Philip

@likhil Like if we find God. We'll just torture him to know who created him

Do you know that for sure? Thinking that only biology can create consciousness is as far fetched and unsupported a claim as the existence of the christian god, for example. We can't ever prove it's a false claim. But really believing it's a true claim is totally absurd and random. In this example, Neill would be analogous to an atheist, if you will.

@Socrates Yep. We could eliminate death. We could slow our passage of time by speeding up our computation. We could live inside virtual worlds that we can customize just by the power of will. We could add any kind of sensory input to our experience, as well as any kind of output to our body. We could adjust the level of emotional satisfaction we feel towards every single thing you could think of, and more. One day, we might even forget what animals, trees and rocks are, if we decide to fundamentally change the nature of subjective experience to such a radical degree. Like I said : And what comes out is pure unrestricted creativity and bliss. Nothing like the petty (but realistic) human ambitions @Leo Gura portrayed, up to now at least.

You're probably just giving a special value to "natural" things for no reason. It's not because something comes from nature that it's better. For example, what's the difference between a "natural" molecule found in nature and a "synthetic" molecule created in a lab? There's none. They're both the same molecule, with the same atoms. And "synthetic" humans could have exactly the same molecules as "natural" humans do. And the distinction between the two makes no sense, because humans are natural and it's natural for us to create technology. Then just keep your consciousness and emotions. I won't try to get rid of those either. It seems stupid to do so. Yeah, if you program it that way. Which I don't encourage at all. It would be horribly boring. Natural. Not exclusively natural, though.

@Socrates As brain scans become more powerful, our knowledge of the brain becomes more accurate. Pretty soon it could be so accurate we can simulate the brain with some new powerful computer. Which means we can make synthetic brain parts that are compatible with our biological ones. Then if we change parts of our brain one by one, each night for example, then we'll feel like we're fluidly growing in mental capacities. We won't feel disoriented by sudden mental changes, or feel like dying or anything strange. And one morning, we'll wake up and nothing biological will be left in us. Nothing created by evolution itself. From that point, we're going to drive our own evolution. We can become self-reprogramming neural networks or nano-robot swarms or whatever. We'll decide. That's if we don't get killed by world war III, a meteor, or if the laws of physics don't suddenly decide to crash. Of course.

@Socrates I'm talking about becoming advanced robots, dude. Not the meatbags we are now. We could never build a planet as simple humans.

I try to read lots of Leo's comments on the forum and on youtube. In a sense they're even more valuable than the videos, because you can relate to the person who receives the comment and then the advice can become more personal this way.

It's not the obvious to most. Most people know that "most people" should watch out for their ego and be more conscious. But most people don't think they personally have to watch out for their own ego. Most people think they're more conscious than most people. And I also do. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_blind_spot

@Socrates Forget about planets. Planets are small random grains of sand in the universe. We can create astronomical structures incredibly more practical and complex than that if we try. Yep. Or all humans merge, we become a black hole and have the galaxy fly around us. I personally aim for this one.

@Natasha Hehe good one. Maybe I'm just trying to be controversial here, or maybe I'm under a placebo effect, but I think Socrates' approach can be quite curative if you try to stay open-minded and honest. Like he said, he puts up a mirror. He's clumsy and ridiculous sometimes, probably drunk too hehe, but still he detects egos, lies and reveals them. Plus he never talks about himself, he only reflects. Just like a mirror. Maybe I'm just using him to reinforce my story of how I'm more open-minded and conscious than everyone. But I think I'm quite able to watch my ego through the most ruthless magnifying mirror and still kind of like myself anyway. He told me how I was a deranged sick twisted manipulator who's life is a fucking joke. And I agree. I'm not complaining about it, I'm just trying to accept how primitive and decieving I really am. If you found yourself repeatedly opposing, fighting or ignoring Socrates, then maybe you're not ready to look at yourself in a mirror. And maybe I'm just tricking myself into thinking "I'm the one who passed the test" just to elevate myself above everyone. But still, I think it's worth searching for a lesson here. Try to read his messages again. Not as if you were looking at a monkey throwing shit in a cage. But as if you were a monkey yourself, throwing shit on a mirror.

@Lorcan My utopia is a technological one. I hope we can transcend death, along with other biological limitations, by gradually becoming robots. Then from robots, the next step is super-intelligent nano-robotic neural networks. Also, somewhere in the meantime, we could merge the minds of all humans into one single consciousness. Then when we'll feel like expanding even more, we could take all the atoms on earth and make them participate to our computing power. Then the solar system. Then maybe other stars. If we get there, we might still strive for an expansion of some kind. I don't know what it would be, but I suspect something along the lines of peace, connection or self-awareness. And I'm not even talking about all the fun we'd have already had from virtual worlds, mind altering and updating our software through advanced stages of enlightenment and development no one can even dream of today. To summarize, I think society should head towards the direction it's already been heading for millennia: The unfolding of everyone's possibilities, as well as the harmonizing of everyone's intentions.

@Consept I can totally relate to this. When I meditate, the absolute most frequent thoughts that come to my mind go along the lines of: "Am I meditating right?" "Am I mindful right now?" "How can I be mindful of my internal voice if my internal voice decides what I'm mindful of?" "How can I focus on the self if the self allows focus in the first place?" Along with other doubts and paradox-fighting like this... And those thoughts are the exact symptom of my egoistic need to become enlightened. In a sense, they're the biggest obstacle I have. But maybe they're also the only help I have. What can possibly motivate you to be mindful except a desire to be mindful? Maybe this desire is the only tool you have, and maybe you have to use it in order to finally discover a completely new and mysterious tool, which is enlightenment...

@SkyPanther @Isle of View Hey guys ! Great debate by the way. Both instructive and hilarious. The more I think about it, the more I see how an enlightened person could behave like @Socrates does. He's pretty efficient at spotting lies and egos. At least he was in my case. Maybe he spent so much time observing his own ego that he actually became enlightened. I don't see why an enlightened being would necessarily say nice things to people on a forum. What do you think ?

Yeah. Life is a piece of art, not a cage. You create it, you're not stuck in it.

Easily ? ...

@nightlight My advice here is to not have an answer to that question you're asking us. Hold in your mind the possibility of you being kind as well as the possibility of you being weak. Don't fall for one or the other just yet. Get squeezed between the two. Suffer. Feel the pain of confusion. Maybe something good will come out of this. Maybe not. But you don't care. Just make yourself confused as fuck for the sake of truth.

Another way of seeing the issue is on my mind since yesterday : "Focus on aligning yourself with truth and with your highest values. Focus on growing yourself. Stop giving a fuck about convincing, about other people's growth or about how many people's lives you've changed. Maybe you'll end up helping people some day, but don't even think about it. That's not relevant to your own growth at all." Obviously, the way I said it makes it sound easy to make the shift. To me at least, it's actually fucking hard to let go of the desire to be "the one who helps people". I'm deeply addicted to other people seeing me as a good person. Even this very comment is a symptom of my dysfunction. And even this last sentence.

@Huz88 I think you should slowly transform your life until you get to a point where you don't need to be polite or fake a smile ever again. Either because you become so genuinely kind and happy that you can always smile and care for others in an authentic way. Or because you become so financially and emotionally independent that you don't need to make a good impression on anyone in order to get what you want in life. But hopefully both

@JevinR Some say you should get a healthy ego before you get rid of it. It's kind of like a house. Repair it and make it pretty before trying to sell it.

@7oo13adSee ? He did the exact same thing we talked about, right after we talked about it. He always does that. At least he's not being an asshole like I am right now

@Isle of View Please don't encourage me. I'm such an attention whore lol

@SkyPanther I would never teleport myself, and as soon as the anti-sleep pill comes out, I'm going to take one every day. Because I fear death. And both sleep and teleportation kill you every time you do them. That's why I really hope Leo's enlightenment stuff is real. Because I started being scared of going to sleep sometimes. And it really is an awful feeling. If enlightenment is possible though, that erases the whole issue. Sleep, teleportation, brain implants, mind uploading, mind merging. All that stuff is just fine if you're enlightened. But it's horrible if you're not.

Here's a summary of what I think about this topic now. There are two main steps you should follow when you share your insight with someone. Try to know if the person is open-minded. If they are, then blatantly report your opinion without any filter whatsoever. Don't even do step 2. Try to estimate the person's level of consciousness. Then try to give an advice that is just a bit higher on the consciousness spectrum.

@SkyPanther I'm able to say it. But am I really aware of it ? And you just gave me rep for that comment. So it's safer to say I'm just saying smart stuff in order to get rep. Isn't it? I feel like I never really stopped playing the validation game since I'm born. I just became good at denying that I'm playing it. See? I'm doing it again. I can't escape it. My life feels fucking worthless right now. But I still love the pain.

I love that honesty right there! It's fucking refreshing. On some level I want your approval so much because I see you as a clever dude. I'm also probably searching for a paternal figure in you, so that I can live up to your expectation, because my father never gave me the attention I wanted. But when I think about it for more than 2 seconds, do I really consciously care about that whole approval game ? Nope haha. I'm just a mindless stimulus response animal. Even insulting myself like this is just another way of feeling better about myself. How sad...