Forestluv

This is a big deal. This move required a 2/3 majority vote in a deep southern state dominated by conservative Republicans. I also like how Beau frames Trump as a security stress test. Similar to how a company would hire an independent entity to be an opposition force to attack and stress test their security - to reveal underlying weaknesses. Similarly, Trump is stress testing the U.S. government and social structures which is revealing underlying weaknesses. It could actually make strengthen U.S. structures and ironically “Make America Great”. Just not how Trump envisions “Great”. The mainstream conservative republican position is becoming to remove confederate symbols. That is a huge shift.

Please don’t post gore or link to gore websites in this thread. E.g. videos of immolation, beheadings etc.

This is the area in which I think the current “discussion” should be. Imo, men like Robert E. Lee are outside the discussion area, yet men like TJ are still within it. TJ is being honored for his contributions to America (Such as writing the bull of rights), not for owning slaves. He is being honored in spite of owning slaves. This is very different than honoring a man for his efforts to perpetuate slavery. There will be examples of some men, like Thomas Jefferson, that were mixed bags that we will need to sort out. However, men like Robert E. Lee are not mixed bands, they are clear-cut. There are thousands of clear-cut symbols of white supremacy. Focusing on the mixed-bag examples is a distraction and can allow for the status quo to continue. Whenever white supremicists lose some ground, they go to the slippery slope argument to distract. They’ve been doing this for years and years. It slows down progress. It is a sneaky “All Statues Matter” framing to conflate clear-cut white supremicist statues with grey area white supremicist statues.

I’m observing something different.

My suggestion she is a puppetmaster was in jest. That isn’t her orientation. You are unaware of her intelligence. I’d recommend watching some of her longer in-depth interviews. She is one of the highest conscious members of Congress. Green is as high as congress goes in the U.S. for now.

“That’s the kind of slap that can change the weather outside” ?

Joe is AOC’s puppet. . .

@Nak Khid I’m cool with honoring Teddy Roosevelt for something good he contributed, yet I’d ditch that statue for the white supremacy. If the museum doesn’t want it, I’d be fine with recycling the material or giving it to someone wealthy for their private collection.

If I was the leader of the movement, I would set up some boundaries. I would go after the stuff that is clear cut and has already been debated ad nausea. I say all the public symbols honoring those that fought for the confederacy to continue slavery are donezo. All statues, monuments, names of schools etc. This will include thousands of symbols. It would take a lot of work and and would be an enormous release valve of racial tension. Yet I would not try to remove the history. Many of those statues and monuments would be appropriate in museums, battlefields and confederate graveyards. As well, the history should be taught in schools and educational documentaries are fine too. I would replace these symbols with new symbols honoring people that contributed positively to the United States. The above has no room for “discussion”. Yet as we go down the slope, I say the discussion begins. For example, what about statues and symbols of founding fathers like George Washington, Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson? This is a different category than above. These men are being honored for their contribution to creating the United States, such as writing the Bill of Rights. They are being honored for worthy contributions in spite owning slaves. They are not being honored for owning slaves, trafficking slaves or fighting for slavery. As a compromise, I’d say this category is ok for honoring, as long as it honors the positive contribution. A statue of George Washington writing the Declaration of Independence is much different than a statue of Washington reprimanding slaves. As well, Mt Rushmore shows flawed presidents, yet they aren’t being honored fo their flaws. Plus Mt Rushmore is in the middle of nowhere. It’s not as prominent. How often does a regular kid pass by MT Rushmore? I would focus on the thousands of confederate symbols that people see everyday - in their parks, at their work, the street signs, their schools. In the south, one can see 10 symbols of white supremacy in an average day. I’d clean that out over the next couple years.

Great resources. . . I had been going back and forth between INTP and INFP, yet the more I learn the more I’m resonating with INFP. I few misconceptions I had: I thought I was more INTP because I think a lot, I’m not that creative, my career is in science and I’m not a very emotional person. Yet the more I read about INFP the more I’m recontextualizing. For example, I’m not “creative” in the sense of creating art or music. I have more of an internal imaginative creativity, with no output. I’ll be hiking in nature and go into creative dreamscapes as creative as any book, movie, painting I’ve seen. Yet there is no output. The hike ends and that’s it. I usually don’t feel a desire for it to be manifested by writing a book or painting. I didn’t think that this counted as “creative”. . . Also, I don’t think the “feeling” part is just about experiencing feelings - like getting emotional a lot - angry, crying etc. A lot of my “feeling” component is more like a sensing, an essence. Like when I watch a movie, I often relate and get immersed into the “essence” of the characters, rather than analyzing the plot and nitpicking about how some things are illogical or unrealistic. . . So even though I think a lot, it seems the thinking is more an expression of an underlying “essence” and “creativity”, rather than simply thinking analytically for the sake of thinking analytically. Similar to how I use math. I don’t use math for the sake of engaging math. I use math as a tool for an underlying purpose that has more value.

This would be extremely difficult to do on a large scale. Here is just one challenge from within the Christian community: Methodists in my state are arguing over how to treat LGBTQ. Some Conservative Methodists are saying LGBTQ should not be allowed in the church community. Moderate Methodists are saying LGBTQ should be allowed in the church community, yet not allowed to be Pastors. Progressive Methodists want LGBTQ members to be allowed to become pastors. Each group is interpreting scripture differently and wants different rules. The Methodists are splitting up over this is my state. Imagine if my state was a full “Methodist State”. They have argued about this for years and will not compromise. They are now splitting up into different groups. Would they split into different Methodist states? And how would that work? They are all mixed together. Various Conservative, Moderate and Progressive Methodists have bought houses, work jobs, send their kids to school. They are all inter-twined. And who would get the nice parts of the states and who gets the crappier parts of the state? It would be super hard to segregate them all into three separate mini states.

I can see that desire, yet I think it would be very difficult to do. Even if we created a Christian town, there is still interactions with public resources. It would be very difficult to have a fully autonomous town or state. Theoretically, it can somewhat be done on a small scale, such as Native American Indian reservations and Amish communities have a lot of autonomy, yet it would be very difficult to do on a large scale. The world is too inter-connected. As well, it would be difficult to get all the Christians in the town to agree on all policies. There are many different interpretations of scriptures, morals and values. It’s hard to create and maintain one set of Christian interpretations, principals and rules that everyone agrees upon. It can be done on a small scale, like within a church community. Yet it would be very difficult to do on a large scale.

I’m not sure if this is literal. I read that Florida recently re-shut down bars in an effort to mitigate the spread of the coronavirus. To me, the temporary shutting down of bars is an effort to mitigate viral spread. I can see how some would perceive it as a loss of freedom, yet I don’t see it that way. An analogy I would use is that when lightening strikes at a sports event, the event is temporarily postponed. If lightening continues to strike, the sporting event is canceled. I see this as an effort to mitigate the risk of lightening strikes, which promotes the safety and health of the community. I don’t see it as stripping people of their freedom.

This is the idea of private space. We have private space at home, churches and private colleges. Are you saying that you want public space to be converted into private space for Christians? For example, creating a town in which only Christians are allowed to live? And any non-Christian visitors would need to obey the Christian rules of the town? . If so, would this Christian town have autonomy from a federal government?

I’ve had similar experiences. When I was long-distance running, I would go into deep flow states - yet usually not “here”. Sometimes, my mind would create deep dreamscapes after running about 6 miles and my body would be automatic. One day, I went out for a two hour run and went into one of these dreamscapes. I suddenly realized I was in a strange town and thought “Where am I?”. I looked at my watch and I had been running for over two hours. I asked a local person “Where am I? And which direction is my hometown”. It turns out I was in a small town about 15 miles away from my hometown. I ended running about five hours that day.

There will be a continuum of what society views as appropriate and inappropriate. For now, most people agree that statues honoring men that fought to enslave people should be taken down. Yet this can be pushed further. For example, Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, yet didn’t fight to perpetuate slavery. That’s not what he is being honored for. He is being honored for things like adding the Bill of Rights to the U.S. constitution. That is an important distinction. White Jesus statues is not as clear cut. I wish progressives would focus on changing the clear cut stuff right now. Like removing the confederate flags and statues from public spaces as well as changing biases in institution, such as hiring practices. In terms of Jesus statues, I would say it depends on context. For example, I would say a Jesus statue would be appropriate on the campus of a private Christian University. It is appropriate on church property. It gets more complicated as we enter the public sphere. Would erecting a Jesus statue be appropriate on the campus of a public University? This makes me uncomfortable because a power play enters. . . The narrative that “This is a Christian Nation”. If there was a Jesus statue erected on a public campus, I would prefer it be a collection of spiritual statues: for example Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad and Shiva together. Rather than removing a public statue of Jesus, how would you feel about adding in other religious statues with the Jesus statue? For example, a statue of Buddha and a statue of Shiva next to the Jesus statue?

I also don’t like the terms “weak” or “strong” mind. I’d prefer something like “active mind” or and “engaged mind”. I’ve also received some of the rewiring benefits you spoke of, such as being able to quiet the mind (relatively) and pay better attention to what is happening now. Yet from my observations, some minds seem to naturally resonate with this better. Like learning how to hit a baseball. When I was a kid, I sucked at it. I was a good outfielder, yet I sucked at batting and struck out a lot. With practice, I went from total suckage to so-so suckage. Yet most of the other boys picked it up much faster than I did. They were just good at it. For me, I learned how to dribble a soccer ball much better. It was natural for me. As well, I think it also depends on the “goal”. If the goal of meditation is to quiet the mind and gain insights, I suck at it. Yet if the goal of mediation is to gain insights through creative lucid spaces, I’m super good at it.

@Consept Yes. Freedom and god are prevalent in America and there are all sorts of cocktail mixes - some quite bizarre.

@Nak Khid The problem with that Lincoln statue is not Lincoln. The problem is the dis-empowered subordinate black man and white supremacy. That symbolIsm should not be honored in public spaces. Yes, it was a reality of the times and important history. For historical and educational purposes it’s fine in the context of museums, battlefields, schools and cemeteries. It should be taught, similar to how Germany teaches about Nazism. On the opposite side, the Chinese government has censored all references and access to how the government open fired on protestors in Tiananmen square. Younger people are literally ignorant of that event. Journalists have asked people their thoughts on the Tiananmen Square incident and people are like “Huh, what incident?”. They literally don’t know it occurred. That is not right. We still want to teach the history, even the ugly history. That’s really important. Yet statures honoring white supremacy should not be in shared public spaces. An alternative statue of Lincoln without a dis-empowered black person is more appropriate.

I grew up in a fundamental Christian home in which faith, beliefs, tradition and culture were very important. I know what it feels like to have others dismiss that, tell me I’m wrong, or try to take it away from me. . . Yet I’ve also come to understand public spaces are shared spaces for everyone’s faiths, beliefs, traditions and cultures. It’s not fair for me to say “Christmas only” and get upset with “Happy Holidays” in public spaces, even if it feels like the tradition of Christmas is getting watered down, because their are people who celebrate other holidays or no holiday at all. Similarly, it would be unfair for me to say that the 10 commandments should be displayed in public schools or that gay people shouldn’t be allowed to get married.

@Vipassana In terms of mitigation, for the most part, health care professionals have tried to be a good example in social distancing and wearing masks. And they are public ally encouraging it. Nit-picking and splitting hairs isn’t helpful. It would be like criticizing the doctor who is about to operate on you that he only washed his hands for 18 seconds, rather than 20+ seconds. Yes, technically he can do a better job - yet the doctor is on your side trying to help you. Nit-picking undermines his efforts. The bigger concern is those that are trying to undermine and sabotage mitigation efforts.

I think they should be moved to museums, confederate cemeteries and battlefields. The history of slavery, the Civil War, Jim Crow laws, Civil rights etc. should be taught. Not only should the history of the confederacy be taught, the motivation of many white people to create statues honoring the confederacy should be taught. The vast majority of these statues were not built right after the civil war as an olive branch to the losing side. These statues were created decades later during specific time periods in which black people were gaining rights. The statues were built during reconstruction, Jim Crow and the civil rights eras. However, statues that honor men for their efforts to maintain slavery do not belong in public spaces. I don’t want my public park to have a massive statue of a man that led the fight to enslave people - no more than I would want a statue of Hitler in my public park.

It depends on context and the person. If my goal is to weed my garden, meditation is a waste of time. Meditation is not going to remove the weeds in my garden, even if I meditate on having a weed-free garden. In this context, I’ve just wasted 30min. sitting on a cushion. Yet in another context, meditation could actually be helpful. A person could be so stressed-out and pre-occupied that they can’t weed efficiently. A 30min. meditation may seem like a waste of time, yet it helps this person calm their mind, become fully present and get in the zone. They become an Olympic level weeder and finish must faster, even with the 30min. meditation. And they enjoyed it. These are just two contextualizations, we could create hundreds more. Some people have minds that are well-suited for meditation. They can sit, become grounded, relax the mind and have deep insights. Other minds are not as well-suited for the “goals” of meditation. For example, during meditation my mind can go into creative lucid dream spaces. All of a sudden the bell rings and I’m like “Wow, did an hour go by already?”. I was told by teachers not to do this and to break this habit. That it’s not what meditation is for. Yet that it was my mind does. It would be like telling me not to dream at night.

For sure. I was raised in a conservative environment. That fear is not my default, yet I can access it if I want to. It’s almost like a language I learned as a child. I haven’t used it for 30 years, yet I can still remember. For example, I was watching a couple victory speeches of progressive black candidates that recently won primary contests in New York. My default resonance was that of inspiration and hope for a more just and equal future. Yet I can still tap in and experience the white conservative fear. The was one point in which he said “I’m going to congress and I’m going to be a problem to the status quo”. I was able to tap into remnants of my conservative conditioning. He was a black man gaining power that wanted to change the rules, change the influence of white people, take away white culture, my way of life. For about a minute, I experienced fear. He became the “other” against “me” and “my” culture’s way of life, a threat to the power we have in making and enforcing the rules. After about a minute, it dissolved. It was a peak into that mindset, perception and experience. I know what it’s like. It’s a very real, powerful thing.

This is a critical point. I can see how black people are deeply frustrated, fed up and want change. They are tired of empty promises and a system that refuses to change. I think a lot of people are waking up to underlying systemic biases and are becoming open to more substantive changes. Yet most of the public is not ready for a revolution, even if that revolution is peaceful. Bernie Sanders loss showed this. If progressives and blm push to hard, they are going to terrify conservatives and a lot of independents. Slogans like “defund the police”, “burn down the system” and “revolution” is terrible messaging. It scares half the people in the country. Of course they want to create a distorted scary caricature of Hawk. They have not interest in having a real discussion about the issues. They want to create a caricature that terrifies people and then Trump can become their savior and protector. I don’t agree with everything being proposed by protestors. For example, I think some protestors are going to far in “defunding the police”. Yet to me, the discussion is not wether the police should be restructured, the discussion is about to what extent the police should be restructured.