Roxane

So maybe Compassion and Love are not really necessary to get enlightened? Probably I don't grab correctly what Compassion and Love are. Or maybe they feel compassion for the suffering of these animals, but they have a level of development where they don't need to try to change things, like @Michael569 is saying. I still think that veganism is a really good step for growth and enables moving up from Orange to Green.

Yeah it's true, most people don't want to know, but I have the impression that things are improving, don't you think? Only 2 months ago, I actually also thought that animal proteins were somehow necessary and that vegans always looked like skinny hippies. Hearing people speaking up about the reality of veganism has been a good thing for me, I listened and I changed. All these vegan doctors are trying hard to spread the information, and they don't get much profit from it. And the animal activists like Gary Yourofsky or Bite Size Vegan, they dedicated their whole life to educate people on what is actually happening to these animals. I'm glad I could learn about that thanks to them. I am starting to talk about veganism to my family and friends, and I can see that they listen. Like SFRL and the 2 bodybuilders of the video, they are not convinced, but they tried, and they keep an open door.

Agree, a little meat consumption is probably still healthy, even though it is not needed. But my question was more related to compassion for animals. For example, Leo said earlier "in most cases eating animals is unecological, lazy, selfish, and unconscious." In most cases? In which case is it not? Free range, organic or pasture fed animals still go to slaughterhouses and suffer a great deal. You always need to separate the baby from the cow in order to get the milk. To get eggs, you need only the laying hens, so the male baby chicks are ground alive. I could not find any way of killing an animal that was not involving suffering. If you do not need meat or dairy or eggs to be healthy, and you reached a level of consciousness high enough to overcome your cravings, why still eating animal products? I'm wondering if it's not simply a lack of knowledge and direct observation of what animals are experiencing.

@Little Plant @Spacious @Socrates @RossE @Michael569 Thanks very much Little Plant for all the quotes, very inspiring. Coming back to the original topic linking veganism with growth: I looks like many people who achieved enlightment, or at least a high level of development, are not vegan. Like the Dalai Lama teaching Compassion and Love, and still eating meat. That just sounds very illogical to me. Any insights why this is happening?

@SFRL Wow. I didn't expect that I would actually admire what these guys did. 0:40 “When we decided to go vegetarian, it was for all right reasons, it was for animal cruelty, all that stuff, it was an emotional response. We didn't start being vegetarian because we thought it was healthier” 1:25 “Even though we didn't lose any strength, we did lose a considerable amount of muscles” 1:45 “Our brand is our body, so fuck it, (…), sorry” 2:19 “We still have our plant based diet, but we will consume meat occasionally, maybe 3 times a week” Personally, I switched to a vegan diet because I realized it was the healthiest alternative long term, and I started to dig more into animal cruelty only after that. So I think that what they do is great. Respect. David Carter, an american football player, had actually a similar issue as them when he went vegan, he explains it in this interview of Vegan Food Share YouTube channel "Vegan Football Player David Carter shares his secrets.": 3:25 “When I did go Vegan, I lost 40 lbs in that first 2 months. I was 305 and I got down to 265. And being a professional athlete and a defensive lineman, you have to be 300lbs (…) I got my weight back up to 295. But it definitely made me a better athlete, not only was I stronger, I was faster, but I didn't have any health issues” 5:32 “How do other players react when you try to get them to go vegan? Well, one of the first things I say to the players is that the average death of a football player is 56 years old, and that's a crazy statistics, and it's mainly due to heart disease and stroke, heart attacks, and those are food related illnesses. And I tell them that most players are dumb and are done playing when they are 30-32” He speaks more about his health issues in this other interview from Bite Size Vegan "300 lb VEGAN NFL Football Player?! | David Carter Interview" You could have a look at other very impressive athletes (cherry picked from Mic The Vegan video "Can Vegans Be Top Athletes?"): David Haye, boxer Kendrick Farris, olympic weightlifter Patrik Baboumian, strongman Torre Washington, Jim Morris, bodybuilders

@SFRL Indeed diets with very low amounts of meat (like 1 or 2 portions per week) proved being among the healthiest, like the traditional Okinawans It may be because you ate too much dairy products, or maybe you didn't eat enough calories from starches (potatoes, rice, beans...) You could have a look at some vegan athletes YouTube channels, they show what they eat in a day, general lifestyle, workouts and nutritional tips: Jon Venus is in his 20s or 30s and Guilt Free TV is in his 40s

@Visitor Good to hear! Always good to be conscious of body sensations, but if you feel hungry, there is no need to restrain yourself on a plant based diet, you can eat the portion you need until you feel satisfied. Dr McDougall has made a free ebook very quick and easy to read and giving meal examples, just search on "Dr. McDougall’s Color Picture Book: “Food Poisoning”" Also agree with Michael569's comment above, Dr Neal Barnard is amazing, you could check especially his 20min TEDx talk, it's a fun watch: "Tackling diabetes with a bold new dietary approach: Neal Barnard at TEDxFremont"

@Max_V Yes it is often a very big deal to change the way of eating in a family, they are often very defensive about it. I'm in the process too. Good luck to you about it in the future. I see your signature "May all beings be happy, May all beings be at peace, May all beings be free", so it will definitely be worth it for you to go vegan at some point in order avoid animal suffering. I just watched this 7min video from Bite Size Vegan "The Nicest Way To Die [THIS VIDEO WILL CHANGE YOU!!]", maybe you could watch it when you decide to go ahead and give a try to veganism, but be careful, it is graphic.

@Fidelio I also still believed that only a couple of months ago, but I found out that the myth of the "incomplete" plant proteins has been debunked. Dr Greger for NutritionFacts.org in his video "The Protein Combining Myth": 2:05 “It is true that some plant proteins are relatively low in certain essential amino-acids. So, about 40 years ago, the myth of 'protein combining' came into vogue. Literally, the February 75 issue of Vogue magazine, The concept was that we needed to eat 'complementary proteins' together, for example rice and beans, to make up for their relative shortfalls. This fallacy was refuted decades ago. The myths that plant proteins are incomplete, that plant proteins are not as good, that one has to combine proteins at meals – these have all been dismissed by the nutrition community as myths decades ago. But many in medicine evidently didn't get the memo. Dr. John McDougall called out the American Heart Association for 2001 publication that questioned the completeness of plant proteins. Thankfully though, they changed and acknowledged now that plant proteins can provide all the essential amino acids, no need to combine complementary proteins. It turns out that our body is not stupid, it maintains pools of free amino acids that can be used to do all the complementing for us.” Dr Neal Barnard in his 20min TEDx talk "Power Foods for the Brain | Neal Barnard | TEDxBismarck": 12:52 “Back in 2009, my organization, the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, went to the Department of Agriculture. We said 'this is important, let's throw out the pyramid' – the pyramid was a nice shape, but it had a meat group, and it had a dairy group, despite the fact that people who don't eat meat or dairy products happen to be healthier than people who eat them. And also, who eats off a pyramid anyway? We eat off a plate. So we devised a plate that said fruits and grains and legumes (that's the bean's group), and vegetables. And those should be the staples. Well, we gave this to the USDA in 2009, and we didn't hear back from them. So, in 2011, we sued the Federal Government. The Physicians Committee filed a lawsuit against the USDA simply to compel response. And did you see what the US government came out in 2011? I'm not taking any credit for this, but this is now US Government policy, it's called MyPlate, and it does look in some way similar to what we'd sent them a couple of years earlier. Fruits and grains and vegetables, and they have this thing called 'the protein group'. Now, the protein group could be meat, but it could be beans, or tofu, or nuts, or anything that's high in proteins, it doesn't have to be meat. In fact, there is no meat anymore in federal guidelines. There is a dairy group there, but, to their credit, soy milk counts, So, things are improving.”

@SFRL Dr McDougall observed that a High Carb Low Fat Vegan Diet prevents and even cures most chronic diseases, and he (and many other doctors) believes it is supposed to be the human diet. You could watch his 20min TEDx talk "The food we were born to eat: John McDougall at TEDxFremont": 4:11 “Realize these are people of the same genetics, same kind of work for over 100 years on the sugar plantation. Yet before my eyes as a doctor, I saw people living on rice and vegetables (no dairy, just a little bit of meat at most): trim, healthy, hardy people. No MS, no arthritis, no diabetes, no heart disease in that first generation of people living on those traditional diets. Then I watched the second generation get fatter and sicker as they abandoned starch. And then the third generation, which feared starch (rice, corn, potatoes), and took on meat and dairy in their diet, and oils – they got fat and sick just like every other american. “

@key It's a pity that veganism is still perceived as a cult or a kind of sect... Veganism doesn't need to be anything so special as a "layer to your identity" As you said, it is just healthier, better for the environment, and does not involve suffering. You could check out the video of Bite Size Vegan "Are All Vegans Alike? | The Cult of Veganism" It's a 4min piece presented with humor, and her conclusion is very simple “Go ahead and keep all your opinions, your personality, just stop being a dick to the animals – you don't have to become one of us" And veganism is not only a decision for yourself, it has broader consequences. Referring to Bite Size Vegan again in "Is Eating Animals A Personal Choice?" 0:52 The animal products industry is the most environmentally destructive force on the planet. 1:54 If you chose to eat animal products, then you should be aware of what those choices really entail 2:22 Short footage of animal slaughter

On bodybuilding workout and vegan diet, check out the Youtube channel of Jon Venus

High fat diets are dangerous in the long run, oils are increasing cancer and heart disease risks... A whole food plant based diet will help take care of your brain Check out the video "Power Foods for the Brain | Neal Barnard | TEDxBismarck"

Try a healthy plant based diet, especially replacing dairy/meat by soy products. You can check the scientific research in the 2min video of NutritionFacts.org "Waistline Slimming Food"

Agree with Outer, the ketogenic diet increases risks of heart disease, stroke and cancer over time. NutritionFacts.org is a really good source and shows you all the research. In the video "Reversing Diabetes with Food", at 1:48 you can see the recommended diet overview (not 100% plant based, but very low meat intake and no calorie restriction).