Forestluv

Yes. This is one of the areas Ram didn’t explore, realize or embody. One of my realizations on my first trip was that a “psychedelic mindset” is as real as a “sober mindset”. This allows viewing the “realness” and “imagination” in both. And allows the dissolution of distinctions between “psychedelic state” and “sober state”. . . Yet I commonly see people perceive a psychedelic-induced mindset as being hallucination, imaginary or not real like a sober mindset. This can be a conscious or subconscious belief. Even people that have tripped dozens of times still have it. And I can tell by reading Ram’s essays on psychedelics that he too still had the view that psychedelic-induced spaces are somehow “altered”, “less real” or “not it” relative to sober spaces.

The medulla is a primordial brain stem involved in involuntary functions such as sneezing, vomiting, swallowing and cardiac function. I have not heard of any negative impact of psychedelics on the medulla and I have a hard time imagining how medulla function would interfere with having awakenings. My impression of Ram Dass is that he had extensive experience with psychedelics and he sincerely used psychedelics to expand his consciousness. However, I think Ram only explored one area of psychedelics and extrapolated his experience beyond his experience. For example, I have read Ram Dass explain how psychedelics induce a blissful state and how people who use psychedelics chase that blissful state. . . Those blissful states are certainly a realm of psychedelics and seeking those blissful states through psychedelics is certainly a dynamic. That’s not the problem. The problem is that Ram over-generalizes. He extrapolates his experience to be a greater-arching truth. He is not aware of what he never experienced with psychedelics. I think Ram makes a good point, yet it is one point. The problem is taking one point and extrapolating it to all points. Imagine living for five years deep in Peru. You explore all sorts of Peruvian aspects. Cuisine in Lima, Ayahuasca ceremonies, music, Incan culture, Macchu Picchu, Quechua culture, language dialects etc. You would have a good idea what Peru is like. The problem is if you believe that Peru is South America and extrapolating your experience in Peru as being true for all of S. America. A meta view would realize that Peru is within South America and is one aspect of South America. As well, a meta view would allow realization that my experience is limited to within Peru and there are aspects of South America that I did not explore. Without this meta view, the mind will be delusional that Peru is South America, make silly claims like South American music is centered around pan flutes and arguing about how Peru is South American with people that actually live in other countries of South America. Now imagine someone did psychedelics for years and were immersed in a dynamic of chasing blissful psychedelic experiences that became distractive to awakening. They may extrapolate that personal experience to be true of psychedelics. A meta view would see that they only explored a subset of psychedelic “territory”. This would most likely come from someone that has deeply explored another “territory” of psychedelics. Reaching this meta view requires holding one’s own view lightly, being open and curious - as well as having intuition and empathy for another. I’m curious what it would be like if I had a long conversation with Ram. We developed a strong connection regarding how psychedelics can lead to blissful state chasing and be a distraction (I have experience with this myself and I’m confident I could have connected with Ram on this). Yet then I start fluently describing psychedelic aspects outside of Ram’s experiential range. I’m curious if he would have been be open to it.

Traditionally, democrats are awful at framing issues. The linguistic specialists, such as George Lakoff, have been talking about this for years. The framing of “Defund the police” is atrocious. It doesn’t even accurately describe what most are calling for. However, this frame can easily be used by republicans to portray democrats as “weak on defense” or “lawless” as they’ve done for decades. Many Americans do not contemplate the issues and learn about nuances. I’m seeing around me like “Omigosh, I can’t believe democrats are calling to defund the police. The police have some problems, yet we need police and I think it’s better to address those issues than”. And when I say that police officers are often called in for situations they are not trained for, such as mentally ill and addictions and perhaps we should shift some police budgets toward having specialists in mental health, addiction and domestic violence, they respond “Absolutely, that sounds like a good idea. Yet I’m against defunding the police”. . . This highlights the problem of bad framing and linguistics and a weakness of democrats. They need to come up with more accurate framing terminology. “Restructuring the police” is better, yet hasn’t been good enough. I’m also starting to see “Re-imagining the police”. Meh. . . I can’t think of a short and simple frame off the top of my head. Maybe something like “communitizing the police”. . . Yet there are also violent aspects that need to be considered. There are an enormous number of high-powered guns in the U.S. and the 1994 crime bill sought to combat that by militarizing the police and “getting tough on crime”. This has escalated violence and has spilled into areas in which police violence is suboptimal. However, American identity and lobbyists perpetuate a gun culture. Some Americans see the violence and think we need more guns to deal with it. More civilians having guns, more police officers with more powerful weapons. This re-enforces and further escalates the dynamic.

@Godhead Yes!!! Thank you ?

At a personal/human level, what you write is important. If we want to treat the mind and body with care, we don’t want to use substances recklessly or become addicted to them. What if a person has had wonderful experiences on LSD and is miserable without them? If the person starts chasing experiences as an escape of their misery into bliss, this can cause a problem for the person. So I agree that at the human level, we should treat the mind and body kindly. For example, I would not suggest that someone’s first trip be 10 hits of LSD in a crowded train station in New York City. That would be traumatic to the mind and body. At a transcendent level to the person / human, what you write has no relevance. in this realm there is no “me”. There is no “my body”. No “my goals and needs”. My story has no more relevance than a spider in Guatemala. Notice the idea of “you want to get enlightened”. Who/what is the “you”? The mind may quickly think “Me, of course”. What/who is “me” is actually a very deep area of inquiry and exploration. This inquiry/exploration may allow for the realization that there is no “me” and that there is no “me” to get enlightened. There is no one to get enlightened. . . Also, notice the assumption of enlightenment. What exactly is this enlightenment? If “you” are not enlightened, how do you know what it is? How do you know it even exists? If I asked “Are you debkijed?”. You would have no idea if you are debkijed. Also notice how you use the term “drug” for psychedelic. That is very revealing about your mind’s relationship with psychedelics. When I lived in Peru, everyone called the psychedelic Ayahuasca “medicine”. They had a very different relationship with psychedelics. For them, it was medicine that allowed healing. . . If you went on a monthlong meditation retreat in a far away beautiful forest filled with lovely flowers and birds chirping, your chemical physiology would be dramatically altered. The neurotransmitters in your brain would be dramatically altered. This altered state of consciousness could allow for a sense of deep relaxation and the appearance of deep insights. Yet you probably wouldn’t call it a “drug” even it you biochemistry and mindset has been altered more than a psychedelic. This is a form of social conditioning in western culture. Altering one’s mindstate through meditation is “natural” meditation-induced state and altering one’s mindstate with psychedelics is an “drug-induced” state.

I’ve found it easy to get contracted into notions that love is an emotional feeling. In that context, it is hard to imagine unconditionally loving a water bottle. Yet even in this context, I have felt deep emotional love for inanimate objects. Not in the sense of “I love my car because I feel so good in it”. More like loving a tree similar to how one would love a human. I’ve never had it for a water bottle though. This emotional love is of course within absolute Love. Yet absolute Love is infinitely broader and deeper. Your water bottle itself is Love. It is an expression of Love. . . Ime, the easiest way to get a glimpse of this is going out in nature. The entire forest is Love, regardless of wether I feel emotional love for it or not. There can be a heart awakening in which one realizes “Omg!! The entire forest is Love!!!”. Wether the body feels emotional love for it is irrelevant. For example, the body might feel a sense of appreciate or awe as it realizes the entire forest itself is Love. Or the body might start laughing or crying during the heart awakening. It doesn’t matter, the entire forest is still Love. I’ve noticed that adding in humans can make it harder to realize absolute Love for some beings. Perhaps due to all the conditioning and baggage people have with humans. Imo, it’s easier to first remove the human element, have a heart awakening of human-less absolute Love (such as in nature). This can be a half-step. Then, add back in the human element and have another heart awakening of Love that includes humans. At a transcendent level. . .hate, love, sadness, anger, guilt, joy. . .are all Love. As are ham sandwiches, paper clips, dogshit, sunsets, piano music. . .

It doesn’t matter. It’s whatever arises. Imagine loving whatever is. Any IS that you create is loved. You can make up any story or object you like. Whatever it is now, it is loved. It could be Leo the human one day and then Leo the ham sandwich the next day, then Leo the delusion, then Leo the space kangaroo and on and on. Whatever is arising now is loved unconditionally. Even if you misinterpret a stick as a snake. The misperception of the snake is love, The realization it’s actually a stick is love. The perception of the stick is love. A rabbit perceives the stick differently than you - that’s love too. Unconditional love includes all relativity. There is no escape from unconditional love.

Do you know your threshold dosage? if 10ug is threshold, that plan should work, yet you might get diminishing returns. Everyone’s sensitivity is different,

If absolute infinity = Logic, then why not just call it absolute infinity? As soon as you say Logic is “x” it becomes relative since Logic is now not “a, b, c. . . “. If you are trying to create a new construct of Absolute Logic, then logic, illogic, sorta logic, ham sandwiches and refkub are all Logic, since Absolute Logic has no conditions.

This is within the theory you’ve created. You can create whatever you want in your theory. Imagine you are creating a movie and ask me “within the movie I am creating is it possible to prove xyz?”. How the heck am I supposed to know? You can create whatever movie you want. You can make it possible or impossible. Have fun. Observe how the mind creates theories with symbols and how the mind is attached to those symbols and theories. There is nothing wrong with symbols and theories - it’s fun stuff and can be very practical. Yet when the mind tries to get grounded and becomes attached to certain symbols and theories, it no longer flows like water. . . What happens if you self-inquire “what is logic?” and go prior to any definitions of logic? What is there? You seem to have a belief that there is an external, objective thing called ‘logic’

I imagine a pink elephant. The image is a pink elephant, everything else is not, according to my image. . .

@krockerman I’m not disagreeing with you. What you say is true within that which you create. You can create whatever you want and that creation is true as itself. Notice how the mind holds onto a creative construct and how that limits infinite creative potential. If I am holding onto a construct I’ve created, how can I create something new? If I am holding onto a pineapple, how can I create music on a piano?. . . Again, I’m not anti-pineapple. I love pineapples. Yet I won’t be able to play Beethoven’s 5th symphony if I am holding a pineapple.

Notice that you say there is no exit from absolute infinity and then you define absolute infinity as logic. That is your creation. Imagine we are in a Grand Hotel with no exits. There are many inter-connected rooms within the Grand Hotel. We could say there is no exit from the Grand Hotel. Yet it would be inaccurate to say Room 227 is the Grand Hotel. That is a limited construct you are creating. There is nothing wrong with that construct and it’s cool to explore it as much as you would like. Yet it’s truth is limited to that construct. If everything within Reality obeys the laws of logic, that means that there are no things that disobey the laws of logic. That is a limitation since it excludes that which disobey the laws of logic. Ok. . . . A equals B and A does not equal B. Observe how the mind attaches to words and symbols. Yet words and symbols are merely pointers. The description is not the described. A description cannot describe the indescribable. . . . If the mind holds too tightly to the description, it will miss the actuality of indescribable. . . Another orientation is to gain direct experience of indescribable and then fumble around trying to describe the indescribable.

That would be like saying nature is river itself. In a sense, this is true. Yet it is misleading since a river is also within nature. Nature also includes trees, birds, chipmunks, rocks etc. A mindset of “nature is river itself” is contracted and would miss out on a lot of nature. There is nothing wrong with rivers. Rivers are awesome, I love them. Yet one would be missing out if they were restricted to rivers. Similarly a mindset of “existence is logic itself” will miss out on a lot of existence. There is nothing wrong with logic. Logic is awesome. I love it. Yet one would be missing out if they were restricted to logic.

Talking about this is tricky because of the meaning we give words and symbols. The description is not that which is described. . . I would say that I’ve been in tune with what most people would call “paranormal” or “supernatural”. In the future, I think healing modalities will be very different than today. Future humans will look back and consider modern medicine as barbaric.

Not all of us are spiritually gifted like Maharshi or Nisargadatta. I got tired of crawling up the mountain on my belly and chose to take a helicopter. “Internal support” vs. “External support” are categories you are creating. Meditators are filled with chemicals, just like someone tripping. Sadhguru is tripping balls while he meditates.

The power of belief goes deep. I checked out a few of those links and they seem mostly religious faith healing. In some circles, it is belief/faith. In other circles, it is paranormal. And in other circles, imagination. When I was in Honduras, I went to church with my host family. For the Christmas mass, they had a special pastor from Guatemala City. A big name in this arena. At the end of the mass, he did about 30min. of faith healing. I had never seen it live before. They are very religious in Honduras and I wanted to see how far they go. I casually asked people about how they feel about medicine and faith healing. Most people thought both were necessary for healing. Nearly everyone said “Without god and faith, the medicine won’t work”. And everyone had a story about someone they knew that miraculously healed.

It depends on the forum. I’d say the self actualization and meditation forums are a mix of green, yellow and Turqoise. When orange enters, it sticks out. . . Yet I’d say the dating/sexuality and politics forums are a mix of high blue, orange and green - with a sprinkling of yellow. One needs go all the way down to red or low blue to stick out on those sub forums.

Leo did a video not too long ago when he talked about the cycle of division and unity. Anyone happen to remember which video it was? I’d like to watch it again in light of recent events.

Another indicator of a turning point. NASCAR announced they will ban the confederate flag at all races, venues and properties. NASCAR is deeply popular within southern state white conservatives, the deepest of red Trump country. It’s pretty much the only place it is popular. For them to unify against the confederate flag is another sign of a cultural shift imo. As well, they took the below photo with NASCAR drivers standing in solidarity with the only full-time black NASCAR driver Darrell “Bubba” Wallace standing center with a black “I Can’t Breath, Black Lives Matter” shirt. . . And for a double punch. . . They are ALL wearing masks and standing six feet apart. All the NASCAR drivers to be standing six feet apart and wearing masks in solidarity in accordance to the recommendations of health experts is a show of support for health care providers and experts.

Thank you. You just made my day. ❤️ ?

@Chumbimba This is just a POV. . . I would be cautious about framing it as “How can I go deeper into pain” and consider a frame like “How can I go deeper into feelings”. Or “How can I release stored tension and blocks”. After one Ayahuasca ceremony, it was revealed that I still had some stored karma/tension energy within my body regarding my father over stuff that happened over 30 years ago. This was surprising, because I had worked through this in therapy and I had a few heart-to-heart talks with my dad. Cognitively, I had no more resentment to him. I could intellectually understand that he himself had a troubled upbringing and did the best he could. Yet there was still something deeper going on. Someone at the retreat suggested that I pretend that a pillow is my father and start punching the pillow. Allow the anger to rise and start screaming as I punch the pillow. . . Yet I couldn’t do it. I tried, yet it felt like I was faking it. . . A few months later, I got into Shamanic/Holotropic breathing and during one session all this stored body memory energy started getting released. Yet it wasn’t really “anger” or “pain”. But it sorta was. But also more. There were also a lot of tears, yet in a sorta good way. It was more like release. Yet if I had an intention of “I want to go deeper into anger or pain”, I’m not sure I this release would have surfaced. As well, it helped clarify “pain”, since at times there were just appearances of experience without the mind thinking “this is bad, I want this to stop”.

A few points that caught me attention: 1. Changing laws and changing hearts/minds. For example, in the U.S. there are anti-discrimination laws in place for hiring practices, yet this does not address the underlying hearts/minds that would be motivated to discriminate based on race, sexual orientation, gender etc. 2. Cruelty to animals is not far from cruelty to humans. I hadn’t thought about it like this before. Engaging in cruelty to animals, could de-sensitize someone to cruelty to humans. 3. Selective cruelty. In addition to selective animal cruelty, there is selective human cruelty. For example, during the U.S. invasion of Iraq, I noticed many Americans had selective cruelty. Many Americans clearly valued American lives over Iraqi lives. When there were reports about innocent Iraqi’s being abused, held in horrific prisons or killed, it just didn’t move many Americans. There was this sense of the “other”. Yet when they saw news about an American reporter, American tourist or soldier being abused by Iraqis, they would get MUCH more upset and even outraged lusting for revenge over those “barbaric bastards”. I’m trying to think of an area I engage in being ok with “selective cruelty” to a living being. . . Perhaps with an aborted embryo or fetus. I was raised in a religious home that was very pro-life. Yet it never stuck. I then went off to the University and studied science. I’ve always thought it best to reduce the number of abolition’s, yet I never felt much empathy for an embryo or fetus. I’ve had to put effort into understanding how someone would get so upset about killing an embryo/fetus as well as developing empathy in this area. . . However, if I am hiking in a forest, I easily have empathy for a deer and hope a hunter doesn’t shoot it. — One thing I would add is the importance of spending time with people that have different life experiences, races and perspectives than one’s self. Whoever one is uncomfortable with. That could be a certain race, sexual orientation and nationality. And getting to know that person. At my academic institution, every student majoring in a language has to study abroad in a foreign culture for at least one year. It’s something I’d like to see as a requirement for all students, yet it might be difficult to do logistically.

I did not ‘legitimize’ looters, rioters or the killing of anyone. As well, I have never said I was in favor of “defunding the police”. Stop creating these frames of conflict opposition. As I said, you are in a grey area of closed-mindedness and splintering the community. You are being given an opportunity right now to learn and grow. If you are here to argue and spread pre-conceived ideology, you will not last long. I have written about how I understand the perspective that would motivate someone to loot. I said I understand the perspective of a city council that has repeated attempted to restructure a malfunctional police department and is fed up. What you are doing is creating “either / or” constructs of opposition. You only have two categories “my view” and “not my view”. If you want to continue participating on the forum, you will need to step up and learn about nuances, consider different perspectives and learn. This does not mean you need to reject all your beliefs as being wrong or reject your life experience. It’s not about that. It’s not so much the content of your beliefs, it is the attitude holding those beliefs and how you are interacting with others. I have had this same conversation with users that were closed-minded and here to spread their scientific and materialistic ideology. There are plenty of other forums for that. Evolving can be uncomfortable at times. It’s not always easy work, yet the rewards are worth it. I want you do develop to your highest potential (whatever that is) and I am rooting for you.