Lord Bwyra

Instead of debate, each party should share what they know and have a conversation. Before proceeding from here, each has to fully understand each other's position. This can be done with friendliness and humor. No need for anyone getting upset or claiming higher ground based on one's own views or expertise. When done right, a bridge is formed and thinking happens "together". You arrive at conclusions together. You contemplate possible gaps in logic, together. The debate that is left is between that which is and that which isn't or that which we do not yet know about. I feel that this kind of approach (which I learned from Jiddu Krishnamurti btw, he'd often start his talks this way) would be much more productive than the formal philosophical debate where you try to annihilate your opponent. Gandhi also once said that if you cannot improve silence then it is best to not say anything. This is also a viable option.

What could be more fun than talking about who’s enlightened or not? It’s like a high consciousness version of office gossip next to the cooler at lunch break. It makes life so fun. I recall Sam writing in his Waking Up book that he did NOT reach stream entry. He kept on hitting a wall to the point of frustration (even after lengthy silent retreats) until he backed off and went back home to become a neuroscientist and write books about how terrible religion is. Since then it seems he's drifted further and further away from his enlightenment journey. As a popular science/philosophy author he might be fairly accomplished and he might even be a "good meditator" but when it comes to realizing the fundamental nature of reality, he seems to be quite lost. Like most of his fellow American pop meditation pro-science evangelists. I used to be really into atheism and science and all that debating shit but I now think that is all a complete waste of time and just ego mind games. Leo, I wouldn't necessarily confuse "grossly underestimating the depth of this thing" to some low-level form of rationalism. This argument can easily become a tautology and fall apart. Otherwise what you say wouldn't make any sense Could it not be that God/Truth is the ultimate form of logic? There seems to be a mathematical order to nature and it's underlying mechanics. It's always nice to chit chat about the semantics of enlightenment and all these opinions about stream entry, or what buddha really meant or said or how my god is better than your god (ie. my dick is bigger than your dick) but at the end of the day... if you meet the Buddha (or Brahman or Sam Harris or Leo) on the road (or in your head), kill him. Gauge his eyes out with your nails and feed them to starving vultures. No mercy. None. There comes a time when all the methods and so-called enlightenment maps of history become useless and all this "chitchat" is just flies buzzing around steaming turds. That's when you know you are truly in the dark. And finally getting somewhere! No hands will be held at that point to proceed. There will be no one to ask for advice because words won't be able to convey anything anymore. You will know what being alone really means (and how relentless your ego is). If your ego does take control at this point, you will most likely be in a world of hell and you will know what insanity feels like. And if you are not sufficiently prepared, you will end up in a mental hospital or dead. This is what Jim Morrison meant when he sang about a "roman wilderness of pain". A few years later he was found dead in a bathtub in Paris. What a shame because I think The Doors were really getting somewhere after that first album. Too much too soon for the sensitive clown who became a legend. Lady Gaga also sang about it in her pop masterpiece "Edge of Glory". But she never understood what she was singing about. I have been on that edge and in the wilderness of pain but I was also not prepared and had to come back for oxygen. Somehow I'm still alive and slowly getting back to sanity (or so I tell myself). But even I know that you never really come back once you've met the real dragon.

Matt, I really enjoyed reading your post because the words could've easily come from me. And I think many people will feel the same. So keep writing and engaging and sharing your life and opening your heart and mind. That is a start in the right direction. You are already on the right path my friend. There is a lot of wisdom and opportunity in what you have written and I hope you can read it to yourself as an outsider who is looking at you because that outsider is your higher self. We are all here on this great forum Leo has built, coming together to share and push each other and be the ones to say, enough bullshit, time to get serious. Or get some support when we are just noble warriors seeking shelter from the storm. I would forget about supplements and these artificial quick-fix boosts and even what the studies say. Become your own clinic! And only study things that will really take humanity and society (ie. you) to the next level. Long term. Life purpose. That's what Leo's course is all about (i just started it and it's incredible). Not some fad marketing gimmicks. Maybe they help some people temporarily but I also see people taking all kinds of pills and potions so they can continue their shitty life and not go insane and not drive trucks into crowds of strangers. They secretly hate their wives and jobs and their depression is their greatest friend, desperately trying to tell them to not live like this. Yet the doctors don't care, they just give them some pills so they can go back to the factory and grind away for another day without the suffering. Those doctors hate their jobs too and probably take even more meds to stay sane and to be able to practice such low level medicine. Who would practice medicine this way? Of course we have all these "health food" alternative shops now opening up everywhere selling something that's seemingly lighter and more ecological. Maybe it is but one has to be careful here to not be misled. I'm afraid it's all just a scam. Even veganism, organic, yoga, etc have become multi-billion dollar industries, often making empty promises. The problem with that is, those things are free and don't need special expensive packages. People get too attached to labels and ideologies and start seeing the forest for the trees and lose sight of what matters. True health and happiness and success and love is not expensive as long as there are libraries and trees and beautiful animals and people around. If I was king, those things would be free and required for all citizens on earth. When those basics are not met, we get big problems and very angry humans roaming around the planet grumpily with bitterness and violence and revenge in their hearts. The mind become a fog and the body follows and... well, just look around. Right now me and you are talking here on our fancy expensive computers and lightning speed internets. But the brotherhood is free. These words are exchanged in the spirit of unconditional love, gratitude and service. Right? I pretty much gave up my left nut for Leo's course to be able to pay for it, but it didn't feel like I paid anything because what he is doing is priceless. That money was just a gesture to show my support and respect for him so he can continue doing what he does. Btw, I'm not perfect yet either except in the process of how my life has unfolded, which is always perfection because how else could things be as they are now? It's taken me forever to see what works and doesn't. I learn slow. I'm stubborn. My demons sometimes take control. The inner child cries for mommy and everyone to just do as i say. Waawaawaa!! Today is one of those days when I'm questioning many choices. Just had a coffee and I loved it. Feel so focused and clear now. It's a drug though. Last night I had wine and potato chips and went to bed feeling sick and asking myself why I put poisons into my body. I've had periods where I'm totally clean but inside I was suffering so much I became blind and my old ways sucked me back in so that pseudo-cleanliness was a trap. I feel like life has anal raped me with a mountain and I'm finally learning that the mountain was me all along. Anyways, just keep on inflitrating and immersing yourself in TRUTH (that which is and doesn't need studies to be proven because it can only be experienced). Gravitate towards this truth and learn how to identify it in everything you do whether it's eating, talking, thinking, breathing, jerking off or taking a walk. Let truth kill you and then live as a nobody who is like a chameleon, only create identities which will serve your greater purpose in life and the one we all share. This process will guide us home to here and now. This is all part of the process, the master's path. We are still young and foolish. Well, I'm 34, but I really feel like a teenager. That's a good and bad thing I suppose I'm hungrier than ever to grow tall and find people like the ones here to build a new army with and conquer the world with love and hope and beauty and understanding and forgiveness and healthy dose of madness. You know, all that jesus/buddha shit... Those guys would be locked up and institutionalised if they were alive now! I better go meditate now before I start tripping on my own kool-aid

I think it is erroneous to only associate yoga with certain practices in India, as if they have the monopoly on these matters. Although I do agree that the western gym yoga thing is not really what it's about either. Yes, there are some great wisdom to be learned from those ancient teachings no doubt. But times have changed and we have to upgrade all these old systems that were created before sitting on chairs all day and staring at computers. Yoga simply means unity with God (mind, body, soul). And it helps when our bodies and minds are relaxed and agile and strong so that life and love can flow through while we (as god) watch the great show. I think it's wise to learn the principles and fundamentals of all the most useful spiritual technologies and then create your own system based on your own findings and experiences. Integrate everything you learn from all aspects of life so that every moment of your life becomes yoga and meditation and an opportunity to live as an enlightened being. Use your breath and edges of physical/mental/spiritual comfort as a compass. Adjust course accordingly. The eight limbs mentioned earlier is a pretty elaborate way to proceed and is not that different to Buddha's noble eightfold path. I've also experimented with the five tibetans which can be a good basic routine to do in the mornings before meditation. They are just simple dynamic poses similar to the sun salutations.

You can make everything part of your spiritual practice. There are many ways to exercise besides going to the gym and taking selfies of yourself. You have cornered yourself into a false dichotomy; gym+selfies vs zero motivation to exercise. I think this offers you two challenges: 1) Contemplate on the deeper meaning of physical activity, keeping the body strong, agile, flexible, mobile, endurance in heart, lungs, etc. Think about how you would feel if you were missing some limbs. Be grateful that you can walk and jump and run and play and fuck like a God. 2) Practice mindfulness as you do your chosen exercise so that you are performing the movements with grace and beauty and admiration for what the human body is capable of. Align your breath and focus and smile (if you are at the gym you can practice your war cry when the reps get too heavy). Perhaps try some new form of exercise whether it's yoga, running, swimming, climbing, martial arts, calisthenics, gymnastics. Take a class or online course. Just make sure you keep challenging your body and mind. (Sex can be great too if you find the right partner who's into sportfucking!) One of the biggest mistakes for inexperienced spiritual seekers is that they think that certain practices like meditation require a specific setting. Or that they have to go to a cave in india to get enlightened. But true spirituality and self-actualization work is practiced everywhere, every moment you are alive. The opportunities for growth and enlightenment are endless. All the best

Based on my experience, i think most of them are a complete waste of money. Last month i did a 30-day trial of 5-htp (100mg), tyrosine (1000mg) + fish oil (2000mg), bvitamin complex per day. I watched videos and read online articles where people said their depressions were cured from taking these. I got prescribed anti-depressants from psychiatrist. Told the doctor to shove the prescription up his ass and went my own route. After the month was over, I didn't really feel any different. It's now been 5 days without them and still don't feel any different. Although I'm still taking the omega3s and bvits because the jars had much more pills in them. I honestly think that if you eat a healthy whole foods diet, drink enough water, get plenty of exercise, sunshine, fresh air and you are living your life purpose, there's no need for supplements or drugs of any kind. Not quite there yet but that is my ideology and I intend to get enlightened and become a millionaire and save humanity from itself

@Toby It has some similar characteristics yes in the sense that it is not backed by any hard assets. But since it's not controlled or supplied or authorized by government, I don't think it's accurate to think of it as a traditional fiat currency. I suppose there are different ways to look at it. Some even call bitcoin "digital gold". But even gold is worthless these days. You can't pay for flights or coffee with it. So it's perceived worth is just like FIAT or cryptos; totally arbitrary and based on a value agreement between those that use it.

Any crypto investors/traders on these forums? On July 17 I decided to finally invest in bitcoin and other alt coins. I don't like the idea of "making money" when it comes to business but in the world of stocks and investing, making money is the name of the game. I decided to take this seriously and use it to fund my future lifestyle. All my relatives and friends think I've finally lost it but what the hell do they know right? They worship the status quo and think this is all a big hustle and con. They would rather invest in Facebook or forex or some other FIAT crap which I believe has no future. My total investement so far is about 560€ and in the 19 days since I've already made 250€ which is not bad for a beginner. And I haven't really done any margin trading yet which I'm still learning about. I'm gonna start on monday and I think I can make some daily profits if I do it right since the currencies are so volatile. Just gotta ride the waves. I'm using Kraken for my online wallet, Poloniex for trading and Electrum for my computer wallet. The beauty of trading in Poloniex is that it's all done with Bitcoin which means that all your capital is going up with an extra boost as long as your investments either stay neutral or prevail. Why? Because bitcoin is going up up and more up. This cannot be said for traditional stock markets because FIAT currencies suffer inflation if you let them sit in a bank account somewhere. I wish I would've started earlier this year and even a few years ago when many friends told me about it. Of course I didn't listen to them because I was focused on other shit. I could've been a millionaire by now, easily. The times are changing friends. This is some badass new technology that is happening in the world of money and economics so i suggest you educate yourself and get on board. At least buy a bitcoin or two and store it away. In a few years you could be very wealthy. I personally think that in the next 10 years the crypto currencies will take over and those who get in on it now will be financially secure for life. As far as I know, the best strategy right now is to grow basic bitcoin capital and then buy some of the top alt coins like ripple, litecoin, ethereum, nem, monero and let those investments grow. Once you have that, you can start making your daily bread with the margin trading (or use those to build your long term investments, which is what I'm doing now). I'm still a learning the ropes but would be happy to share what I have learned so far with anyone who is interested. And if you have more experience and insights or other investment tips regarding this, please share. I'm gonna become a crypto millionaire or die trying

Okay. I'm gonna say some things that you might not like. So here goes. I had a look at your journal and I honestly think you should tone down on the meditation stuff and go bang at least a 100 hot girls. You will love it. Don't listen to people who've never done that and say that this will never fulfill you. They don't know what they're talking about. It DOES fulfill you, especially if the sex is great and the girls are really beautiful and desire you equally. You will carry those memories with you forever while other "monks" are secretly watching porn on their mobiles pretending to get enlightened. But more importantly, learn the skill that this requires (it's not even about the notches although that's fun too). Otherwise this is gonna drive you nuts whether you become a monk or not. You clearly have some strong desires that are dying to get out. Because you are so young I really don't think it's healthy to just get all spiritual about it and suppress them. That will be trouble down the road. You will die of dick cancer or something. I say this based on my own life experience. I'm 34 and in a completely different situation now. And I've had enough sex to satisfy that urge (although it's never fully satisfied). So for me it's okay to put sex and all that aside temporarily and focus on other stuff. I see guys my age still chasing tail and getting nowhere in life because they have nothing else. That's the other extreme and equally pathetic as a 19 year old who's meditating for 3 hours per day but secretly wants to get laid, lol You are 19 for god sakes, go out and have some fun. Get a nice body. Make some serious money online or become a bartender. And get rid of these bullshit limiting beliefs like thinking you're a "semi-loner" who has no "real desire for friendships". It's all nonsense in your head. If you really believe that crap, obviously you have gained zero beneficial insights from your meditation practice. And you have failed to integrate the meditative state with your time off the cushion, which is the most important thing. Start practicing meditation when you talk to some cute girl. That's REAL meditation, not some escape from being a man of the world who wants to be fucking awesome. Spend the next 10 years of your life traveling, learning people skills, making friends, learning hard and soft skills in life, build businesses, help other people, have some relationships, read, study, grow, learn, fail, break the law if you have to, rob some banks, mug old ladies (just kidding about the last two), do drugs, get in fights, explore possibilities with sex, art, love, careers, different paths and methods and ideologies. HURT yourself. Get some scars. Win. Lose. Love! When you are 30, do the Life Purpose course again and then you can start thinking about the monk stuff. Otherwise, all the meditation in the world will not do shit for you. And even if you become a monk, your life will be completely wasted because how can you communicate with anyone when you don't know shit about shit. You won't help anyone become more conscious like that. You reached out for a reason. What you have been doing until now is not working otherwise you wouldn't be reading this. Think about your life long term. When you're 80 and sitting down to write your life story, you want some good material to work with Now go out into the world, abandon your current "identity" and fail. Embarrass yourself. Degrade yourself. Just fucking destroy that SELF you have worked so hard at building and are so desperately trying to transcend with your 3 hour meditations, lol. Be someone else for a few years. You are nothing. You are nobody. You know nothing. You are a baby bird flapping it's wings trying to fly. You can thank me later although if you are anything like me when I was 19, you will ignore everything I just said and even all the Life Purpose courses or spiritual masterpiece books in the world will never help you because you are so stubborn. It's 2017. I honestly think the monks and nuns and other religious idiots are the most deluded people on this planet especially if they have no real life experience. Zero contribution besides their little village or commune (and yes I've been to some like Plum Village in Thailand which is awesome but I felt really bad for all the young aspiring monks especially when I saw all the cute nuns there!!). They are not happy, just dumb and ignorant in their own little worlds. And uneducated and getting a terribly lopsided, unbalanced view of the world. If that is what you want, go for it. I wish you well brother regardless of what you decide. Let me know how it goes.

No worries friend.

Where there is hatred within, train your mind to sow love. Where there is injury, sow pardon. Where there is doubt, sow faith. Where there is despair, sow hope. Where there is darkness, sow light. and where there is sadness, sow joy. Do not so much seek to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, or to be loved as to love. For it's in giving that we receive, it's in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it's by letting go of the concept of a separate "self" that we are born to eternal life. - the prayer of Saint Francis of Assisi

Spiral, on a different note... I noticed a typo in your signature: You probably meant: You can't be enlightened, no one can.

Hi Spiral, I think you missed my point entirely. There's nothing wrong with "using" people for sex as long as the consent is mutual, people are enjoying themselves, etc. Or if you pay for it. That's fine. Sex is awesome. Men love it, women love it. Win-win. We use each other in one way or another anyways whether it's sex or something else. I just have issues with people using lazy, shallow vocabulary that is not helpful to anyone and on top of that hiding behind misleading euphemisms. It's one of those things we can control completely and has a huge effect on what kind of impact we make on the world and those around us as well as our own state of mind and focus. There's also no such thing as a pick up artist and the whole idea of "pickup" is pretty much a huge scam. It was just a marketing term invented by a bunch of losers who couldn't get laid and probably still can't, selling snake oil to other desperate losers who also can't get laid and still can't. It's not rocket science and you don't need some 9 step method or seminars to get laid. You just need to get your life in order, good physical shape, social life, hobbies, sense of purpose, positive attitude, sense of humor, education, money, etc. There's absolutely no need to learn some arbitrary "pickup" unless you want to make other men richer. That's my point. But it seems many guys have really been brainwashed by this non-industry. But as mentioned, I was one of those guys and it did get my on the path of personal development and learning about how marketing works.

I empathize with you and I think just getting these thoughts out and interacting with others will put you on a productive path. These are important questions and things to figure out. I think we would all like to help you a little more if you can give us some more details about who you are and where you are at in life. There have already been some good posts here but there seems to be a refusal on your part to open up more and interact with us. That's okay too if you just wanted some quick advice. I'm just saying, we're here for you so feel free to get a little deeper with your desires and dreams. That's the free option. Or take Leo's course on Life Purpose because that's all about figuring out "what you really want" on the deepest level possible (or that I've ever come across anywhere else). Have you done the course yet? Are you planning to? I'm sorry to harp on this again but I really think calling this pickup is intellectually cowardly, not to mention derogatory towards women who are not prostitutes. It's also a way to conveniently brush aside what it really means to attract the opposite sex. Instead of thinking about what you can get or take (ie. pick up) what about focusing on what you can give to the next attractive girl you see? Can you inspire her? Can you change her life? Can give her an unforgettable experience whether sexually, spiritually or intellectually? Can you make her laugh and smile? Can you help her get what SHE wants? If you have nothing to give and just want to use a girl as a 10 second fuckdoll, then perhaps it's time to go back to your self-actualization drawing board (unless she is okay with that which is why I suggested prostitutes). Otherwise the only thing you are feeding is your ego. Sure it's just words, but I think the words and concepts we use are very important in order to set ourselves up for success and put us on the right track. (Btw, the same goes for "making money" which is equally shallow and puts all emphasis on the wrong things. But that's another post...)

I respectfully disagree. Unless you have male model looks, most chicks are still looking for boyfriend material (even if they want sex too). Not saying you won't get laid there, I just don't think it's the most efficient option. I deleted my tinder app because it was too addictive and time consuming. Go out to a bar or yoga class and make some bold moves if you refuse to pay for sex. And remember my holy trinity, otherwise you won't get anywhere. Although if you have approach anxiety, you will not get anywhere with the ladies and you have bigger problems than getting laid. Why do guys use the term 'pickup'? What the heck is that even supposed to mean? Unless you pickup hookers off the street, you're not getting anything but your own hand and saliva if you are still thinking that this is how the game works. In fact, I'm surprised Leo even uses it. Lets call this what it is and skip the bullshit euphemisms.

Then hire a prostitute/escort. They'll give you exactly what you need without all that "work". No shame in that, that's why they exist. If you don't have the money for it then you're gonna have to swallow your own bullshit, get off your ass and apply what I wrote before. Otherwise you become that loser who wants things to change but refuses to change himself. So what's it gonna be friend?

I think the term "pickup" is really silly. It's a typical western reductionist way to look at an area of your life without really understanding what exactly you are trying to do. Like with almost everything these days, most people (guys and girls) are just running around like headless chickens looking for the next fix, the next paycheck, obsessed with feeling good and happy and adjusting to the normalcy of society. If that is what you want then I honestly think you are not really ready for any kind of self-actualization. But by all means, get it out of your system. I used to kinda suck with women when I was younger. I had some flings and girlfriends even in my teens and then read The Game and got caught up in all that PUA nonsense in my early-mid 20s. But I never really bought any of it as it just felt to artificial somehow. I eventually did become pretty good with women and had great sex and fucked some pretty hot girls and had some intense relationships along the way. It was fun but it takes a lot of time and money and energy. It can get boring pretty quickly, believe it or not. As of writing this, I haven't had sex or dated for almost one year and for me that's completely fine. To be fair, the "pua nonsense" did lead me down a path of personal growth, business, spirituality, etc and some of the books mentioned in The Game had a huge impact on me personally e.g. I AM THAT. I also think Neil Strauss is a fantastically bold writer when it comes to mating, sex and all that. So it's not all bad. His last book is pretty interesting too. If you want to just attract a girl (whether sex or relationship, the process is the same) you need to convey to her somehow that you are an alpha male who can dominate her. That means being aggressive and confident even if you are faking it (they can't tell). This takes some work and study to understand what this really means. You can do it in various ways or combinations of the following: physique, attitude, intellect, money, fame, social status, etc. The more of those you have, the more women will want you wherever you go (this is totally independent of geography as people are the same everywhere). All the PUA methods in the world won't do shit if you are out of shape, broke, shy, a negative moaner, smell bad, have zero social skills, have loser friends or no knowledge or life wisdom or witty humor. It doesn't matter what you say or do, nobody wants to bang a loser like this, especially a girl with some class and beauty. Would you want a girl with those qualities? If you would and your standards are low, then this becomes much easier in some ways (although those loser girls are more insecure about one night stands and often will settle for any basic chump who notices them to have a family with and to kill their loneliness). Just get your life in order, become successful and awesome and strong and handsome, you will be a dream for most girls as those kinds of guys are rare (I don't just mean some gymrat "brodude" pseudo-alphas). Unless you have some physical deformity, this shouldn't be a problem for most guys. Even if you are on the path and passionate about your life purpose (get Leo's course if you don't know what that means), you will be fired up and girls and people in general respond positively to that. Like attracts like so losers attract losers, fat people attract fat people, hot people attract hot people, etc, etc. Why do you think famous people mostly date other famous people? That said, I completely understand if you just want to get laid, have some fun, bang a bunch of hot college girls and feel some approval and even have some girlfriends before you get serious with your wealth and consciousness work. As I said, perhaps its just best to get it out of your system. Then again, why not do both and see all this "pickup" stuff more holistically as I suggested in the first paragraph. Who knows, maybe that might even be your life purpose, to penetrate the world or "fuck her with God", as David Deida talks about... If you do want a method (and this goes for both sexes and all sexual preferences), here is the most deceptively simple one: Look good. Feel good. Smell good. Master that holy trinity and the women will gravitate to you like a herd of wild horny monkeys. And all you have to do is give them what they want. Easier said than done of course If you have any questions, just shoot.