims and start correcting everyone about how wrong they are. . . . Don’t you see the problem here? You will not gain broad, deep understanding of Tasmania by sitting in the hostel the whole time intellectualizing and maintaining pre-conceived ideas. You would actually need to set down the pre-conceived ideas, step outside the hostel, explore, learn and discover. Rather than arguing from a position, a much better approach would be to actually ask locals “where is the best places to explore the essence of Tasmania?”. After they answer, we don’t say “That’s not evidence. That’s not Tasmania“. Rather, we ask for directions, prepare our backpack with supplies, leave the hostel and actually venture out. You have shown a similar orientation here. On this forum, there are experienced “Tasmanians” that have experience and realizations of which you haven’t awakened to. Rather than dismiss it or argue against it, get curious and explore. For example, there are people here that have done psychedelics 100+ times (including myself). There are people here that have spent thousands of hours integrating such insights and have a high level of fluency and expertise. Yet rather than getting curious about this, you dismiss it as “hallucinations”, without ever experiencing it yourself. You demand evidence, yet you have no idea what counts as evidence because you’ve never tripped!

This isn’t about you or your questions. It is about orientation. It’s context dependent. As I’ve said, I actually agree with your position on physical reality. You just aren’t seeing that it is a contracted position. The question “what is dream and what is real?” can have very different orientations. If you actually wanted to learn what is dream and what is real, you would be asking questions about how you can discover this for yourself. There are many people on the forum highly experienced in this area. Then, you would be actually be doing the practice. If someone wanted to discover what it’s like to live n Tasmania, they would be taking action. They would be learning the language, planning the trip and actually going and living in Tasmania. They wouldn’t be sitting in a chair debating what it’s like.

This isn’t about “my” ideas vs “your” ideas. I actually agree with you ideas of a physical reality (I am a science teacher). What I’m saying is that the ideas are limited and you will not expand and deepen by demanding “evidence” within the confines of the contracted mindset. Notice over the last month how you’ve said over and over and over. . . “Show me evidence. That’s not evidence. I don’t find that convincing”. This is a merry-go-round that maintains contraction. It is a mind trying to control an internal narrative. It’s not about your idea vs someone else’s idea. It’s about introspection, observing how your mind works and having realizations / direct experience beyond the intellectual thought stories you are attached to. How much time are you spending in thoughtless spaces exploring things like energetics, motion, intuition, feelings, presence and creativity (without any thought stories). To me, you seem all-in to a particular thought paradigm.

It depends on the energetic orientation. If there is curiosity and desire to explore, yes conversation can help open a mind. However, a mind that is oriented toward defending a position, demanding “evidence” on it’s own terms and a desire to control the narrative will not open with conversation, because the “conservation” is actually argumentation of opposites and re-enforces one’s pre-conceived position. It is actually counter-productive. Sometimes it’s best to do the actual practice and work. If s eons is all-in with theoretical philosophy and is doing no practice, it is a tell-tale sign of a contracted mind.

@Someone here Arm chair philosophy will not get you to the deeper and more expansive levels. You can spend years debating and demanding “evidence” on your terms and make no progress. Tell us about the actual practices you are engaged in to explore the nature of imagined and real. Are you practicing lucid dreaming? Shamanic breathing? Sensory deprivation tanks? A solo retreat? Psychedelics? Extended hours meditating and observing nature? Kriya yoga? . . .

Below is not an open mindset. And it is a small example of the pattern of over a hundred of your posts. You are not aware of what an open mind is. Watch the below video (if you have an open mind).

You’ve made over a hundred posts the last couple of weeks defending and arguing your pre-conceived ideas. Be mindful of tricking yourself into a self-deluded belief of genuine open-mindedness. Below is not a genuine mindset of “I just want to have to fruitful conversation and learn”. Be here with an open mind to learn. If you revert back to arguing your position and mental masturbation, the thread will get locked. You’ve spent many hours this week intellectually debating and correcting the wrongness of others. How many hours did you spend this week in practice to actually explore the ISness of real and imagined? If you really want to realize and expand, the intellectual merry-go-round will not get you there. You need to do actual practice.

This is the same area as this thread you recently started Rather than demand “evidence” on your terms and argue for your preconceived position - open your mind, experiment, practice, observe, gain direct experience and integrate. Your intellectual argumentation is a distraction for you and others on the forum. If you continue to do so, this thread will get locked. Intellectual masturbation and argumentation defending a held belief structure will not reveal actuality and deeper levels of knowing. If you genuinely want to explore and learn about how dreams and reality relate, let go of the attachments you are so fiercely defending and do some actual experimentation and exploration. For example, watch Leo’s videos on open mindedness and Life is Dream. Practice lucid dreaming while asleep and awake, do sensory deprivation tanks, psychedelics, kriya yoga, shamanic breathing, self inquiry, a solo retreat, extended time meditating in nature, strong determination sits. This can get you off your merry-go-round and lead you to realizations and deeper awareness. And please don’t bait people into your intellectual traps and agenda. Be here with an open, genuine, humble mind that genuinely wants to learn and expand.

I’d communicate this with her.

All economies globally will be negatively impacted. Yet the U.S. will be one of the harder hit due to a poor response.