Philip

@Socrates And that's because I am.

Thanks for that. You're right. I definitely try to convince people. I definitely post for rep more than truth. I definitely don't believe in myself in a healthy way. I definitely don't know if you really are an asshole or if you're just better than me at being authentic. This is definitely one of my main problems in life. However, I hope you don't think you're actually helping people with your strategy. From a honesty and authenticity point of view, your strategy is great. From an efficiency point of view, it kind of sucks. You close most people's minds more than you open them. Most of them forget all about you in an instant because they don't have time to listen to people they don't trust. At least your strategy works like magic with people like me. Because I actually want to understand your opinion, especially if it makes me fucking uncomfortable or angry the first time I read it. So If you have any hurtful comment for me, don't hesitate. I can't wait for that kind of pain to strike my ego.

@Amplituda Ha ! finally someone who disagrees ! Thanks for coming That's a good point. You're right. We probably met so many close-minded people in our life that we generalize everyone as such. And that's probably why we developed a methodology that is suited for convincing even the most stubborn idiot. Maybe we don't have to look out that much for close-mindedness on this forum. I think this is the most open-minded community I've seen yet. @abrakamowse is a good example of this, if you look at the beginning of this thread. That right here seems to be the core of our disagreement. Personally I've made enormous progress in convincing close-minded people during those last 4 years or so. And the main techniques I've developed are: Asking honest, humble and open-minded questions in order to really understand the other person's opinion. Instead of just waiting for my turn to talk and trying to teach my opinion, like most people do. Although sometimes it results in me being convinced by them, instead of the other way around. Hehe... Doubting myself a lot. Not talking as if I was the ultimate holder truth, but rather as a student of life who just found a new study buddy. If I feel negative emotions towards someone, talking about that instead of talking about how wrong the person is. Not picking on details I don't like in their world view. Focusing on their main argument instead. And not changing subjects until I understand their point of view a little more. I humbly suggest you try those tricks just one last time before saying that close-minded people are THAT hard to convince.

@Parki Thought can contradict. Reality can't. Your contradictions are a sign that your thought don't align with reality enough. The true question is, how aligned can thoughts get ?

@Socrates You didn't answer my question at all, by the way. But here you just explained the issue perfectly: I would give you rep, but I spent the 30 ones I had today hehe. Now just tell me if this is a good beginner ressource for learning about the AQAL Map: http://www.kenwilber.com/Writings/PDF/IntroductiontotheIntegralApproach_GENERAL_2005_NN.pdf If not, just give me your favorite one and I'll edit my comment accordingly.

@Henri Dude ! What you said is exactly what I thought and didn't say out loud yet ! Just this morning I had the idea of creating a topic designed to ask @Leo Gura about his own doubts. His own struggles. His own blind spots. It seems like he never makes himself vulnerable enough for us to try and help him. Maybe that's his greatest problem. Also maybe it's necessary for building a viable self-help community. I don't know hehe, but such a thread would surely be quite interesting if Leo dares to play along... I already talked about this here: The way you said it is pretty awesome. Now I'm a transhumanist, so it's obvious to me that he shouldn't spend the next several decades in a cave. Because I believe humanity will change in such a fundamental and radical way, and if we don't have strong, moral and noble leaders like Leo to guide us, the chances of a robot invasion wiping out humanity are too high. But I think we can create a positive technological singularity if we can elevate our level of consciousness high enough and fast enough. And Leo's teachings are the best tool I found for that purpose yet.

Hehe I totally get what you mean. Like I said on the other thread, I really am tempted sometimes to just burst in and just throw in the wisest sentence i can. Which I think would be along those lines: "Maybe yes. Maybe no. Maybe both yes and no. Maybe neither yes nor no. Anyway, words make no sense. I'll just go and meditate now. See ya!" But the problem is: Yes I'm able to make those "wise" words come out of my mouth. But it doesn't feel like I fully understand them yet. There's certainly a part of me that likes to think I'm already there, but the rest of me thinks it's pretty naive to think so. It's really hard (or impossible) to be sure about what level of consciousness you're at. Maybe the only clue you have is the number of painful ego-shattering epiphanies you had in your life. And maybe that clue's not even as reliable as it looks. If the universe had a voice, I'm sure he would be laughing his ass off over my despair...

Just for the sake of argument, I'll use spiral dynamics as a reference. If you don't like it, please just bear with me anyway. Let's say someone thinks he's Orange (level 5), gives an Orange advice but can't really relate to the Blue (level 4) person's situation. Are you saying this person is not Orange but rather Red (level 3) ? Or something along those lines ? Are you saying that the mere fact of not understanding a level automatically means you're not there yet ? I don't have a definitive answer. But I surely had moments where I couldn't relate to someone because they seemed to be at an inferior level. Later, I learned to understand them and accept them a little more, but I still don't think I've ever been below them. On the other hand, sometimes I learned to relate to someone I saw as inferior before, only to realize I was the inferior one in the situation. So I definitely think your argument is true most of the time. But what do you think ?

Did you talk about that somewhere else on the forum? Give us a link or just summarize it. I'm probably not the only one who's intrigued right now

@abrakamowseFuck you man ! I want to be pissed off at you but you're too nice hehe. I'll start a topic and we can discuss this. I'm really intrigued by your views. Maybe you just operate at exactly the level I need in order to grow myself. We'll see !

@Will @abrakamowse The way I interact on this forum is different from Abrakamowse. First of all, I try to put myself in the other person's shoes. I try to remember a moment in my own life where I had similar struggles. And also I try tu guess from what level of consciousness the person is operating. For example, a very low level would be a victim mindset. A slightly higher level would be a competitive growth mindset. After that, a compassion mindset. After that, a radically open-minded mindset, etc... You get the point ! Those levels are similar to graves model and spiral dynamics. After that, what I try to do is I try to point out what kind of advice would have helped me the most at the time where I had a similar struggle. Or what insight helped me work on that problem at the time. And usually, the advice I come up with is always just a little bit more advanced than where the person currently is. It's just a bit too high consciousness for the person to have seen it right away, but still high enough for the person's brain to have to stretch itself in order to get to the core of my advice. It like giving food to a cat. If the piece of food is always close to his nose, then you can make the cat follow you for miles. But if you're a hundred feet away, just forget it. The cat won't move a paw. And that's the mistake I saw Abrakamowse and other folks doing a lot on the forum. At least, your advice was good. It was truthful, wise and it was the right level of thinking for a bunch of other readers. And at least, you didn't go a level lower hehe. You didn't say something like: "Don't give a fuck if they're offended by what you think. Life is a jungle. They're weak and they deserve the suffering" or "It is God's will if their couple brings them suffering. It's all ok, as long as they don't fuck before marriage!" Do you guys want me to start a new topic for that ? So that we don't pollute this thread by diverting too much ?

You know what I think is pointless ? Posting enlightenment level notions in a conversation that is clearly operating at a lower level than that. There's already a whole forum section for talking about enlightenment. No need to make it spill out into conversations where it clearly doesn't belong. And sorry for ranting against you. You're not the only one, nor the worse. And I usually like your input, but please try to read the atmosphere and get attuned to it. Your comments will probably be more relevant and helpful.

@Galyna Haha mind blown. Ok let's get out of the frame of time... Let's see... I see two possibilities for how time could be non-existent: Your past and future don't exist. There is only the present moment and all the rest is just a figment of your imagination. You might be familiar with this one because @Leo Gura talks about it a lot. Every moment in the timeline of the universe is always happening. Every event happens at once. The universe is still. It seems to us that it's moving. It seems to us that we experience only one moment at time, and that those moment are ordered in a coherent way without any kind of skipping or rewinding. But that is all part of a persistent illusion created by the very structure of human memory. What we perceive is a three dimensional world (up-down, right-left, forward-backward) which evolves and progress along a timeline (before-after). But maybe the universe is not progressing at all. Maybe this timeline is nothing else than another pair of directions that our universe allows. Maybe it is the same kind of still and imperturbable dimension than the three spatial ones. Yeah, the theory I presented there is in contradiction with Leo's enlightenment theories. That's because I can only ever speak at one level of consciousness at a time. And for that particular comment, I adopted a level of consciousness that is lower than enlightenment, which created the contradiction. If I go to the highest level of consciousness I can, my most advanced and profound answer would probably look like : "External reality both exists and doesn't. It neither exists nor doesn't. Words make no sense. I'll go meditate now. See ya!" But it would seem out of context and unnecessary, and honestly it pisses me off every time people talk like this on the forum They probably don't help anyone with those comments. I can't believe they get reputation for that useless misplaced enlightenment jibber jabber

What you feel may or may not matter to them. Their situation may or may not be of your business. Telling them how it is may or may not be pointless. I'm glad that you care about what they feel and that you're able to question your own behavior. That's great ! And don't forget that the main goal of sharing your emotions is not about the other person. It's about you. It's about getting in touch with your emotions. It's about knowing yourself. It's about feeling good about yourself because you speak authentically. It's about being vulnerable to them. It's about accepting the feelings that arise inside of you, no matter how "unhealthy" they might be. But most importantly... It's about your alignment with truth. Please don't forget that.

@Lorcan First of all, keep up the good work. I see so much potential in you, it's refreshing to see. I'm just fired up with hope for humanity right now. Congratulations for what you already have going on at your age. Secondly, there's an actualized.org video that suits you situation perfectly: I don't remember if he talks about that specifically, but I love the part where you say you wrote out a plan for society from the ground up. Personally, when I was 17 I was making lots of detailed plans, diagrams and theories about where society should be heading, about the most fundamental purpose of my life or even about the existential nature of reality and metaphysics. Not only did it help me practice my creativity, reasoning, writing, researching, speaking, visualizing and ambition, but it also helped me learn a lot about myself, what I want out of life and what I'm able to accomplish if every single fiber of my being is devoted to real growth, significance and wisdom. I suggest you keep on making plans. I actually can't believe how much those plans I've made have been a self-fulfilling prophecy over the years. Even 6 years later, I find myself being constantly driven exactly towards the perfection, consistency and ambition that my plans were designed to reflect. I can't ever thank myself enough for that. I sure have my problems, flaws and doubts, but ultimately I found out what my life was about at 17 and now I can never forget it. Nor can I be totally distracted from it. I'm even getting emotional as I'm writing this. I'm barely retaining my tears because I'm in a restaurant right now hehe :_) This is, beyond any doubt, one of the best decisions I've made in my entire life. Don't dismiss it. Please. And finally I need to deeply thank you for being here, but mostly for dedicating to the one and unique thing that's the most important and meaningful in life, which is just that : Your life.

@Will Your intention towards them was probably pure and noble. I think you should discuss those kinds of problems with the people you love. Your mistake is in the way you told them. It's a highly inefficient approach (as you may have already noticed), which means it goes totally against your original pure intention. Instead of explaining them the issue you've noticed or what they could do about it, try and explain them what you feel. If you're sad when you see them, tell them. If you're annoyed, frustrated or impatient about their situation, tell them that. This way of communicating is not only more accurate and truthful, but it is also less aggressive and easier for them to digest. And in order to be even more truthful and respectful, remember what the real problem is. The problem is more than just their couple. The problem is their couple AND the negative emotion you feel towards it. And I hope you're open-minded enough to see you don't really actually know which part of this is the most problematic. Are they more wrong for being together ? Or are you more wrong for over-reacting to it ? There is always a slight possibility of you being the one who's not developed enough to emotionally accept the situation. No matter why or how that could be, it is ALWAYS a possibility to consider. And integrating that sense of doubt and open-mindedness to your conversation will greatly improve the curative impact your words have on the people you love. At first, it might feel like you're being dishonest to them, but if you really are open-minded and you also really love them, then this approach is probably the closest you can get to honesty and integrity in your communication.

@Truth That looks like it's a good idea, but to be honest I did't really get it totally. It's too abstract to me right now. Could you give an example of a structure you've used ?

It's really a good thing for him to be on this path. He should be proud of himself. Personally, I don't think his improvement has a lot to do with your relation now. I think you have been together for so long, and you have been dysfunctional together for so long that when you meet each other, you become past versions of yourselves. Your vision of how you behave in a couple is limited, because you only revisit the same relationship over and over. You're not up to date. You're lagging on an previous you. If you seriously dated other men, you would get a chance to start anew and rediscover how much of a good partner you can really be. If however you really want to stay with him, then I suggest you tell him exactly that. Without nagging him. Without blame, judgement or critique. Just tell him how you feel. And If you're afraid he might leave you because of how you feel, then tell him exactly that too. Tell him you're afraid he leaves you again. Are you doubting that his efforts to improve are genuine and pure ? then tell him that... At this point, what do you have to lose ? You already went through worse discussions than this anyway... It's just that the conversation I'm suggesting will reveal lots of important details concerning your current problem I think. So good luck with that, and tell me how it went !

@NoOne The question makes no sense. From a spiritual point of view, sleep does not exist because it is not experienced. Except when you dream, sleep is nothing to you. It never happens. But what I just gave was not a helpful answer at all, so I'll take another route... Sleep is just another proof of the illusion of the self, when you think about it. During a normal night of sleep, your brain goes through a lot of micro-structural changes that literally transform the person you are. The person you were before going to sleep is killed and it leaves space for a new person in the morning. You always only have an illusory identification with the story of your life. Because you weren't there to experience it. Someone else was inhabiting your body at that moment. It's like if killed you, shuffled all your atoms around, and then replaced your atoms in a way that you become alive again. Would that be death ? Yeah... Could that happen one night without you noticing it at all ? I don't know... Would that be so different from what sleep already is ? No, actually... So to me, sleep is death. And if you're afraid of dying, you should also be afraid of going to bed tonight. P.S : Good night, sleep tight ! ;D

First of all, those 3 techniques are amazing ! Good thinking there. You have both the abstract and the concrete observed through an open yet critical mind. Just wonderful. Secondly, I once had an insight that might help you here. I was thinking about measuring my level of consciousness. Like how much I was aware and focused on what's really important in life. But I realized that couldn't be measured at all. Because I don't know how much I don't know about life. I'm totally unconscious of what I'm unconscious of. I just can't know what I'm missing or in what traps I'm stuck. Because there's a huge part of me that's invisible by definition. But then I thought : Hey that's not so bad. There is still something I can measure. I can measure the progress I'm making. Or to be more exact, I can measure the number of times in my life where I had epiphanies that changed the way I think about life. Usually those epiphanies also came with their fair share of negative emotions too. Growth doesn't go without struggle, it seems. So if I apply my insight to your question, I'd say : You can't measure accurately how much of an abstract thinker, concrete thinker, open-minded thinker and critical thinker you are. But you can know how much progress you made in those areas. By counting how many times you profoundly and emotionally realized how much of a better thinker you could become right now or over time. My description of how it feels to increase one's awareness is still weak though. I can't really give it more substance because I haven't experienced it enough yet. But I suggest you search for those painful ego-shattering epiphanies that change the way you see life.

I'm grateful you can find good intentions and also potential in everyone if you just dig deep enough.

@SaynotoKlaus Mastery, by George Leonard https://www.amazon.ca/Mastery-Keys-Success-Long-Term-Fulfillment/dp/0452267560/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1459047682&sr=8-1&keywords=mastery+george+leonard It seems to fit your description perfectly. Plus, it's Leo's Top #1 Book ever, so...

Hi, I just noticed when i don't get positive reputation on the forum for a while, I hastily write something that can give me quick reputation. The worst I can do at that point is to give negative reputation to people, hoping that it will give me the pleasure I'm looking for. The best thing I can do is to give myself some time to feel the disappointment of not getting enough reputation, and then write something more authentic. Also, it's time to ask myself why I play the reputation game in the first place. What am I running towards ? Kind regards, Phil

@JevinR Congrats for buying the Course. It's really worth it, i think you'll never want a single penny back. First, I suggest not to listen to it in the shower, except for the bonus audio reviews at the end. Or the first 35+ theoretical videos, but just if you also sit down and watch those videos on a screen at some point. You have to make those videos sacred and important, otherwise you'll decrease their efficiency. Now I guess you meant "top 10 values" in your topic's title. Unfortunately, you probably can't connect totally with your authentic higher self right now. Because you have limiting beliefs, social conditioning, cognitive biases, false information and low consciousness mindsets that are lurking around your mind, pretending to be healthy authentic thoughts. And you can't make the difference between those authentic and inauthentic beliefs and desires. That's why it's called subconscious, it's because it is just not visible in your consciousness in any way. It's non-existent to you. But, with lots of time, effort, honesty and emotional courage you can make those thoughts and needs become more conscious. Through journaling, affirmations, visualizations, contemplation, strategic planning, shadow work, enlightenment work, self-help, therapy, positive psychology, meditation, changing social circle, changing habits, changing hobbies. But if you want a single exercise that is very specifically focused towards reaching your authentic self, then just follow the process Leo has set up for you in the Course. It's cleverly constructed, it's detailed, it's complete and it's well organized. So just trust the process. Suspend your doubts for a little while and marinate in the course. I personally think that's a clever way of extracting the most wisdom out of a course : emotional investment. Also, your values are always changing. And you have to write down the definition of each of your 10 values at some point in the Course. So those definitions will also be changing. But short definitions like these can never be precise as you said. My only advice would be to define your values in a way that leaves a bit of wiggle room. What I mean is that if you happen to change a few words, and then it becomes incompatible with the rest of the values list, then it's probably a inauthentic value that just sounded nice to you at the moment. For example, your definition of Honesty will change a lot as you become more honest. It will become less naive over time, more mature. So if another of your values is Politeness, make sure it leaves some room for Honesty to grow the immense ramifications it can have in one's life. Maybe Politeness doesn't even belong in your list anymore. Which leaves a lot of wiggle room for your Honesty to evolve and mature. I hope it makes sense to you. Tell me what you think. And also good luck and have fun with the Course !

@Henri You can't just not talk about yoga for once, can you ?