Flix

Hi Leo & Community, One year ago I did an Enlightenment Intensive with Peter Ralston. Beginners (like me) were supposed to use the question "who am I?", whereas the people who already "got who they are" used "what am I?". Ever since I've been highly confused as to 1. How can you "get" who you are (a few guys in the workshop seemingly "got" it, while I did not). I think I have a good intellectual understanding of the concept no-self, and so far I thought the only thing you can "get" is that there's no one at home. But apparently those guys "got" themselves and the facilitators had some test question for them to verify it. What does this feel like and how can I unlock it? 2. How does the "answer" to the who question differ to the what question? My vague idea is that "who" still refers to a person while "what" refers rather to consciousness? (Facilitators there refused to answer this question as "it would not help you". But I feel my confusion about it doesn't help me either.) 3. Would you advise to continue contemplating "who am I" for myself until I "get" it or rather use "what am I" despite not having "gotten" anything so far? Thanks Best regards from Munich Felix

@Space @Leo Gura Thanks, that's helpful!

@Leo Gura Thanks Leo, that helps me a lot in practical terms regarding how to proceed. (Yet I'd really like to know what it is that these people "get" when they "get who they are". Any ideas? In the workshop it was talked about as a rather small realization compared to the "what"-realization, but nonetheless a maybe necessary step towards it before you can "work with the what-question".)

Thanks, I've watched them multiple times

My thoughts about the topic from a while ago: I do believe everything that is happening in the physical world (including thoughts, mystical states, getting enlightened, ...) can be explained by laws of physics and is therefore not pre-scripted, but also not "free", but running on its own. That doesn't contradict that there is a more fundamental layer of being/consciousness "behind" it all that you can become conscious of, but this "becoming conscious" (= reprogramming your brain [physically] towards "more" consciousness) also happens in the physical world.

MUC hier

TL;DR: Who else feels that figuring out the free will illusion helps a lot on the path of enlightenment and in life in general? (Please no "(no) free will" discussion here, there are other threads. For those doubting no-free-will I recommend "Free Will" by Sam Harris.) I have understood that there is no free will. That due to physical nature laws, everything is determined, right up to the tiniest movements of the tiniest particles. Cause and effect. (Some quantum physicists claim that true randomness on subatomic particles exists. But that wouldn't allow for free will either. So I stick to the belief that life in this universe is entirely determined.) I have internalised this to a degree that I really can feel it big part of the time. I see it in the actions and behaviours of the people around me, and I feel it inside of me when I'm doing things and when I am really mindful. I can hear myself talking, hear the words coming out of my mouth (even communicating well-conceived thoughts to others), feel my body doing something, and I totally know: This isn't me talking/doing, the body is doing it itself. I can put myself in a role of a mere observer. This insight helps me a lot. I feel I'm becoming more compassionate and understanding with others. I beat myself up less for the things I did in the past. I have less regret. I know that I and others couldn't have done anything differently, not even slightly. I also don't feel as bad anymore about feeling some way, for I know that at this moment I can only feel as I feel. E.g. I don't feel bad about being sad or angry any more, I just feel sad or angry. Thoughts like "I have to do this or that or to succeed in this or that" are getting rarer. I have a lot less fears and worries about the future. I know it will come exactly as it has to. There's less resistance and more accepting the moment as it is, since it could not be any different. My thoughts about the connection to enlightenment/meditation/mindfulness: Without free will, everything is less personal. All is objectively one. The universe is one big chain reaction, so every human is part of it. No free will means no separation. That's what I'm feeling even subjectively more and more. Doing becomes less important, it's more about being and committing to the flow of life. As Leo says in on video: "Existence doesn't need you to be any different than you currently are." Even with the perception of no free will, stuff is happening only in the present moment. The present moment is they best and only thing there is. So it's all about awareness, feeling and enjoying everything in the moment in its full intensity. Lean back and enjoy the show. Doing something mindfully gets a new meaning: I don't do it or control it, I just observe and experience myself doing it and arising feelings with full awareness. One thing I had to think a little bit about before I understood it: Enlightenment, too, happens within determinism. Some part within you (underlying the cause and effect principle) enters a more conscious state. Whether or not it does is itself determined and out of your control. The same goes for whether or not you meditate. Also, the physical elements of meditation run themselves, of course. Your breath breathes automatically (deterministically) for you, no need (or real possibility) to control it. You just observe it. But both meditation and enlightenment do connect you with being, which seems to be in another dimension, since in the state of being there is no doing, no cause and effect, it's pure experience. Therefore determinism is simply no question. You could say by entering a meditative or enlightened state, a part of you (the being, experiencing part, not the monkey chatter part ) exits the deterministic principle. Just that it isn't in your control whether or not or what time or how often you do meditate. You can just "hope" that you (your mind, environment, the universe etc.) are determined to become more conscious, meditate a lot and in the best case become enlightened. After internalizing this view you can use the question "Who am I when I'm not even in control of my body and brain?" in your self-inquiry work. I just feel that all this is a lonely path. Almost everyone seems to love the illusion of free will. It is being swept under the rug by almost everyone, even spiritual teachers. I think it's because the illusion is "good", the subjective feeling of being able to act freely is strong. Therefore I fall back myself often. Also understanding that reflecting, discussing, thinking about it is itself determined makes it harder to grasp it. And people fear giving up their "freedom". And they like to have "control" over themselves and their lives. And society is free will oriented and teaches that you have free will. In this terms almost everyone seems to be an esoteric, believing in fantasy and magic. People run down religion and homeopathy (justifiably so), but sustain the biggest delusion themselves. So I find it hard to talk to people about it. In everyday life I feel different, like I'm on one of these silent dancing parties and every one is hearing the same music on their headphones, it's just me who is dancing to some completely different music, yet we are in the same room. And even though it makes me more understanding and forgiving in general: Sometimes I have to be attentive not to feel superior or think "you fools" when I see others acting totally unconsciously. I then have to remind myself: They cannot do otherwise. Is there anyone else who has as deeply internalized as me and feels it helps them? Anyone from Munich (Germany)? Leo, if you read this, have you really internalised that everything is determined? That all people around you act exactly as they have to, every second? I know you mention no-free-will briefly in your enlightenment FAQ and have a whole episode about it, but don't you think concentrating on this in the enlightenment videos even more could help especially on the path to enlightenment? Maybe it's not even necessary for enlightenment, but I think it helps a lot to stop living in this huge illusion (I mean you don't really stop living in it, you just become fully aware of it). I could even imagine that enlightenment comes as a by-product. Btw, just coming back from my 1st solo retreat in the mountains if Austria. It was amazing, thanks for the inspiration!

I like to meditate in my noon break. I like to believe that it frees me from the stress and worries of the morning and simultaneously makes me fit me for the rest of the day.